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Thread: MPACUK founder sends funds to David Irving

  1. #1
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    MPACUK founder sends funds to David Irving

    Birds of a feather do what together?

    Muslim leader sent funds to Irving

    Islamic activist admits he donated cash to jailed historian who denied the Holocaust


    Jamie Doward , home affairs editor
    Sunday November 19, 2006
    The Observer

    One of Britain's most prominent speakers on Muslim issues is today exposed as a supporter of David Irving, the controversial historian who for years denied the Holocaust took place.

    Asghar Bukhari, a founder member of the Muslim Public Affairs Committee (MPAC), which describes itself as Britain's largest Muslim civil rights group, sent money to Irving and urged Islamic websites to ask visitors to make donations to his fighting fund.

    Bukhari contacted the discredited historian, sentenced this year to three years in an Austrian prison for Holocaust denial, after reading his website. He headed his mail to Irving with a quotation attributed to the philosopher John Locke: 'All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good people to stand idle.'
    Well, that much is true, anyway.

    In one email Bukhari tells Irving: 'You may feel like you are on your own but rest assured many people are with you in your fight for the Truth.' Bukhari pledges to make a donation of £60 to Irving's fighting fund and says that he has asked 'a few of my colleagues to send some in too'. He also offers to send Irving a book, They Dare to Speak Out, by Paul Findley, a former US Senator, who has attacked his country's close relationship with Israel. Bukhari says Findley 'has suffered like you in trying to expose certain falsehoods perpetrated by the Jews'.
    'The Jews'. Not 'the Israelis'. And what 'truths' is Irving meant to be exposing that Buhkari believes so strongly in? Hmm.

    Ghost, of course, tells me that MPACUK is a tolerant, moderate, kind-hearted organization. I wonder how that last bit qualifies as tolerant or moderate. Well, I'm sure he has some excuse handy. And if this is what Buhkari is saying in English, I wonder what his comments in Arabic might be like?

    In a follow-up letter, Bukhari writes: 'Here is the cheque I promised. Good luck, if there is any other way I can help please don't hestitate to call me. I have also asked many Muslim websites to create links to your own and ask for donations.'

    Bukhari confirmed sending the letters in 2000. 'I had a lot of sympathy for anyone who opposed Israel,' Bukhari told The Observer said. 'I wrote letters to anyone who was tough against the Israelis - David Irving, Paul Findley, the PLO."I don't feel I have done anything wrong, to be honest. At the time I was of the belief he [Irving] was anti-Zionist, being smeared for nothing more then being anti-Zionist.

    'The pro-Israeli lobby often accused people of anti-Semitism and smear tactics against groups and individuals is well known. I condemn anti-Semitism as strongly as I condemn Zionism (in my opinion they are both racist ideologies). I also believe that anyone who denies the Holocaust is wrong (I don't think they should be put behind bars for it though).'

    At his trial this year, Irving said he had been 'mistaken' to say the gas chambers did not exist. He had been due to attend a conference hosted by Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, questioning the 'truthfulness' of the Holocaust.

    'David Irving was described by a High Court judge as a falsifier of history and a false denier,' said Karen Pollock, chief executive of the Holocaust Educational Trust. 'I can't understand why anyone would want to support his views, let alone encourage and influence others to sympathise with them. I'm appalled.'

    Earlier this year, speaking on behalf of MPAC, Bukhari said a march in London in protest at the publication of satirical cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad should not have gone ahead. 'We believe it should have been banned and the march stopped,' Bukhari said. 'Freedom of speech has to be responsible.'

    MPAC was banned from university campuses in 2004 after being branded 'anti-semitic' by the National Union of Students. It is becoming increasingly influential within the Muslim community. At the last election the organisation drew up a list of Labour candidates with links to Israel, whom it urged Muslims to vote out. One MP, Lorna Fitzsimons, lost her seat to the Lib Dems by 400 votes.

    'Getting into bed with Holocaust revisionists who are the heroes of racist organisations which use Islamophobia to divide communities on racial and religious grounds is just extraordinary and very, very sad,' Fitzsimons said.

