Suspicious history in the NT

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M*W: The trial of Jesus is highly suspicious. First, we need to determine if Pontius Pilate was an historical figure or an allegorical one. The story of freeing one criminal at Passover is a lie. The Jews never had such a custom at anytime or for any reason. As the story goes, Pilate gave the crowd of Jews the choice of who they wanted released. The Jews chose Jesus Barabbas. His name in itself reeks of suspicion. 'Jesus bar Abbas' means "Jesus, son of god." Interpreted correctly, this would actually mean that Jesus, son of god, was the one released.

Now, I'm definitely not trying to say that this Jesus actually existed, but that's just how the story goes. With that thought in mind, it portrays the Romans to be more sympathetic to the Jews than they really were, and it also indicates that whomever wrote the NT, they were highly anti-semitic (i.e. was it the Romans, maybe?).

Biblical scholars today conclude that the NT was written by anti-semites and not the Jews as we've been led to believe.

"The narrative gospels can no longer be viewed as the trustworthy accounts of unique and stupendous historical events at the foundation of the Christian faith. The gospels must now be seen as the result of early Christian mythmaking."

Mack, Burton: The Lost Gospel of Q: The Book of Christian Origins, Harper, 1993, p.10.

 

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Do you have any sources for this? I would love to go read some more about that. Very controversial.

 

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M*W: Here's a limited bibliography:

Acharya S.: The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999.

Atwill, Joseph: Caesar's Messiah: The Roman COnspiracy to Invent Jesus, Ulysses Press, 2005.

Carotta, Francesco: Jesus Christus, Caesar Incognito, Berlin, 1991.

Carotta, Francesco: Was Jesus Caesar? Munich, 1999.

Carotta, Francesco: Was Jezus Caesar?, Soesterberg, 2002.

Carotta, Francesco: On the Julian Origin of Christianity: An Investigative Report, ASPEKT, 2005.

Courtney, G.: Et tu, Judas? Then fall Jesus!, Lane Cove, 1992.

Efroymson, David P.: The Patristic Connection. In Antisemitism and the Foundations of Christianity, edited by Alan T. Davies, Paulist Press, 1979.

Friedman, Richard: Who Wrote the Bible?, Simon & Schuster, 1989.

Higgins, Godfrey, Esp., Anacalypsis, A&B Books, 1992.

Mack, Burton: The Lost Gospel of Q: The Book of Christian Origins, Harper, 1993.

Mack, Burton: Who Wrote the New Testament: The Making of the Christian Myth, Harper, 1995.

Stauffer, E. Christ and the Caesars. Historical Sketches, SCM Press, 1955.

Waite, Charles: History of the Christian Religion to the Year Two Hundred, Carroll Bierbower, 1992.

Wheless, Joseph: Forgery in Christianity, Health Research, 1990.

Okay, this should get your started. I look forward to many discussions with you in this regard.

 

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M*W: The dictionary says the word 'fascination' means to have an intense interest in something. Having said that, I do have an intense interest in searching for the truth. The reason I am fascinated with searching for the truth about christianity is because it is the embodiment of myths and lies.

 

Couldn't the same be said about you and your beliefs? If you have any VALID evidence that what you believe is any truer than what we believe, we're all ears.

Christians claim to know the truth.
Muslims claim to know the truth.
Jews claim to know the truth.
Buddhists claim to know the truth.
Hinduists claim to know the truth.
Even scientologists claim to know the truth.

I could go on...

 

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M*W: Why do you think I will never find the truth? You can't get into my mind!

The search for truth begins with an inkling or idea. It can begin with confusion and doubt. Then again, it can begin with an assumption or even a blatant, drop kick into reality. For me, it was a sensation that something wasn't quite right, and my search began.

I have no doubt that I have found some truth and a lot of confirmation. I don't doubt that I will ever know 100% of anything, so my search will continue.

Keeping the truth to myself? Hardly. My whole purpose and mission at this point in my life is to bring these truths as I know them to others, and sciforums is a great vehicle to be able to do just that.

With more than 5,600 posts to my credit, I am definitely not keeping the truth to myself.

 

It seems that some Jews had both first and last names?

The Roman word Jesus was unknown to the holy land. The Hebrew name Yeshua (Jesus) was very common as was Miriam (Mary).

Yeshua Bar Abbas - The second word means 'son' and the last word means 'father'...not neccessarily referring to Yahweh.

