buddhism and science

[Sauna]

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[VitalOne]

But I don't interpret rebirth or Karma to be supernatural. Nirvana is alot of things, and escape from rebirth is just one benefit, not the primary concern. I think a religion has been built up around Buddhism, but for me, the essence of Buddhism is best expressed in Zen Buddhism. I guess you never read Buddhism, the Religion of No Religion, by Alan Watts?

I don't interpret God, reincarnation, a soul, etc...as supernatural...but atheists do. Who is Alan Watts? Some white guy? Yeah, thats what I thought...

You can say the same about many Hindu philosophies also, as you can about any religion really....a "religion of no religion"....

[Sauna]

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[spidergoat]

Don't be dissin' the Watts, he's the dude. He has contributed alot to stripping Buddhism from it's supernatural and religious claptrap, and rekindling an interest in alot of Americans.

[Sauna]

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[shakushinnen]

Hi Sauna,
"You assume too much." I'm sorry. I didn't mean to sound condescending."
"...and yet the whole trip revolves around the words of the one individual." I presume you mean the buddha. I wasn't going to bring it up, but, well that's one of the real problems with buddhism. Truth is, it doesn't revolve around the words of one individual, if it did maybe it would be easier to fathom. Chronologically there was a 300 year spread between the buddha's death and any attempts to make hard copies of his teachings. (I think you can already see the problem.) This means that the records were layed down, not by him, not even by his disciples, but by their descendents, 10, 20, generations removed. Now, I've been assured by the experts that the peoples of that period had much better memories than we, but this is TOO much. No message can be passed on by rote over 300 years, without serious alterations, intentional or not. This is compounded by the fact that, well, people are people, and we all like to put our own spin on it. The upshot of all this is that, in my opinion, NO ONE knows exactly what the buddha said, and it makes me choke when I hear people say that they're quoting him. So what's left. Despite all this, what seems to have survived is a philosophy, path, way of life, whatever you like (I don't call it a religion.) which shows remarkable insight into human nature.
If you want to discuss specific aspects of buddhism I will do so. But be aware, I do not know everything, and I do not speak for all, probably no, buddhists. But I will try, and I will not bullshit you.
John

[spidergoat]

I should ask again then, what did the Watts version do to deal with reality?

Interactions with society crumbled because of it, with human casualities here there and everywhere, and it was not so easy to get back up again as it was to fall down.

The Hippies' hope failed miserably.

There is no "Watts version" of Buddhism, and his connection with freaks and hippies is incidental. Not all hippies were Buddhist, and there are still Buddhists and hippies all over, but Buddhism has thrived on the west coast.

[Sauna]

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[Sauna]

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[shakushinnen]

Hi Sauna,
"in which respect I have been wondering where you get that from." I assume you mean the 300 year gap. Many buddhist texts claim this. I don't really know how accurate it is. The point is that - much of what is called buddhism is interpretation, at best, of what the buddha said. I would guess that Christians have a similar conundrum, although probably not as severe, since Christ lived 500 years closer to us.
E-Sangha. Yes, I know what you mean. I didn't find that a completely enlightening experience either.
"I wonder none the less what alternative understanding is to be had of it apart from their usual response, the blaming of the victim."
I'm not sure what you're referring to??
Sauna - I think you should understand that I do not subscribe to many of the popularly held conceptions or beliefs ascribed to buddhism. I cannot defend other people's statements. What I have learned, comes from the amalgamation of several sources: reading, observing, practicing, teachers, and other buddhists, always with the emphasis on 'what works for me'. I cannot defend the practices or statements of other buddhists.
John

[spidergoat]

How then should one refer to Buddhism stripped from it's supernatural and religious claptrap, if not as the Watts version?

The common denominator between Buddhist sects. The underlying principles and ideas. He didn't invent anything new.

[Sauna]

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[spidergoat]

Why then do other sects declare that his pronouncements were misconceived?

Examples? Different schools of Buddhism do have disputes. His history of Zen is quite balanced and objective.

He is not only commonly credited with inventing what is now commonly known as "Beatnick Buddhism", to seduce the Californian culture shoppers he gave the product a new name and deliberately distinguished the characteristics of it, e.g. with "Beat Zen , Square Zen and Zen."

This was just something that happened when Eastern Zen practitioners started showing up on the west coast. Watts didn't invent it, he just wrote about it.

In terms of underlying principle or idea, Zen as something to preach in books is the very antithesis of the original alternative, the ordinary practice of it, conveyed by example.

He made no presumptions of being a Zen master, only an amateur historian and enthusiast.

A basic precept of Buddhism, for instance, an essential common denominator was otherwise supposed to be to eschew alcohol, the neglect of which precept is in this case reputed to have caused his untimely death.

He would not dispute that abstaining from alcohol is a precept. Following the precepts is a personal choice with varying degrees of success depending on the person. The precepts are not fundamentalist proclamations, but guides to avoiding the factors which tend to prevent spiritual attainment.



even before trees rocks I was nothing
when I'm dead nowhere I'll be nothing

this ink painting of wind blowing through pines
who hears it?

sin like a madman until you can't do anything else
no room for any more

fuck flattery success money
all I do is lie back and suck my thumb

one long pure beautiful road of pain
and the beauty of death and no pain

mirror facing mirror
nowhere else

passion's red thread is infinite
like the earth always under me

a woman is enlightenment when you're with her and the red thread
of both your passions flare inside you and you see

your name Mori means forest like the infinite fresh
green distances of your blindness

my monk friend has a wierd endearing habit
he weaves sandals and leaves them secretly by the roadside

no words sitting alone night in my hut eyes closed hands open
wisps of an unknown face

we're lost where the mind can't find us
utterly lost



15th Century Zen master Ikkyu

[spidergoat]

Fame, wealth, eating and
drinking, sleep and sensual delight --
Once you’ve leaned the Five Desires
They become
Your guide in life

Notions of what one should do
Never existed from the start
Fighting about what’s right, what’s wrong
That’s the doing of the "I"

When your study
Of Buddhism is through
You find
You haven’t anything new


Bankei

(1622-1693) -- from his "Song of Original Mind"

[Sauna]

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[spidergoat]

I'm not really sure what you're getting at. From what I've read of Watts, he is humble and non-judgemental.

[Sauna]

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[Light Travelling]

I hate it when people think Buddhism is so different from other religions and there's nothing supernatural in it...they watch TV and hear stuff but they don't read the actual Buddhist scriptures

I couldn’t agree more…..

They may read some introductions to Buddhism by Dalai Lama or such like, but never go any further.. these introduction are toned down to be acceptable to a western readership. Reading the sutras themselves is a different matter. It can take a lifetime to come to terms with some of the Buddhist texts... people read one introduction and think they understand it all..

[Light Travelling]

To answer the thread question though;

Science is the pursuit of knowledge………. Buddhism is also the pursuit of knowledge.


(Possibly the most important step on the eight fold path is right knowledge.. )



Therefore……....Buddhism is science.