Obama has permenantly won me over with this comment!

**~~sandy~~** · 06-26-07, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Orleander

Why do you type it like that? Is he related to Saddam Hussein?
And I don't think he'd make a good president right now either. I'd like to see him run again in about 8 yrs though.

So people know who he really is. His father was a black Muslim. Family history should neither be a qualification nor disqualification from becoming president, but Americans want to know everything about leading candidates. If Obama got the nomination, I think the Muslim thing could hurt him. Americans are still tender and wounded from 911.

Romney's Mormonism is hurting him. Christians may not vote for a Mormon just like they may not vote for a Muslim (or son of one.)

**Buffalo Roam** · 06-26-07, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Nickelodeon

If was amazing that a man who served in a war is portrayed as a coward, yet another man who obviously dodged the draft (or at least got himself into a position where he wouldnt ever come accross any enemies in texas) is a true patriot.

Kerry went to Vietnam with the purpose of making a good resume, the best reflection of what he actually did as far as combat is from the majority of his fellow Officers, they were there with him and saw him in action, and he was judged and found wanting, in leadership and veracity, there is also the little item of his not releasing his final discharge DD-214, ( He promised to do so ) which would show weather he was ever brought up on charges, for his actions after he returned from Vietnam, if he wasn't given a less than Honorable discharge as referenced by some the simplest way of showing this would be release the DD-214, but he treats his discharge DD-214 with more security than a National Secret. There are certain protocols that should appear in his records of discharge, and they are not there, his discharge for 1975 should have been signed by President Gerald R. Ford, or if he was discharged in 1972, it should have been signed by President Richard Nixon, his terminal date of reserve obligation was 02/17/72, that is when his obligation of enlistment was over.

This is from the DD-214 that was issued at the time of his separation from active service, and it shows his date of termination of obligation, and the President at that time was Richard M. Nixon, not Jimmy Carter.

http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw....erry/dd214.pdf

**spidergoat** · 06-26-07, 11:40 AM

So you guys only provisionally support the troops. If they are proud of serving and use this fact against chickenhawk warmongers who never served, then it's all fair game.

**Orleander** · 06-26-07, 11:46 AM

Barak Obama is a Christian, same as you Sandy. I just don't understand why you keep stressing his middle name.

**spidergoat** · 06-26-07, 11:51 AM

But, but, 911 means we hate Muslims now, right?

**Christenstein** · 06-26-07, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by spidergoat

But, but, 911 means we hate Muslims now, right?

There goes the old saying, "Time heals all wounds," but there hasn't been enough time since 911. Obama's father's religion would be like looking at the wound again. For most people, it would be painful.

**superstring01** · 06-26-07, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by sandy

So people know who he really is. His father was a black Muslim. Family history should neither be a qualification nor disqualification from becoming president, but Americans want to know everything about leading candidates. If Obama got the nomination, I think the Muslim thing could hurt him. Americans are still tender and wounded from 911.

Romney's Mormonism is hurting him. Christians may not vote for a Mormon just like they may not vote for a Muslim (or son of one.)

Originally Posted by Orleander

Barak Obama is a Christian, same as you Sandy. I just don't understand why you keep stressing his middle name.

Indeed, Sandy, Obama is a member of the United Church of Christ. If he WERE a Muslim it would be as great a sin in the eyes of his God to pretent otherwise as it would be for you.

Though I'd never vote for the guy, let's give his not-so-important middle name / religion issue a rest.

~String

**spidergoat** · 06-26-07, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Christenstein

There goes the old saying, "Time heals all wounds," but there hasn't been enough time since 911. Obama's father's religion would be like looking at the wound again. For most people, it would be painful.

Nonsense:

Keith Ellison, a Democrat, has become the first Muslim to be elected to the US Congress by winning a Minnesota seat in the House of Representatives.

**Buffalo Roam** · 06-26-07, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by spidergoat

So you guys only provisionally support the troops. If they are proud of serving and use this fact against chickenhawk warmongers who never served, then it's all fair game.