So, did Jesus (Christ) have a last name also???

 

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M*W: That is your wishful thinking.

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M*W: I have always said I was wrong about christianity WHILE I WAS A CHRISTIAN. Don't try to twist my words. I believed, but I was wrong because christianity was wrong.

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M*W: Maybe I misunderstood your beliefs, but reading your earlier posts, they were rather apologetic of christianity. So, I may have been mistaken about your specific beliefs, but you still continue to be (or to sound) apologetic. However, it doesn't matter to me what your affiliation may be, it's not going to change what I have to say. I don't make a habit of writing so as to please the reader. I say what I have to say, like it or not.

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M*W: What they do is not my responsibility. They do what they do because they want to. Obviously, they're not going to take what I have to say seriously, just like you, so what they choose to do or to not do is totally up to them. If what I have to say pushes them further into their religious addiction, that would happen anyway. If it weren't me, it would be somebody else. It's an easy excuse to refuse to learn. After all, I'm not the only atheist and anti-christian in the world. Maybe I'm just one of the louder ones. They don't listen to me anyway, so I fail to see how anything I do or say would affect them.

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M*W: I've repeated this so many times, I don't see the purpose of doing it again. Let me give you a hint: sun worship myths.

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M*W: You can think what I say is comical if you want to. That is your right. I put a lot of reading and research into the topics I write about. I always provide back-up documentation, references, citations, bibliographies and such. When you say that my beliefs are comical, I can assure you there are many respected scholars whom I have studied that must be comical, too.

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M*W: No bashing intended. If you take it that way, that is your problem. Yet, you claim not to be a christian.

The truth of what I believe (and what many scholars have published) is that christianity (and all religions) are mythological, as in created by men probably for the purpose of entertainment. There have been many dying demigod saviors who were born, lived, died, and were resurrected, all with the same theme as Jesus. He wasn't the first, by the way. There were some 24 saviors prior to the Jesus myth evolving, but all of them were based on sun worship and were mythological. I'm not discriminating against Jesus or christianity, none of them are real.

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M*W: Can you or can you not read? The only reason I come to this forum is to speak the truth as I see it. I did not create this out of my wild imagination. I read, research, question, confirm, publish and present what I believe. If you've somehow missed it, I can't help you. I'm not quite sure what you're looking for from me. Maybe you should go back and re-read the posts and threads that I've created or replied to. Somehow, I just think you are ignoring me (on purpose) and what I've got to say.

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M*W: The truth is what I give you. You just don't recognize it yet.

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M*W: Now, you're getting nit picky and trying to twist my words. Think about what I said. The desire to seek the truth starts with a thought or idea. It may come as confusion or doubt. It can slap you in the face, but sometimes you can't see the truth until is runs over you like a train! What inspires one's quest for the truth is going to be different for each of us. I said what inspired me to search for the truth was an uneasy 'sensation.' I don't mean like ESP or telepathy or clairvoyance. I mean like sitting in church or a prayer meeting when questions would arise in my head. I did not always rear those questions unless it was to a priest or someone with more advanced knowledge who could answer my question intellectually. I found all too often that if I had a question about Jesus or the bible or god, if I tried to discuss it with my ex-husband, he would just ridicule me for having doubt and, of course, that was a sin. It was like a viscious circle. I couldn't move forward in my search for the truth, because I always seemed to be directed right back to the place where I shouldn't even be asking! I knew I wasn't going to get any answers unless I found the truth for myself. It was a very lonely pursuit, but it was well-worth the journey.

I'm not here to convert anyone to atheism. That's not something that someone else can do to you. Atheism is something that is revealed to you when the time is right for you. That time comes after you do the reading and research. It could take years. It could take a lifetime. It's not an overnight 'sensation.' That 'sensation' is like a light bulb going on in your head. Everything becomes clear. That's what I meant when I said I had a 'sensation.' Maybe I should have just said that I had the desire to learn more about christianity while I was a christian. My pursuit wasn't toward pursuing atheism, it was really toward a deeper understanding of christianity.

I hope this isn't too comical for you.

 

for the one that asked lost gospel of Q is on line here:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/q.html

boring read, but then again if one is infatuated (not me) lol.. there it is, there's plenty more on that site too.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

 

oh my god it is frrrreeezing in my house tonight. it's as though someoner or something...never mind.

