It is my affirmation that religion - all religion, mind you - is essentially sorcery. That, barring perhaps a Diabolic influence in some magic systems, the rituals of magic and religion are the same. For this reason, I have compiled a list. Religion on the left, witchcraft on the right. Power words/phrases (amen) | Power words/phrases ("so mote it be") The shattering of effigies | The shattering of effigies The usage of consecrated tools | The usage of consecrated tools Spiritual healing | Spiritual healing The usage of mantras and prayers | The usage of mantras/incantations The usage of consecrated amulets and necklaces | The usage of consecrated amulets and necklaces and sigils Special languages | Special languages Ecstasy | Ecstasy Spirit possession and inspiration | Spirit possession and inspiration The usage of angels, demi-Gods, and saints | The usage of angels, elementals, demi-Gods, saints, demons, lesser creatures... A ritual space (a church, a temple) | A ritual space (a circle, a grove) Clergy | Clergy Group participation | Group participation Holy books | Holy books Prophets and teachers | Great magicians and teachers A belief in mind over matter | A belief in mind over matter Repetition of special phrases after certain words or phrases | Repetition of special phrases after certain words or phrases The usage of music | The usage of music Holidays/special days | Holidays/special days Sacrifice | Sacrifice Transusbstantiation | Transubstantiation Visualization | Visualization Special signs | Special signs And many...many more, I am sure.
Well congrats Prince, now you have shown us that all mysticism is basically the same crap! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
witchcraft has many connatations that will no doubt bewilder people because it is quite a loaded term - anyway from the vedic perspective its crystal clear, due to the paradigm of breaking down existence into three gunas (the part that deals with the samkhya philosophy), one can determine 81 different types of religiousity so there are some people who perform religiousity in the name of sattva guna (for the purpose of understanding god) raja guna (for th e purpose of securing material facility for enjoyment) and tamo guna (for the pursuit of getting what one wants, eg revenge, destruction, belittling/controlling others etc) and there are different parts of the vedas that they utilize to achieve these means. In other words the distinction between "sorcery" (as you so mystically phrased it) and religion is that religion culminates in understanding god, whereas the other two types are inferior because they only dabble in the phenomenal world of matter (either gross or subtle)
YOU FORGOT A FEW... baby sacrafice / baby fund raiser. devil worship / some form of good true god worship. evil intent / humility and good works. self gratification / helping others. black magic / prayer for the ill or in need. there is alot of simliarities it is true... but what you simply fail to see is that witchcraft... is another religion. as would be sorcery... or wizardry... depending on what they are based. there are all forms of religions.... that does not make them all bad. -MT
Anytime I see a really decked out Monk or Preist ect.. I always think to myself: Misty morning, clouds in the sky Without warning, the wizard walks by Casting his shadow, weaving his spell Funny clothes, tinkling bell Never talking Just keeps walking spreading his magic Evil power disappears Demons worry when the wizard is near He turns tears into joy Everyone's happy when the wizard walks by Never talking Just keeps walking spreading his magic Sun is shining, clouds have gone by All the people give a happy sigh He has passed by, giving his sign Left all the people feeling so fine Never talking Just keeps walking spreading his magic Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! MII
Godless: Glad to be of service. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! LightGigantic: It is interesting to note that at least some forms of magic are specifically for a religious purpose in mind. The Qabbalah, Aleister Crowley's form of magic, and Neo-Platonic and Christian alchemy, to name but a few, aspire towards realization of God and spiritual enhancement. Even the Black Pullet, an 18th century Grimoire, demands religious purity, as does the magic of Abramelin the Mage. Indeed, magic in the West, as well as in the East (re: Tantra, Taoist mysticism) has always had a spiritual component. Mosheh Thezion: Religions sacrifice all sorts of things. Children amongst them. Most systems of magic focus on the -enslavement- of demons (evocation v. invocation). Several worship regular Gods. Magic can be used for both, and prayer most certainly is often self-centred (please God let me find a nice wife, or please God get me a new job...) And religion is filled with curses, hexes, and various other things, asked in the name of God. The Old Testament is basically one big Jewish prayer book to smite everyone around them and make them kings, for instance, and Allah helped Muhammad crush his Arab neighbours.
PJ the point is that these things are not pure religion (ie endeavours done solely for the purpose of understanding god) sincethe act of performing some nefarious task to acquire the woman of one's dreams (or alternatively get rid of the woman of your nightmares) is not a prerequisite for self realization
Lightgigantic: Yes, but just as the Vedas have various curses and hexes (re: the Atharva Veda) so do these systems allow for such. Although in the end, such is considered to be inferior and oft-times immoral to use. But my post wasn't actually in support of a positive conception of witchcraft and religion, but pointing out that ultiomately there is not substantial difference.
You can find references where the vedas are referred to "the three vedas" (rather than the four) since the arthava was not viewed as necessary. In other words it was not seen as necessary - you have to understand that the vedas are instructions for EVERYONE - not just the theisticly pure (90% of the vedas deal with fruitive activities, 9% deals with empiricism and speculation and 1% deals with pure unmotivated pure devotion to god, which is why the krsna recommends in the BG (which is seen as an overview of the vedas) that arjuna be transcendental to those parts of the vedas, ie 99% of it, that deals with the three modes of nature) BG 2.45 The Vedas deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material nature. O Arjuna, become transcendental to these three modes. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the self. BTW - the facility to dabble in the modes given by the vedas does not reflect god's view of what it ultimately worth while - it is more of a concession for the living entity to accept practices that will gradually purify them (fruitive activity and speculation )
LightGigantic: Granted, but considering they are of minor usage towards that ultimate goal you find worthy of pursuing, you will accept that there is at least some degree of foundation in their usages, yes?
They are not of minor use - actually speculation and fruitive activity are considered impediments to pure devotion for god - the advantage about dovetailing such inclinations within the injunctions of the vedas is that they can be purified
I’m still waiting for the definition of what constitutes a ‘holy ‘man’. Let us begin with the word “holy”.
Lightgigantic: In association with the vedas giving good karma that leads one to spiritual devotion? Baron Max: Not really, no.
A person may have been a solider before they were a car mechanic, but being a car mechanic is not dependant on being a solider. In other words correct karma does not lead to devotion, since devotion is independant of karma (there are numerous scriptural quotations of the material erudite being disqualified from devotion to god and the grossly sinful being qualified - the only requirement for pure devotional service is the association of a personality who is situated in pure devotion The only argument you can offer from the side of pious works is that it can be a good field for preperation - to use a metaphor, you have a better chance of starting a fire if you have dry kindling rather than wet logs, but ultimately it is dependant on having a source of fire - and if the source of fire is potent enough (ie if the rightly situated pure devotee is potent enough) the dampness/dryness of the material to be burnt is not an issue (ie the piety/impiety of the candidate for spiritual life is not an issue) - all that is required is the suitable association between the source of fire and the material to be burnt