Obama has permenantly won me over with this comment!

[Nickelodeon]

I don't think we've had a candidate with a parent of color before.

God forbid! All hell would break loose!

[sandy]

No. It's just an interesting statistic showing how we're becoming more diverse. I forgot about Sharpton and Jackson though. I never took either of them seriously as candidates.

People are taking Obama seriously.

[Buffalo Roam]

isn't a little outlandish that you complain that kerry did not release his discharge papers and you support a man who no one can find evidence to prove he served.

CBS News seem to know that the Service records of the President were released.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in600470.shtml


To make that an issue after all these years seemed silly to me until the White House released Mr. Bush's military service records late Friday on the eve of Valentine's Day and at the beginning of the President's Day weekend, records that on inspection prove nothing.

[sandy]

Another thing about Barack HUSSEIN Obama I don't get. He is crucifying the "religious right" saying it is ruining the country. How about HIS "religious left"? He follows a (seperatist/divisive) preacher who is pro-black this and pro-black that. If a white candidate followed a preacher who was pro-white anything, HE would be called a racist.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200702090009

[pragmathen]

sandy HUSSEIN, I have to agree with you on that point. Why can't they follow the candidate who is so pro-"not you"?--and by "not you", I mean "me" of course.

[sandy]

So you are defending his church and preacher? (The one he's trying to make us believe he follows, anyway. I still think he's a Muslim.)

[Kadark]

sandy: Why did you capitalize 'Hussein'? Is there a fucking problem with somebody running for president just because of their name? If a presidential candidate has a name other than Bob or George, is he any less qualified for the job? By addressing and capitalizing his middle name, you're only showing the cheap tactics that people like you use to refer to anybody who isn't a redneck conservative.

[spidergoat]

Tucker Carlson is a douche, but thanks for including your own rebuttal, Sandy. That link from media matters, which you were so kind to include, debunks the arguments you just made about Obama's church. Sometimes it's just too easy.

[sandy]

If Mitt Romney's middle name was HUSSEIN you can bet your sweet @ss I'd be capitalizing it too.

His name is part of who he is. Barack HUSSEIN Obama is hiding his middle name too. He is the son of Barack Hussein Obama Sr. Hussein is his family name. His grandmother is Sara Hussein Obama.

At one point he was Barack H. Obama. That's how he is listed in the Harvard Law Review when he was the president of the publication. He dropped the H and dumped his nickname of Barry too.

My Muslim friends tell me if your father is a Muslim, you're a Muslim and as far as Islamic law goes, you are a Muslim forever. Islamic law says: 'You try to get out, any Muslim has not only the right but the duty to kill you.'

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/20807.html

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archi...k_hussein.html

[sandy]

Tucker Carlson is a douche, but thanks for including your own rebuttal, Sandy. That link from media matters, which you were so kind to include, debunks the arguments you just made about Obama's church. Sometimes it's just too easy.

I posted it to explain in more detail what I was talking about. I figured you'd like the site.

[Kadark]

His name is part of who he is. Barack HUSSEIN Obama is hiding his middle name too. He is the son of Barack Hussein Obama Sr. Hussein is his family name. His grandmother is Sara Hussein Obama.

If you think something as unimportant as a name should be factored in with a person's credibility, then you're more ... than I ever imagined. I don't care what he, or his family, is named. A name is just what people are referred to; a person's true character and belief is so much deeper than a tag he was unconsciously given.

My Muslim friends tell me if your father is a Muslim, you're a Muslim and as far as Islamic law goes, you are a Muslim forever. Islamic law says: 'You try to get out, any Muslim has not only the right but the duty to kill you.'

My head is going to explode reading this bullshit. I can say that you're the most ... individual I have ever come across, let alone on these forums.

Quote to me from the QUR'AN where apostates are ordered to be killed. By Islamic law, you say? Islamic law is based from the Qur'an's teachings. Have you ever read the Qur'an? Ever get to the part that said, "LET THERE BE NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION"? I'm tired of you cherrypicking loving quotes from the Bible and completely disregarding everybody's faith or opinion.

sandy, you are ...
If you honestly think a person's NAME should judge who they are, then you have ...