Pure Bullshit, Kerry only became proud of his service when it was politically expedient to do so, I still have to go with the majority of the Officers and People who served with him in country, and their judgment is that he was a political opportunist, lacking in Truthfulness, and Leadership, and Judgment.

Does this sound like a man proud of his service?

[QUOTE]Modern History Sourcebook:
Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement, 1971

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement by John Kerry, 1971 to the Senate Committee of Foreign Relations April 23, 1971

I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit - the emotions in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the Winter Soldier Investigation. The term Winter Soldier is a play on words of Thomas Paine's in 1776 when he spoke of the Sunshine Patriots and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.

And this statement was made about a situation that was a fraud.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1114125/posts

April 22, 1971 -- John Kerry testifies on behalf of the VVAW before the Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs. He claims that American soldiers had "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan..." and that these acts were "not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command." Kerry also accuses the U.S. military of "rampant" racism and of being "more guilty than any other body" of violating the Geneva Conventions, supports "Madame Binh's points" when asked to recommend a peace proposal, and states that any reprisals against the South Vietnamese after an American withdrawal would be "far, far less than the 200,000 a year who are murdered by the United States of America."

November 12-15, 1971 -- the VVAW leadership meets in Kansas City. Fearing surveillance by authorities, the group relocates the meeting to another building. They debate, then vote down a plan to assassinate several pro-war U.S. Senators. Several witnesses, meeting minutes and FBI records eventually place John Kerry at this meeting.

1978 -- Former VVAW leader Robert Muller founds the Vietnam Veterans of America (VVA). The VVA also describes John Kerry as a "co-founder" of the organization. In the late 1980s, Mueller and the Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation (VVAF) will split from the VVA.

**spidergoat** · 06-26-07, 12:53 PM

Yes, it does sound like someone proud of his service and ashamed of the war itself.

John Prados: The Winter Soldier Investigation Was Never Discredited

**mabufo** · 06-26-07, 01:03 PM

If you're a democrat, that doesn't mean you can't vote for Ron Paul.

**Buffalo Roam** · 06-26-07, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by spidergoat

Yes, it does sound like someone proud of his service and ashamed of the war itself.

John Prados: The Winter Soldier Investigation Was Never Discredited

My Quiet Life » Winter Soldiers
Let’s take it sentence by sentence: 1) The Winter Soldier testimony was not ... had never served in Vietnam or had not done so in the capacity they claimed. ...
http://chris.quietlife.net/?p=258

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=40333

Pitkin's renunciation of his participation in the Detroit event was reported by Scott Swett, the primary author of WinterSoldier.com, which documents Kerry's role in VVAW. Swett also is the webmaster for the website of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, the group of 254 veterans who contend their fomer colleague, Kerry, is unfit to be commander in chief.

In his affidavit, he insists he never saw American soldiers commit war crimes.

Pitkin now states: "Everything I said about atrocities and racism was a lie. My unit never went out with the intention of doing anything but its job. And I never saw black soldiers treated differently, get picked out for the worst or most dangerous jobs, or anything like that. There were some guys, shirkers, who would intentionally injure themselves to get sent home, so I talked about that for a while. But the fact is I lied my ass off, and I'm not proud of it. I didn't think it would ever amount to anything."

He claims he overheard remarks that the VVAW had cleaned out the local Army-Navy stores the day before.

"Disgusted," writes Swett, Pitkin "grabbed a handful of ribbons and threw them, not at the Capitol, but at the throng of reporters crowding close to the microphone, and stalked away."

After that event, Pitkin said he no longer was invited to VVAW meetings or events, which was fine with him, and he soon returned to the military, joining the Maryland National Guard in 1974 and graduating from paratrooper "jump school" with honors in 1976. He joined the Coast Guard in 1978 and served there until his retirement in May 1997.

Pitkin says he wants to apologize to Vietnam veterans for his actions and statements at the Winter Soldier Investigation.

"The VVAW found me during a difficult time in my life, and I let them use me to advance their political agenda," he said. "They pressured me to tell their lies, but that's no excuse for what I did. I just want people to know the truth and to make amends as best I can. I'd hate to see the troops serving today have to go through what Vietnam veterans did."

