Fundamental versus Moderate Islam

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Michael, Jan 22, 2007.

  1. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Fundamental versus Moderate Islam

    OK, sorry for the long list, but here are what I suppose Fundamental Muslims think. What I would like is for Moderate Muslims, if any want to participate, to read through the list and pick out where Moderate Muslim belief differs. The reason why I ask is I want to know what distinguishes a Moderate from a Fundamental Muslim. At least in these regards.

    1. Mohammed was the Last Prophet anyone who believes otherwise is wrong.
    2. The Baha’i are sinning by suggesting there was another Prophet.
    3. Bahá'u'lláh was not a prophet of God.
    4. The Bahá'í Faith is not correct.
    5. Mohammed never made a mistake nor ever sinned.
    6. Mohammed’s life should be held up as the ideal life and his actions emulated.
    7. Mohammed killed non-Believers in war.
    8. Sometimes it is correct to kill.
    9. Eating pork is a sin.
    10. A person who is martyred will be rewarded in the afterlife.
    11. There is only one God and to believe there is more than one is wrong.
    12. The Xian Bible is flawed in some manner.
    13. The Torah is flawed in some manner.
    14. Jesus was a just prophet and Xians are wrong to think he was the Christos.
    15. The square rock in Arabia is special to God.
    16. The polytheistic Arabs, pre-Islam, where not correct in their beliefs.
    17. The Qur’an is perfect.
    18. The Qur’an is written in pure Arabic.
    19. The polytheistic beliefs of Shinto Japanese is not correct.
    20. The beliefs of Buddhism are in some manner not correct.
    21. There is no such thing as reincarnation.
    22. It is correct behavior, under the appropriate conditions, for a male to have 3 female wives.
    23. Homosexual sex is a sin.
    24. There is an afterlife.
    25. Allah will judge a persons life and may grant them rewards in heaven.
    26. Allah will punish some people in the afterlife.
    27. Islamic belief is better than all other religious beliefs.
    28. A Muslim should never change their religion to Hinduism.
    29. A Muslim should never change their religion to Xiantiy.
    30. A Muslim should never change their religion to Buddhism.
    31. A Muslim should never change their religion to Judaism.
    32. The destruction of false idols to prevent idolatry is good.
    33. The worship of idols is a sin.
    34. The reason many Islamic countries are in the mess they are in is because they are not practicing the “true” form of Islam.
    35. It would be better if the World were completely Islamic and every person was Muslim.
    36. Atheism is a sin.
    37. It is wrong to build Hindu temples in the KSA.
    38. Children should be taught to be Muslim at a very early age.
    39. An Islamic government is better than a Secular government.
    40. The Xian crusades were wrong.
    41. The Muslim conquest of Spain and Constantinople were good.
    42. A tax on non-Muslims is good.
    43. Shiara Law is better than Secular law.


    So, what I’m curious about is: Where do Moderate Muslims differ in belief?

    Thanks,
    Michael II
     
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  3. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    So many questions!

    Yes, for Muslims.
    A prophet (nabi) is different from a messenger (rasul). Prophets are given revelations while messengers are teachers. Mohammed is the last revealer but no doubt there may be other teachers.


    I don't think he claimed to be a prophet, he claimed to be a teacher/redeemer.

    Sorry don't really know much about it, so cannot comment.

    He did his best and followed the teachings of Islam to the best of his ability. Thats all anyone can be expected to do.
    Mohammed himself was against people writing down his exploits. However, people generally need example rather than precept.
    He defended himself and his people as any good leader would do.

    Yes, in self-defence and to protect many innocents from a terrorist/criminal

    Its not healthy, just like eating blood or carcass. In case of no other alternative, however, there is no harm.

    No fundamentalist/moderate believes that, only those who need cannon fodder for political causes.

    Thats the basis of Islam and is mandatory for Muslims.
    Not flawed, so much as not representative of the Gospels of Christ


    No


    Jesus was a most beloved Prophet, considered more beloved than Mohammed, and yes, he is not considered divine

    The "square rock" is a hollow cube which houses a room and has a door. It is used as the qibla (direction for prayers). It is believed to have been first built by Abraham (not the present construction, of course, but the original one). It is special to Muslims as a meeting point and a focus of their faith. No special association with God that I know of. In fact, Muhammed earlier used Jerusalem as the qibla and only changed later to Mecca.