    MPAC, which strongly denies allegations that it is anti-semitic, accused The Observer of 'twisting an innocent gesture of support (even if gravely mistaken) into more than it is'. The story was 'just another Islamaphobic attack aimed at undermining and harming the brave individuals who support the Palestinian cause and the cause of Muslims within Britain.'
    At the expense of everyone else, apparently. Now, MPACUK did stop that march, and Buhkari says that he was only on Irvings' side before he knew the man was anti-semitic. But it seems a bit unlikely, especially in light of his letter to Irving, that that was true. Ghost, of course, tells me that the MCB and MPACUK are great organizations full of fine fellows - and I suppose when it's the other guy you're hating, that might appear to be true.

    Ghost?


  2. #2
    Registered Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie Doward - The Observer
    Asghar Bukhari, a founder member of the Muslim Public Affairs Committee (MPAC), which describes itself as Britain's largest Muslim civil rights group, sent money to Irving and urged Islamic websites to ask visitors to make donations to his fighting fund.

    Bukhari contacted the discredited historian, sentenced this year to three years in an Austrian prison for Holocaust denial, after reading his website. He headed his mail to Irving with a quotation attributed to the philosopher John Locke: 'All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good people to stand idle.'
    http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/3028/35/

    Like every pro-Palestinian advocate, from Ken Livingstone to Christian Aid, we've endured the false smear of anti-Semitism. Recently we were accused of anti-Semitism on the basis of an article that was actually written by a Jewish Israeli blogger!

    These false accusations are a classic tactic by the Zionist lobby: "The main purpose behind these periodic, meticulously orchestrated media extravaganzas is not to fight anti-Semitism but rather to exploit the historical suffering of the Jews in order to immunize Israel against criticism.". (Finkelstein, Beyond Chutzpah, 2005, p.21)
    The truth is that an individual who is now a member of MPACUK made a mistake 6 years ago - before this organisation even existed. At that time, acting as a private individual with no associations to any group, Asghar Bukhari supported and sent money and letters to anyone who he saw as people who stood up to Israel, and their powerful lobbies within Britain and the world. At that time, David Irving championed himself as exactly that, fashioning himself as a respectable historian, and writing articles opposing the Israeli lobby and Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians - and appealing for funds for the libel case in which he denied accusations of anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial. Now, 6 years and 2 Irving court cases later, a journalist Jamie Doward at the Observer has somehow come across a letter and small cheque to David Irving.

    Mr Bukhari must have known David Irving would be convicted 6 years later of holocaust denial? If Asghar Bukhari had known of David Irving's holocaust denial and racism he would have condemned him, not given him any support!

    The Observer has previously had to issue a correction after this same journalist Jamie Doward smeared SOAS University's Islam Awareness Week as being anti-Semitic. So we weren't surprised to find his article to be biased, but the plain fact is that MPACUK have been very clear in our condemnation of holocaust denial - we laid out our views when controversy hit the media over the government's new Holocaust Memorial Day. If anyone denies the Holocaust they are very wrong - Holocaust denial is an evil that must be opposed. If they hate Jewish people, if they see them as one block then this is an utterly abhorrent opinion that must be condemned. None of our members hold such abhorrent views. The Qur'an teaches us that Jews are respected as 'People of the Book' and that among them are both good and bad individuals. You cannot be a Muslim if you believe otherwise. It is Zionists who often stereotype all Jews as supporters of the evil acts of Zionism, when in fact there are many Jews who actively campaign for the human rights of the Palestinians.

    Asghar Bukhari's mistake 6 years ago was to judge on the basis of the limited number of David Irving's articles he had seen, and assume that accusations of anti-Semitism against him were simply another smear campaign. In 2000 when this incident occurred Irving was fighting a libel case and the key principle in our legal system is 'innocent until proven guilty'. Now that it has become clear that Irving does in fact hold such dispicable views Asghar Bukhari has no hesitation in opposing him.
    _____________

    Bukhari confirmed sending the letters in 2000. 'I had a lot of sympathy for anyone who opposed Israel,' Bukhari told The Observer said. 'I wrote letters to anyone who was tough against the Israelis - David Irving, Paul Findley, the PLO."I don't feel I have done anything wrong, to be honest. At the time I was of the belief he [Irving] was anti-Zionist, being smeared for nothing more then being anti-Zionist.