M*W, what ere you talking about? nah. My post is gonna somecontain errors, but mu letter get mixed up sometimes and it is worse at times than others. so i fix them buot left them in here for demonstratoin purposes. Becuause sometimes i forgetr and dont wan to give the wrong impresoin. Whjen i was in scool...um enough about me LOL. I read much bettre but when my words get mixed up i have to go back and look at them close to reaarrange the letters.

M*W, this is highly suspicious. If any trial (especially that of Christ) were to take place why would ROMANS, specifically the Roman prefect of Judea, Pontius Pilate be sympathetic to Passover?

I (since you got me interested in this stuff) found this from a mainstream source (unbiased), i would cite biblical passages but i still have not gotten a bible:

"Jesus probably came to Jerusalem about a week before the Passover, most likely for the purpose of carrying his message of the imminent coming of the Kingdom of God into the heart of Israel--though possibly, like so many thousands of other Jews, simply to celebrate the highest of religious days."

It states he came a few days before passover. Would the Romans literally capture this trouble maker\rabble rouser who did have a growing group of ------- (what's a good word?) and give him a quick informal trial with the intent of

"Seven decades after Rome assumed control of Palestine, in 6 C.E., growing Jewish opposition to Roman laws relating to the census, taxation, and heathen traditions boiled over. Especially despised was the Roman imposition of a census of property for tax purposes. Ancestral land held an exalted position in Jewish ideology and many Jews feared that the new laws would lead to its appropriation by Rome. Jewish uprisings in protest of the laws led to the crucifixion of over 2,000 Jewish insurgents and the selling into slavery of perhaps 20,000 more."

And this seems to refute the notion of any sympathy further:

"the trial in which the Roman prefect for Judea, Pontius Pilate, played the key role."

The Roman's were very crafty in their techniquss of governance and the psychological ramification's this would impose would serve some purpose. Afterall the Roman's would not be expected to honor a Jewish holiday...or did i allready mention that?

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M*W, my post's are not intoended to bring you strife. I am cynical of profiteering, especially when get the slightest impression of posessing the superior intellect- nah just kidding, i (not meaning you M*W, as are my feeling towareds everyoner here contain no mailicious intent), ah i cannot get things right tonight...si i gotta go.

M*W,

I am afraid i dont follow you here, sun worshipping seems to be a simplistic interpretation unlessr you mean you worship the sun. So just go over that part once more.

Godless, i clicked on you link but closed it when i saw the "buy CD NOW" maybe i will read it some time soon.

 

Thanks for the info mw... I have noticed christianity is a perfect example of natural selection of religions. Its nice to try get through their layers of lies to find the truth to the myth.

 

So what do you think of the assreations put forth in my post? i guess you didnt read it.

 

I actually had a look, but I couldnt find sources for your quotes so I found your response to be ... limited. If you could be more clear on your sources so I can go investigate them I would be happy to look at your opinion in more detail.

 

The sources are word for word accounts from the bible...or the easy paraphesed version..not sure which. I would not lie, so just read the and they are standard. Readily googled.

 

So you use the bible to confirm the bible? I know you may think you may not lie.. but I know christians too well... what you think and what you do are two different things

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No Wizard, these are the accounts that the original post (specifically what M*W cliiped the passage from a book) her own post is using biblical accounts as a base...is it not?

If i lie i lie on my own (i dont), do you think i need helkp? <jk>

 

I honestly dont think you know or believe you lie. Its your reality, it makes sense to you, and you have been able to reconcile your findings with yourself. And if we continue this line of debate we would just get into a philosophical debate on the metaphysics of personal reality.

In South Africa we have a group of Christians called 7th day Adventists. There pretty militant and ignorant and their Calvinism scares the hell outta me. For some reason christianity (while shrinking in the developed world) its expanding rapidly here...

 

No we would not Wizarerd. If somoene posts and another member post's a counter to it do you automattically assume that it is becuase they are personally involved?

I like M*W, so do you. All i am doing is asking questioins.

Not onlyu that but if anyone here post's somehting that is proven to be wrong is it a lie?

This is a discussion forum, dont be so paranoid. And i never knew anything about a triakl of christ so dont keep implying that i am a Christian.

 

Without a doubt. Even if they believe its the truth but it gets proven to be incorrect.. its a lie. A half truth is a whole lie.

Your assumption on my cognitive state is misplaced.

 

you are taking this stuff too seriously, being wrong is not a lie. We are all wrong at times are we not?