    The polytheism of the pre-Islamic Arabs consisted of djinns, demons and demi-gods probably in the Mediterranean tradition.

    In that it contains all the directions required for a fulfilling life
    Archaic Arabic, with Judeo-Christian and other roots familiar in use at the time but now not so much.


    No idea what they are.

    Actually Buddhism follows self-actualisation which is also what the Quran promotes, so the teachings are not adverse to Muslims

    Correct. This is all there is


    In times of war or under circumstances when men are less in number, women may marry an already married man for the purpose of having a family or for economic protection, if they so desire, yes. Women must consent to the marriage.

    Not addressed in the Quran at all

    Yes, though what it entails is unknown


    Yes everyone is accountable for every atom of good or bad they do.


    For a Muslim, yes, otherwise they would not be Muslims

    Anyone who does not believe in Islam is not a Muslim anyway. Does not really matter whether they change to another belief or not.
    Doesn't stop Muslims from idolising the Prophet, does it?
    Anyway what other people do is no business of any Muslim
    Also because they are under dictators and most of them don't really study the religion anyway, just follow the rules laid down in their society blindly.

    For Muslims, probably yes. However there are other people in the world who are not Muslim, so its not a realistic notion.


    Religious freedom is a given in the Quran, and jiziya is taken, inter alia, for maintenance of religion structures, so the above two are not true, or at the least, not open to judgment by men.


    That is a decision for parents to make. An atheist will not teach his child Islam.


    In what context? An ideal Islamic government would be secular, but human nature would make it highly unlikely, few secular governments are secular anyway.

    All politically motivated, no religious reasons.
    Sure why not? Muslims are taxed too, and to a greater extent; non-Muslims should pay tax as well, just like in all countries.
    Depends entirely on the government. What think you of the Patriot Act?

    The basic beliefs are identical in all Muslims they differ mostly in the importance they give to practice of the religion and the religious freedom they give themselves as well as others, this is related more to their education and socio-economic status as well as their awareness of Islamic theology than anything else. The less people know about the religion, the more likely they are to have erroneous beliefs about it and the more vulnerable they are to exploitation and brain washing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2007
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  5. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Sam
    is there a scriptural reference or commentary for this?
     
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  7. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Hmm thats a general belief, but no, I don't believe there is a scriptural reference for it.

    edit:

    I found this:
     
  8. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    any ideas how it came about?
     
  9. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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  10. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    I just found this



     
  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I'll have to look at the original verses. Translations are highly unreliable.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Light, what do you think of this?


    See this article:
    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EL25Aa02.html
     
  13. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    do you have any idea what he is exactly talking about here???

     
  14. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Nope, thats why I asked you. Is it a Vedic concept?
     
  15. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Slightly different interpretation here.
     
  16. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    putting aside their understandings of the chronology of the vedas, i would also contend this
    there are stacks of scriptural eg.'s of living entities receiving inferior moulds (lower station in the universe/society/species) - in fact they are so common place in the vedas that I think he may be talking about something else again (either that or he has never read much of the vedas ....)
     
  17. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Perhaps he is maker finer distinctions between different scriptures? I am not that familiar with details.
     
  18. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    This is from the wiki page:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation
     
  19. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Hi Sam,

    Thanks, sorry about all the questions and even though you seem to be the only Muslim to answer – at least it’s not a complete waste of time as are many of these flame-charred threads.

    I am still trying to clear up a few things:

    #1
    OK, the Bahá'í actually do believe Bahá'u'lláh was a Prophet; A Prophet even greater than Mohammed – or so they think anyway. Well then, with this in mind, is their belief incorrect or correct?

    Also,lets suppose the Bahá'í Faith begins to win many many Muslim converts – from within a mostly Islamic country. Assuming you are in a position of influence - What would you do to address the title-wave of Muslim converts into the Bahá'í Faith? Suppose, millions of Muslims are leaving Islam and becoming Bahá'í - what do you do? Applaud their religious enlightenment or discourage Muslims to Bahá'í conversion?

    #2
    I’m still not clear. Was Mohammed sinless?

    #3
    Four questions:
    A) Did Mohammed personally kill anyone?
    B) Did Mohammed order the death of anyone?
    C) As the leader, did Mohammed allow the death of people when it was within his power to prevent these deaths?
    D) Morally speaking: Is there a difference between ‘A’ ‘B’ or ‘C’?