    'The pro-Israeli lobby often accused people of anti-Semitism and smear tactics against groups and individuals is well known. I condemn anti-Semitism as strongly as I condemn Zionism (in my opinion they are both racist ideologies). I also believe that anyone who denies the Holocaust is wrong (I don't think they should be put behind bars for it though).'
    Game, set and match.

  3. #3
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    LMAO

    The truth is that an individual who is now a member of MPACUK made a mistake 6 years ago - before this organisation even existed. At that time, acting as a private individual with no associations to any group, Asghar Bukhari supported and sent money and letters to anyone who he saw as people who stood up to Israel, and their powerful lobbies within Britain and the world.
    And this explains why he used the phrase "the Jews" as opposed to say, "the evil right-wingers" or "the Zionists" or "the Israelis" or...well, just about anything else. No, what he said was "expose certain falsehoods perpetrated by the Jews". Hmm. Now why would he use that phrase, this independent, completely isolated individual...who would shortly afterwards go on to found MPACUK?

    At that time, David Irving championed himself as exactly that, fashioning himself as a respectable historian
    Which is why Buhkari used the phrase "expose certain falsehoods perpetrated by the Jews"?

    Now, 6 years and 2 Irving court cases later, a journalist Jamie Doward at the Observer has somehow come across a letter and small cheque to David Irving.
    In which Buhkari uses the phrase "expose certain falsehoods perpetrated by the Jews".

    Mr Bukhari must have known David Irving would be convicted 6 years later of holocaust denial? If Asghar Bukhari had known of David Irving's holocaust denial and racism he would have condemned him, not given him any support!
    Which is, again, why Mr. Buhkari used the phrase "expose certain falsehoods perpetrated by the Jews".

    The Qur'an teaches us that Jews are respected as 'People of the Book' and that among them are both good and bad individuals.
    Good if they really follow islam, bad otherwise; yes, we know, we know. I wonder if I should investigate MPACUK's statement on the Holocaust Memorial Day, and see what precisely they said.

    Asghar Bukhari's mistake 6 years ago was to judge on the basis of the limited number of David Irving's articles he had seen
    And concluded that it was ok to write "expose certain falsehoods perpetrated by the Jews" in a letter to him.

    and assume that accusations of anti-Semitism against him were simply another smear campaign.
    Well, that happens equally to Nazis and religious fascists, it's true. So sad! *sniff*

    Now that it has become clear that Irving does in fact hold such dispicable views Asghar Bukhari has no hesitation in opposing him.
    Which is why Buhkari repudiated him long before this letter ever surfaced in the public - eh? What's that you say? Buhkari didn't damn Irving before the letter was found, and before he exhorted islamic websites to send him cash? How odd. And how odd that an islamic interest is found in a Holocaust denier in the first place.

    Strange congruences these times bring.

    And will MPACUK also oppose Buhkari? See, I remember, he wrote this letter to Irving the Holocaust denier, and he used the phrase "expose certain falsehoods perpetrated by the Jews".

    Now why, I wonder, did he phrase it that way?
    _____________

    Game, set and match.
    Yes.

    To me.

    Ghost, I've missed you.

  4. #4
    Dear Geoff,

    i hope all is going well with you.

    Really you should be enlightened by Ghost, that he is not being influenced by any radical elemnts and that he still looks for mderation in situations or i n things people have said. rather than saying yes this guy has a point yes the holocaust never happened etc...It appears to me that you are trying to draw extremism from everything any muslim says.....

    I dont know much about this story so please forgive me for showing ignorance but if Bukhari did send money to irwin knowing he was a supporter of holocuast denying but later denied that he knew irwin was a holocaust denier then surely Bukhari is at least undertsanding that it was a bad position to take, that is if he did know david irwin was a holocaust denier in the first place.

    i hope this makes sense to you, please ask me to elaborate if you wish...

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~
    take care
    zak

  5. #5
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    Rather than saying "yes this guy has a point the Holocaust never happened"?

    Dear me. Now why would I call that extremist? And how am I 'trying to draw extremism from this statement'? The statement is swimming in it.