[Buffalo Roam]

Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ارتداد, irtidād or ridda) is commonly defined as the rejection of Islam in word or deed by a person who has been a Muslim.

All five major schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that a sane male apostate must be executed. A female apostate may be put to death, according to some schools, or imprisoned, according to others.


Hadith reference
The Hadith (the body of quotes attributed to Muhammad and claimed eyewitnesses' accounts of Muhammad's life and deeds) includes statements that Muslim scholars such as Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid see as supporting the death penalty for apostasy. [4] Only those from Sahih Bukhari, which are considered reliable by most Muslims generally are given below:

"Allah's Apostle said, The blood of a Muslim, who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." 9:83:17
Narrated 'Ikrima: 'Ali burnt some people and this news reached ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as [Muhammad] said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for [Muhammad] said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'" 4:52:260
The legal regulation concerning the male and the female who reverts from Islam (apostates). Ibn 'Umar, Az-Zuhri and Ibrahim said, "A female apostate (who reverts from Islam), should be killed. And the obliging of the reverters from Islam (apostates) to repent. Allah said: — 'How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their belief and (after) they bore witness that the Apostle (Muhammad) was true, and that Clear Signs had come unto them? And Allah does not guide the wrong-doing people. As for such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of Allah, the Angels, and of all mankind. They will abide there-in (Hell). Neither will their torment be lightened nor it will be postponed (for a while). Except for those that repent after that and make amends. Verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Surely those who disbelieved after their belief, and go on adding to their defiance of faith, never will their repentance be accepted, and they are those who have gone astray.' (Sura 3:86-90) Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Chapter 2, p. 42-43.
57. Narrated 'Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'" 9:84:57
58. Narrated Abu Burda: Abu Musa said, "I came to [Muhammad] along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash'ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah's Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. [Muhammad] said, 'O Abu Musa (O 'Abdullah bin Qais!).' I said, 'By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.' As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or 'Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.'" [Muhammad] then sent Mu'adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu'adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Musa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'" 9:84:58
271. Narrated Abu Musa: A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle." 9:89:271
References to additional hadith, that have been labeled Sahih by Sunni, from other Imams on the punishment of death for apostasy are:

Sahih Muslim: Kitab Al-Qasama Chapter DCLXXIII When it is permissible to take the life of a Muslim
4152-4155, 898-900; Kitab Al-Imara Chapter DCCLVI, Number 4490, p. 1015 from Muslim, Imam, Sahih Muslim: Being Traditions of the Sayings and Doings of the Prophet Muhammad as Narrated by His Companions and compiled under the Title Al-Jami'-Us-Sahih, Translated by 'Abdul H. Siddiqi, Vol. III.

Sunan Abu Dawud: 4337 through 4341 from Dawud, Imam Abu, Sunan Abu Dawud: English Translations with Explanatory Notes by Prof. Ahmad Hasan, Sh. Muhamad Ashraf Publications, Lahore, Pakistan, First Edition 1984 (Reprinted 1996), Vol. III, Book XXXIII, Chapter 1605, p. 1212-1214
Sunan Ibn-I-Majah: # 2533,2534,2535 in Chapter No. 1 of Book of prescribed punishments. Ibn-I-Maja Al-Qazwini, Imam Abu Abdullah Muhammad B. Yazid, Sunan Ibn-I-Majah, Translated by Muhammad Tufail Ansari, Kazi Publications, Lahore, Pakistan, 1993, vol. IV.

[Kadark]

Buffalo Roam:

A hadith is a saying of Muhammad or a report about something he did. Over time, during the first few centuries of Islam, it became obvious that many so-called hadith were in fact spurious sayings that had been fabricated for various motives, at best to encourage believers to act righteously and at worse to corrupt believers' understanding of Islam and to lead them astray.

