Prius worse than Hummer for the environment?

Discussion in 'Earth Science' started by swivel, Mar 23, 2007.

  1. swivel Sci-Fi Author Valued Senior Member

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    http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/print_item.asp?NewsID=188

    I think the smart environmentalists will understand this, and come to their senses. Recently, they have realized that the "travel costs" of organic foods is worse than the benefits, and have made a move to go "local". You can also look at the recent trend to embrace nuclear power by environmentalists. Such is the way with this group, which reacts with their hearts, and 15 years later their heads catch up with them. But at least most of them finally come around, and they mean well.
     
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  3. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    God, what a ridiculous pile of BS.

    1. The nickel in the batteries is 100% recyclable. That's why Toyota will buy back dead Prius batteries for $200.
    2. The part about NASA using the area around the Sudbury plant as a “dead zone” to test moon rovers is an urban myth. The author is either deliberately lying or didn’t make even the most basic efforts to check his facts.
    3. To make this even more of a non-issue, the Prius is switching to Li-ion batteries in 2008 anyway.

    Again, this is complete BS. They assume that the Hummer will have a lifetime of 300,000 miles, while assuming that the Prius will only last 100,000. Which is strange, because the Prius comes with a standard 150,000 mile warranty, while the standard warranty on the Hummer is only 50,000 miles! They assume that the Prius will last 50,000 miles less than the warranty covers, and that the Hummer will last 250,000 miles more than the warranty covers. Does that seem at all reasonable to you?

    But even ignoring all that, just use your critical thinking skills for a minute here. This study claims that the Prius will cost an average of $3.25/mile over a lifetime of 100,000 miles. Ok…the MSRP for a Prius $23,000. We know that it actually costs less than that to make, since the company is selling it for a profit at that price, but let’s go with it. If it gets 45 mpg, as the article claims, then it will need 2,222 gallons of gas. If the gas is $4/gallon, that will cost $8888. So where does the other $293,112 come from? Surely you have some familiarity with the costs involved in owning a car. Does it seem even close to reasonable to you that a person might have to spend $30,000/year to operate a car that they have already purchased?
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2007
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  5. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    1. Cost per mile isn't a measure of environmental friendliness.
    2. Nickel need not be mined in an environmentally damaging way.
    3. An electric motor is not properly called an engine.
    4. 45 mpg is still excellent.
    5. Part of the high cost of manufacturing a Prius is due to it's new technology and comparative rarity in the market, while a hummer is just a truck.
    6. Gasoline prices are going to rise, perhaps dramatically, in the future, why doesn't Hummer make a diesel like the military version?

    Besides, few people can afford to drive their Hummer 300K miles, which would cost $45,520 (source). A Prius driven 300K miles would cost $14,080 in fuel.
     
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  7. BenTheMan Dr. of Physics, Prof. of Love Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not sure what 100% recylable means. There is always some polution as a result of the recycling process.

    But does the Prius come in four wheel drive?
     
  8. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    It means that the nickel can be recovered and reused, so you don’t need to smelt new nickel ore every time you make a battery.
    No...for that you would probably want the Toyota Highlander.
     
  9. Facial Valued Senior Member

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    The energy payback of a Prius far outdoes anything in its relative manufacture energy deficit (if that were even true, lol).

    A load of BS.
     
  10. BenTheMan Dr. of Physics, Prof. of Love Valued Senior Member

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    Well, perhaps I should clarify. Does "100% recyclable" mean that there are no hazardous byproducts of the recyling process?

    Bah. I want a Chevy dammit.

    Except for the high levels of smug that it produces...
     
  11. Nickelodeon Banned Banned

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    Hummers for everyone. And throw in a canister of gas in the boot, I want to spray it on my lawn and set fire to it. After all, its not like theres more where that came from.
     
  12. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    I simply meant that all of the nickel could be recovered. I wasn't trying to imply that it was magic.
     
  13. BenTheMan Dr. of Physics, Prof. of Love Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah---the point is, such recycling processes generally store polution in other places. I just wanted to clarify that there are some hazardous waste products from the recycling process, and wanted to see if you knew anything about the tradeoff. Recovering the nickle is one thing, but recovering the nickle by creating toxic waste is another.
     
  14. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    It is a good point that higher mpg conventional vehicles might be just as good if not better for the environment than a Prius. Ford now makes a focus that qualifies as a Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle.

    If we could only capture all the exhaust gasses, a conventional gas engine wouldn't be that bad for the environment (except for the fact that oil is running out).
     
  15. BenTheMan Dr. of Physics, Prof. of Love Valued Senior Member

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    This is the point that I have made to many a smug Prius owner, only to be scoffed at as if I were refuting their theory of relativity

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    Something like a Honda Echo or Ford Focus will get similar gas mileage, costs less money, and will consume less resources overall than the Prius.

    Of course, if everybody bought Focuses (Foci?) then they couldn't get together and talk about how they're crusaders for the environment. Some consider an Escalade a status symbol, and I'm convinced that a Prius is the same in some circles.
     
  16. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Well, my 2001 Focus only gets 24-5 mpg, which isn't great, but mine is modified for performance, and I have a lead foot.
     
  17. BenTheMan Dr. of Physics, Prof. of Love Valued Senior Member

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    My 2002 Chevy Pickup gets 15 mpg, and has really big tires.
     
  18. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    That's it?
    That's really surprising.
    My V8, 340 HP, heavy, Hemi powered, Dodge Magnum averages about 20 MPG.
    I have a lead foot and live in one of the most traffic congested parts of the nation.
     
  19. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Perhaps because your V8 doesn't have to work as hard as my puny 2 liter inline4. It's not a Corolla or Echo.
     
  20. valich Registered Senior Member

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    Swivel: This is an excellent essay. Can you post your sources. I like to keep them for future reference. What is "nickel foam"?
     
  21. swivel Sci-Fi Author Valued Senior Member

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    http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188

    I didn't write it. I provided a link at the top of my original post to the source, and put the entire essay in quote-tags so as to not take credit.

    Nickel foam is just a fancy electrode. Think of the amount of surface area that a sponge has, and that is the same concept. Trying to get as much contact area with the battery acid as possible to create a faster cycling battery.
     
  22. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Actually, I've been there and while dirty it didn't look like a "dead zone" to me. Maybe I wasn't close enough to the plant but I could see the stack, so...
     
  23. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    I still want to know how they came up with these huge costs per mile.
     

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