    If Buhkari knew - and from his phrase, above, it is abundantly clear that he did - it was more than a bad position to take. It was the overt support of a monster. Yet Ghost is afraid to look too deeply at his heroes in the MCB, in MPACUK. And these, he claims, are the moderates.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    Rather than saying "yes this guy has a point the Holocaust never happened"?
    .
    hey geoff thank you for this.

    but ghost never said this geoff thats the point
    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    Dear me. Now why would I call that extremist? And how am I 'trying to draw extremism from this statement'? The statement is swimming in it.
    .
    But ghost never said the guys has a point

    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    If Buhkari knew - and from his phrase, above, it is abundantly clear that he did - it was more than a bad position to take. It was the overt support of a monster. Yet Ghost is afraid to look too deeply at his heroes in the MCB, in MPACUK. And these, he claims, are the moderates.
    Please name some "moderates"

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Take care
    zak

  7. #7
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    Ghost accepts prima facie MPACUK's "explanation". Ergo, he doesn't think Buhkari was wrong.

    I've asked Ghost to name moderates before, but they always seem a little more immoderate on inspection.

    Geoff

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    Ghost accepts prima facie MPACUK's "explanation". Ergo, he doesn't think Buhkari was wrong.

    I've asked Ghost to name moderates before, but they always seem a little more immoderate on inspection.

    Geoff
    Good Morning Geoff

    i hope you are well.

    How are they less moderate on closer expection??? what you go back a few years to find out what they did or said in their past? Or what? people can change you know...
    But anyway geoff i was asking you to name a few moderates? As you are bound to know a few being a knowledgable guy on nthese issues.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    take care
    zak

  9. #9
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    Good morning Zak,

    It's an open question as to whether people can change. It is said that you can't get a leopard to change his spots.

    And I rather thought it was up to you to present some moderates, but I'd mention Ayaan Ali Hirsi, from the Netherlands (which, I note, she had to flee to avoid being killed by less moderate residents), Walid Shoebat, Tawfik Hamid (who both perhaps illustrate your point that people change at the same time he indicts radical islam's generality), Dr Ataullah Siddiqui might be one (though I know of him only remotely), Nonie Darwish, Salim Mansur and our own dear Sam and yourself, of course.

    So are you now stipulating to the fact that Buhkari is not a moderate, and therefore that MPACUK springs from a poisoned seed? This is the question that needs answering, Zak. That and why Ghost continues to support him, and them.

    Best,

    Geoff

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    Good morning Zak,

    It's an open question as to whether people can change. It is said that you can't get a leopard to change his spots.

    And I rather thought it was up to you to present some moderates, but I'd mention Ayaan Ali Hirsi, from the Netherlands (which, I note, she had to flee to avoid being killed by less moderate residents), Walid Shoebat, Tawfik Hamid (who both perhaps illustrate your point that people change at the same time he indicts radical islam's generality), Dr Ataullah Siddiqui might be one (though I know of him only remotely), Nonie Darwish, Salim Mansur and our own dear Sam and yourself, of course.

    So are you now stipulating to the fact that Buhkari is not a moderate, and therefore that MPACUK springs from a poisoned seed? This is the question that needs answering, Zak. That and why Ghost continues to support him, and them.

    Best,

    Geoff
    hi geoff,

    thank you for your response.

    i dont actually know much about this guy....

    About moderates changing their spots... what do you think of old yusuf islam/cat stevens. this one has changed quite a bit, used to be a rock star converted to a muslim, became really quite hardcore/ radical extreme - whatever you want to call it (like most converts do initailly) and then chilled out again and is has now record another commercial music album!!!

    I heard an interview with him the other day on radio 2 and the presenter asked him about the time a couple of years ago his plane got diverted cause he was on it -do you remember that? Anyway he was laughing about it calling ti a mistake and an accident etc.. And said that the security people were quite pleased as they had the guy who broke out the song "Peace Train"

    i would be interetsed to hear if and/or what abuse he gets from the less moderate muslims abiout his new album... i have only heard half of one tune, seems quite nice, i may buy it a some point?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~

    take care
    zak

  11. #11
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    Why would commercialism mean Stevens would be less muslim? Is oil profiteering not muslim either? Anyway, Stevens is back to his previous "riff".