The principal hadith collection accepted by Ibadis is al-Jami'i al-Sahih, also called Musnad al-Rabi ibn Habib, as rearranged by Abu Ya'qub Yusuf b. Ibrahim al-Warijlani. A large proportion of its narrations are via Jabir ibn Zaid or Abu Yaqub; most are reported by Sunnis, while several are not. The total number of hadith it contains is 1005, and an Ibadi tradition recounted by al-Rabi has it that there are only 4000 authentic prophetic hadith. The rules used for determining the reliability of a hadith are given by Abu Ya'qub al-Warijlani, and are largely similar to those used by Sunnis; they criticise some of the companions (sahaba), believing that some were corrupted after the reign of the first two caliphs. The Ibadi jurists accept hadith narrating the words of Muhammad's companions as a third basis for legal rulings, alongside the Qur'an and hadith relating Muhammad's words.

Hadith is a huge hodgepodge collection of the alleged sayings of Muhammad which was compiled 200+ years AFTER the death of Muhammad. Traditional Islam derives most of its laws & rules from THIS body of information. Traditional Muslims believe that these Hadiths are indispensable to their religion & life. So much of importance is paid to these hadiths that very often the Koran is ignored.

And it is from these hadiths that we get extremely nonsensical & barbaric rules & laws like death penalty for adulterers & apostates (although the Koran does not advocate any such punishment), degradation of women, bizarre dress codes for women, killing of those who insult Muhammad, chopping of hands of thieves etc. I must mention that hadiths also contain many beautiful teachings too. As I said, its a hodge-podge collection ridden with internal contradictions.

Criticism of these fanciful stories in hadiths has always existed right from the beginning but very few muslims care to question its authenticity. They believe that anyone who rejects hadiths and accepts ONLY the Koran is an infidel! You must also realise that most translations of the Koran are also done in the light of these hadiths and in some cases the original meaning of the Koran is twisted to bring it in accord with hadith teachings!

The historical basis of the Hadith is at best tenuous. Some of the historical points such as (1) the prohibition of the Prophet himself on hadith writing, and honoring of the same position by his immediate followers, (2) the long time gap between the Quran and the Hadith, and the accompanying lack of proper records of the deeds and sayings of the Prophet, and (3) flawed oral transmission due to weakness of the human sources, including their imperfect memories add well to effectively dismiss the Hadith altogether. To this list one may add (4) the influence of the ruling regimes, of people with wealth and power of the time, and of the disputing theologians on hadith collection, recording, selection and compilation, and finally (5) the weakness of the criteria used to judge authenticity of individual hadith texts.

Great website: http://free-minds.org/articles/hadith/hadithhistory.htm
Tons of information on this website.

In conclusion, hadiths are usually unreliable and SHOULD NOT BE used as a judgement for such important legal affairs.

Buffalo Roam, please accept my challenge. Quote the Qur'an for saying apostates should be killed.

[Buffalo Roam]

Buffalo Roam:

Buffalo Roam, please accept my challenge. Quote the Qur'an for saying apostates should be killed.

These are the interpretation of the Quran as interpreted by your own religious legal scholars, why should I argue with there learned opinion, and as it seems most of Islam regards their word as proper and correct as to the meaning of the way of the Prophet, and the meaning of the Quran, it is your own holy scholars who have made this interpretation, so why tell me that I am wrong I only quote your own Holy Men, tell them. And then I would be careful were I laid my Head.

[Kadark]

These are the interpretation of the Quran as interpreted by your own religious legal scholars, why should I argue with there learned opinion, and as it seems most of Islam regards their word as proper and correct as to the meaning of the way of the Prophet, and the meaning of the Quran, it is your own holy scholars who have made this interpretation, so why tell me that I am wrong I only quote your own Holy Men, tell them. And then I would be careful were I laid my Head.

Completely wrong. Your lack of knowledge on Islam sticks out like a sore thumb. These understandings and laws of apostates originates ONLY from hadiths, NOT from interpretations they make from the Qur'an.

It is a miracle of the Quran that God Almighty used the word "Hadith" in the Quran before any of Muhammad's talks were ever referred to as Hadith. God knew that some Muslims after Muhammad will corrupt this great religion and claim whatever Muhammad said as part of this religion, when God is teaching us throughout the Quran NOT to accept any law or religious rules from outside the Quran.