**spidergoat** · 06-26-07, 02:03 PM

How does any of that mean that Kerry wasn't proud of his service? And even if hypothetically, Kerry wasn't proud of his service, why does that mean we shouldn't be? He put himself in harm's way by signing up, which is more than Cheney or Bush did. Bush got himself a cush job in the National Guard, and couldn't even keep it up by getting a physical.

**Buffalo Roam** · 06-26-07, 02:28 PM

I'm not the only one who has a question of when Kerry became proud of his service, and the fact that his discharge statue is intresting to say the least.

Honorable Discharge Nuances

Thomas Lipscomb reports on the latest mystery involving
the Vietnam service of John Kerry:

"An official Navy document on Senator Kerry's campaign Web site listed as Mr.
Kerry's "Honorable Discharge from the Reserves" opens a door on a well-kept
secret about his military service.

The document is a form cover letter in the name of the Carter administration's
secretary of the Navy, W. Graham Claytor. It describes Mr. Kerry's discharge as
being subsequent to the review of "a board of officers." This in itself is
unusual. There is nothing about an ordinary honorable discharge action in the
Navy that requires a review by a board of officers.

According to the secretary of the Navy's document, the "authority of reference"
this board was using in considering Mr. Kerry's record was "Title 10, U.S. Code
Section 1162 and 1163." This section refers to the grounds for involuntary
separation from the service. What was being reviewed, then, was Mr. Kerry's
involuntary separation from the service. And it couldn't have been an honorable
discharge, or there would have been no point in any review at all. The review
was likely held to improve Mr. Kerry's status of discharge from a less than
honorable discharge to an honorable discharge.

A Kerry campaign spokesman, David Wade, was asked whether Mr. Kerry had ever
been a victim of an attempt to deny him an honorable discharge. There has been
no response to that inquiry."

In the absence of an explanation from the Kerry camp, Lipscomb offers some
speculation:

"There are a number of categories of discharges besides honorable. There are
general discharges, medical discharges, bad conduct discharges, as well as other
than honorable and dishonorable discharges. There is one odd coincidence that
gives some weight to the possibility that Mr. Kerry was dishonorably discharged.
Mr. Kerry has claimed that he lost his medal certificates and that is why he
asked that they be reissued. But when a dishonorable discharge is issued, all
pay benefits, and allowances, and all medals and honors are revoked as well. And
five months after Mr. Kerry joined the U.S. Senate in 1985, on one single day,
June 4, all of Mr. Kerry's medals were reissued."

And as reported in the

http://www.nysun.com/article/3107

The "board of officers" review reported in the Claytor document is even more extraordinary because it came about "by direction of the President." No normal honorable discharge requires the direction of the president. The president at that time was James Carter. This adds another twist to the story of Mr. Kerry's hidden military records.

Mr. Carter's first act as president was a general amnesty for draft dodgers and other war protesters. Less than an hour after his inauguration on January 21, 1977, while still in the Capitol building, Mr. Carter signed Executive Order 4483 empowering it. By the time it became a directive from the Defense Department in March 1977 it had been expanded to include other offenders who may have had general, bad conduct, dishonorable discharges, and any other discharge or sentence with negative effect on military records. In those cases the directive outlined a procedure for appeal on a case by case basis before a board of officers. A satisfactory appeal would result in an improvement of discharge status or an honorable discharge.

Mr. Kerry has repeatedly refused to sign Standard Form 180, which would allow the release of all his military records. And some of his various spokesmen have claimed that all his records are already posted on his Web site. But the Washington Post already noted that the Naval Personnel Office admitted that they were still withholding about 100 pages of files.

**~~Nickelodeon~~** · 06-26-07, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by sandy

His father was a black Muslim.

You have a problem with him being black? What a surprise.

**pjdude1219** · 06-26-07, 02:58 PM

isn't a little outlandish that you complain that kerry did not release his discharge papers and you support a man who no one can find evidence to prove he served.

**spidergoat** · 06-26-07, 04:22 PM

Fine, I'm only going to support the troops after I scrutinize the private records of each one after they come home. Until then, they can be considered only to be padding their resumes for future public office.