    British singer YUSUF ISLAM is struggling to realise his plans for an Islamic community centre, and he blames the September 11 (01) terrorist attacks for turning investors against the scheme.

    http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlf...%20controversy
    British foreign policy played a role in motivating the July 7 London bombings, the singer formerly known as Cat Stevens said Tuesday.
    Yusuf Islam, who had a string of pop hits in the 1960s and '70s, said an al-Qaida video claiming responsibility for the attacks and linking them to Britain's role in the Middle East showed foreign policy "was not the only factor but it was a major contributory."

    http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/l...t/12694768.htm
    Yes; the foreign policy was to blame, not the bombers, or the people that financed them. Sure, sure, Cat. BTW, I limewired some tracks from your new album, and they sucked.

    Not to mention his first screed: "The Qur’an makes it clear; if someone defames the Prophet, then he must die". Leopards, like Cat, don't really change their spots.

    Know what? "Peace Train" sucks too.

    Geoff

  12. #12
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post

    Know what? "Peace Train" sucks too.

    Geoff
    Nomenclature is everything.

    If he had called it "Bomb the infidels" it would have sold like hot cakes.

  13. #13
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    Yeah: gives a whole new meaning to the expression "holy roller".

    Geoff

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    Why would commercialism mean Stevens would be less muslim? Is oil profiteering not muslim either? Anyway, Stevens is back to his previous "riff".





    Yes; the foreign policy was to blame, not the bombers, or the people that financed them. Sure, sure, Cat. BTW, I limewired some tracks from your new album, and they sucked.

    Not to mention his first screed: "The Qur’an makes it clear; if someone defames the Prophet, then he must die". Leopards, like Cat, don't really change their spots.

    Know what? "Peace Train" sucks too.

    Geoff

    Hey geoff

    thank you for this.

    btw the second link doesnot work.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~
    zak

  15. #15
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    Hm. Seems to be an old one. Ah well.

    In any event, we can agree I think that MPACUK is not so innocent and moderate as it pretends, much to Ghost's consternation.

    Geoff

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    Why would commercialism mean Stevens would be less muslim? Is oil profiteering not muslim either? Anyway, Stevens is back to his previous "riff".
    Good morning Geoff

    hows it going

    No commercialism is ok for muslims i appreciate that you know this. all i was saying is i am looking out for any rebutal he gets from the hypocrite muslims thats all




    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    Yes; the foreign policy was to blame, not the bombers, or the people that financed them. Sure, sure, Cat. BTW, I limewired some tracks from your new album, and they sucked.

    Not to mention his first screed: "The Qur’an makes it clear; if someone defames the Prophet, then he must die". Leopards, like Cat, don't really change their spots.

    Know what? "Peace Train" sucks too.

    Geoff
    It seems odd this, what i read of the firrst link is that Yusuf blames the 9-11 and islamohobia for him not getting supprot and funds for his islammic centre, but surely private funds would only be coming from private idividuals anyway and no doubt Muslims as non muslims whatevers going on in the world wont contribute to it...

    Or have i missed the point?

    And with cat changing his spots... Are you saying that he once made shit music (in your opinon of course as a some of his tunes were pretty big in the 60's/70's) and has gone full circle and is backing making shit music?? so therefore he never changed his spots?

    or again have i missed the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    Hm. Seems to be an old one. Ah well.

    In any event, we can agree I think that MPACUK is not so innocent and moderate as it pretends, much to Ghost's consternation.

    Geoff
    To be honest geoff i will have to look MPACUK up as i dont know to much about them...

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    take care
    zak

  17. #17
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    No, by "not changing his spots" I obviously meant "once a hater, always a hater".

    Geoff

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    No, by "not changing his spots" I obviously meant "once a hater, always a hater".

    Geoff
    ghey goeff

    Yusuf iSlam was cat stevens he must ahve changed his spots to do that...

    please can you provide the links saying he is full of hate.

    all i see is the first link where he blames 9-11, whichas i explained does not make sense.. why we he blame 9-11 its not like non muslims would fund his islamic centre anyway.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~
    take acre
    zak

  19. #19
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    "ghey Geoff"? Please, don't make me "pwn" you.

    As for the evidence that he is a hater, Zak: it is said "you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink".

    Particularly not if he is already full of something else.

    Geoff

  20. #20
    Registered Senior Member
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    377
    Hater? This word means nothing. Everyone hates something. Even Israel hates some things. Are they haters?

    False dichotomy, -5 points.

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