This miracle becomes clear when we realize that these corruptors of Islam chose the word "Hadith" when they could have chosen tens of other Arabic words that convey the same meaning, but as we usually say they shot themselves in the foot and exposed their ignorance with the Quran and publicly humiliated all the fools who would follow any other Hadith but the BEST HADITH (QURAN).

They chose the word "Hadith" (Hadeeth) to describe Muhammad's alleged sayings or narrations. It is true ,the word Hadith has many meanings, for example, narrations, sayings, words, speech, storry, opinion, statement, utterance, incidence, discourse, account , tale...etc. BUT the corruptors of Islam chose the ONLY word that God used , to make it stamped on their face the day they meet HIM, a strong proof agaist them and to show how they disobeyed God when the ORDER is clear not to accept any other Hadith for this great religion but the Quran.


Many times, Muhammedans get upset that the English Translation of the Quran by Dr. Khalifa left the word Hadith un-translated. Their upset stems from the fact that leaving the word in its Arabic form exposes their corruption and the abuse of the word "Hadith". He did that for the significance of that word that God put in the Quran deliberately and after 1400 years of corruption of Islam by the alleged Hadith of Muhammad. Dr. Khalifa left it deliberately to emphasize the significance of the word that now became a household word that needs no trnalsation in most of the cses. These Muhammedans think if the word Hadith is translated into English, it will cover up their corruption in refusing to uphold the Quran alone as God ordered in the Quran. As we will see, this would not work and the message coming out of the Quran is still very strong and very clear, DO NOT UPHOLD any OTHER HADITH but the QURAN for this religion.

Let us now for the sake of the truth, play their game and produce the verses that has the word "HADITH" in it but with the English translation of the word "Hadith" in all its posible meanings, placed between (...), and see how these verse look like and whether the message coming out of these verses are any different. Any intelligent person will see immediately that the message of the verses does not change and we are not to accept any HADITH (narrations, sayings, words, speech, opinions, statement, utterance, discourse, account or tale), besides this (Quran).

Let us do it and reflect on every verse;


THE WORD HADITH IN QURAN


A review of the use of the word Hadith in the Quran can show any sincere believer that God wants us to follow no other Hadith (narrations, sayings, words, speech, opinions, statement, utterance, discourse, account , tale....), but His Hadith, the QURAN.

Here is some of what the Quran says about Hadiths. The words are clear but those who insist on defying God cannot see it or feel it.

"Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things God has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which HADITH (narrations, sayings, words, speech, opinions, statement, utterance, discourse, account, tale.......), besides this (Quran) do they believe in?" 7:185


"God has revealed herein the BEST HADITH (narrations, sayings, words, speech, opinions, statement, utterance, discourse, account, tale.....); a book that is consistent and points out both ways (to heaven and hell). The skins of those who reverence their Lord cringe therefrom, then their skins and their hearts soften up for God's message. Such is God's guidance; he bestows it upon whomever He wills. As for those sent astray by God, nothing can guide them." 39:23


"These are God's revelations (Quran) that we recite to you truthfully. In which HADITH (narrations, sayings, words, speech, opinions, statement, utterance, discourse, account, tale...... ) other than God and His revelations do they believe?" 45:6


"Let them produce a HADITH (narrations, sayings, words, speech, opinions, statement, utterance, discourse, account , tale......) like this (Quran) if they are truthful." 52:34


"Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this HADITH (narrations, sayings, words, speech, opinions, statement, utterance, discourse, account, tale......)(Quran); we will lead them on whence they never perceive." 68:44


"Which HADITH (narrations, sayings, words, speech, opinions, statement, utterance, discourse, account, tale......) other than this do they uphold?" 77:50


Why did God permit these so called HADITH (narrations, sayings, words, speech, opinions, statement, utterance, discourse, account , tales........)? The answer is in next verse.


"We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - human and jinn devils - to inspire in each other FANCY WORDS, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it? You shall disregard them and their FABRICATIONS. This is to let the minds of those who do not believe in the Hereafter listen to such FABRICATIONS, and accept them, and thus expose their real convictions. [6:112-113]


Should we believe these words of God about Hadith?!!