    # 4
    Is pork more or less unhealthy than chicken or beef? Japanese eat pork all day everyday – they live longer than anyone on the planet (I personally suspect that eating fish meat with a mostly vegetarian diet the best). Anyway, I have never read in a medical journal that eating pork is any worse than is eating most any other mammalian meat.
    Do you think there is something inherently unhealthy about pork over and above other mammalian meat? If so why?

    #6
    To be clear, there is only one reality? Anyone who thinks there is more than one God (or that there is no God) is incorrect in their beleif?

    #7
    The Bible is the inerrant Word of God or has, in some manner, error?

    #8
    Yes or no, polytheists are correct or incorrect in their belief?

    #9
    The Qur’an is or is not ‘perfect’?

    #11
    While not a Buddhists, I was under the impression that the basic underlying belief in Buddhism is that a plane of reality, outside of the Karma Cycle, exists. This reality is above the Gods (above Allah) and it is a reality that you may one day reach. There may be many Gods, Allah may be one of them, you may reach a higher state of consciousness than Allah.

    Not ‘just for Muslims’ but in ‘reality (that is, the real world as you know it): Is this belief correct?

    #12
    To be clear:
    Is it correct or incorrect behavior to destroy Idols that people worship as Gods?

    #13
    I think the Patriot Act sucks arse! I am also willing to live with f*ck-up Laws like it if my society can learn from these mistakes and become better for it. As I understand - the Patriot Act as it stands will not be renewed by the new Congress?

    So with this in mind I was unclear:
    A society ran by Shiara Law is better than one ran by any single set of Secular laws?

    Getting there

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    Michael


    # Is this correct: Summary so Far:

    - Islam is the best religion.
    - In an ‘Ideal’ world everyone would be Muslim.
    - If ‘true’ Islam is followed the society will be a perfect one.
    - A special tax for non-Muslims is good.
    - Muslims are NOT rewarded in the afterlife for Martyrdom.
    - Homosexuality is perfectly fine within Islam.
    - Reincarnation is not true and does not happen.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2007
  20. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Ok
    Well the Christians think Jesus is divine right? So the messengers are not responsible for what people make of them.

    Anyway, my position (as a moderate Muslim) is that everyone is entitled to their own interpretation of faith. Ours is not to reason why, etc.

    See above.
    He was a Prophet, so yes, he is considered to be sinless.

    A. No idea
    B. No idea
    C. He did not advocate killing people, if thats what you're asking. There is some Hadith about a member of his group killing people during some skirmish and when he heard about it, Mohammed was stricken and asked God that he not be held responsible for it.

    Its essential to cook pork really well to get rid of parasites it is commonly associated with, e.g. trichinosis and toxoplasmosis

    Pigs also share some viral infections with humans, so people are more likely to get exposure on eating pork.

    Some diseases are exclusive to non-Muslims:
    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1125409
    See above

    The Bible is the inerrant word of God. Is it still inerrant?
    Who knows?

    If they are Muslims they are.

    If they are not Muslims, its really none of my concern what they believe.

    Did I miss something here?
    Its a perfect guide for living.
    Buddhism can be religious or merely spiritual.

    In a mixed world, any one religion dominating would have the same effect as any one group dominating, others would be assigned a minority status.

    Incorrect, of course. One is only responsible for one's own faith, no one elses.

    The very fact that it can be written and passed speaks volumes.
    Sharia is no different from other laws. Laws are selected and applied based on the government in power and can be as liberal or as conservative as the government applying it. In a democratoc set up, Sharia can be useful, not much different from secular laws.


    Yup. Just to clarify, there is also a "special tax" on Muslims from which non-Muslims are exempt, so its not a special tax, so much as reduced tax used for different purposes. This can be emphasised by the fact that all Muslims continue to pay their religious dues (zakat) in addition to government taxes, regardless of whether they are in a Muslim or non-Muslim country.
     
  21. IceAgeCivilizations Banned Banned

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    A mere human cannot be sinless, only the One who claims to be the Son of God could be sinless, and after reading about Muhammed's antics, he clearly was not sinless anyway.
     
  22. IceAgeCivilizations Banned Banned

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    "He (Muhammed) did not advocate killing people," is that a joke Sam?
     
  23. IceAgeCivilizations Banned Banned

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    Hey Sam, did Muhammed advocate Muslim theocracies wherever they could be established?
     

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