If you do not want to, my be you should listen to these two verse;

"Who is more evil than one who is reminded of these revelations of his Lord (QURAN), then insists upon disregarding them? We will certainly punish the guilty." 32:22

"And when our revelations (Quran) are recited to the one of them, he turns away in arrogance as if he never heard them, as if his ears are deaf. Promise him a painful retribution." 31:7

http://www.submission.org/hadith/Arabic-Hadith2.html

---

"Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless HADITH (narrations, sayings, words, speech, opinions, statement, utterance, discourse, account, tale........), and thus divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution." 31:6

From the Qur'an. Allah says in his holy book that people will uphold baseless hadith and divert others from the true path (Qur'an). This is why killing apostates is allowed in hadiths, but NOT in the Qur'an. I'm not trying to come across as rude, Buffalo, and sorry if I have. But killing apostates in not allowed in the Qur'an, which is Islam's primary source.

[Buffalo Roam]

Qa`Dark

Completely wrong. Your lack of knowledge on Islam sticks out like a sore thumb. These understandings and laws of apostates originates ONLY from hadiths, NOT from interpretations they make from the Qur'an.

I just use the information as provided by your own Islamic scholars?

The Hadith (the body of quotes attributed to Muhammad and claimed eyewitnesses' accounts of Muhammad's life and deeds) includes statements that Muslim scholars such as Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid see as supporting the death penalty for apostasy. [4] Only those from Sahih Bukhari, which are considered reliable by most Muslims generally are given below:

And according to them it is perfectly OK to kill Moslems for falling into Apostasy and changing their religious belief.

[sandy]

Hey Qa 'Dark:

Then explain this to us:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...2-apostasy.htm

Thank you.

Oh, and "Keith Ellison" hid his Muslim name too. He fooled the people of MN, got elected to Congress, demanded to be sworn in on a Koran, has meetings with CAIR, and is proving to be exactly what I said he would before he was elected.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/016957.php

[iceaura]

It's part of who he is. I don't think we've had a candidate with a parent of color before.

Shirley Chisholm.

I can't believe we're still paying attention to anyone from the Swift Boat crowd.

Is that Pitkin the same guy who went on TV with Kerry and admitted to seeing and committing war crimes while denying he had seen or committed war crimes - because he didn't know that what he'd done was not permitted to a US soldier? Or was he one of the dozens of Swift Boaters who never actually served much, or any, with Kerry? Or was he one of the Winter Soldier bunch who turned out to be an FBI informant and government plant ( a lot of that, at the time) ?

And they say Iraq is not Viet Nam redux - give it time.

I just use the information as provided by your own Islamic scholars?

You can find a cleric in any Abrahamic religion who will say almost anything. There are people in the US who believe - and would act, given the opportunity - on the Biblical stricture "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live".

[Kadark]

Hey Qa 'Dark:

Then explain this to us:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...2-apostasy.htm

Thank you.

Oh, and "Keith Ellison" hid his Muslim name too. He fooled the people of MN, got elected to Congress, demanded to be sworn in on a Koran, has meetings with CAIR, and is proving to be exactly what I said he would before he was elected.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/016957.php

I will explain that link to you. Quite simply, the link is based on hadith, which shouldn't be done. hadiths are very often unreliable, and my two behemoth posts will explain why.

sandy, please explain these quotes from the Qur'an for me, please.

Qur'an on hadiths:

"Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless HADITH (narrations, sayings, words, speech, opinions, statement, utterance, discourse, account, tale........), and thus divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution." 31:6

Qur'an on religions:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion."

sandy, could you please explain these quotes from the Bible for me?
http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm
You are Christian, aren't you?

[Ganymede]

Zionism is irrelevent. Israel is already a soveriegn nation. That's like saying, "I love the blacks, but there won't be peace in the US until they go back to Africa.".

That's irrelevant. Because Blacks didn't come and take over America. The Zionists came and took over Palestine.