Is There Sin in Heaven?

You die, while awaiting judgement you swear to God that you accept JC as your personal savior, the gates swing open and in you go. Pretty simple, right? Its the place to be. No revolving door, just one way.

Is it just me or is there a common conception that heaven and all its occupants live(?) a sinless existence? Except for Lucifer getting the boot, and whether he sinned or not is still debatable, heaven doesn't seem like a place where a lot of sinning goes on.

What happens if your soul or whatever sins in heaven? Is a heavensent soul even capable of sin? Once in heaven can you be sent to Hell? Or is eternal happiness guaranteed once you pass thru the gates? Is there anything that guarantees you stay in heaven for an eternity? Does one leave the sin part of an existence outside the gates? Is sin something you can't take with you once you enter heaven? Are all traces of humanity left behind?

Personally, if there is such a place as heaven then I see no reason why the human souls that get there can't resume their sinning ways. It seems as if our souls, even though they are with us from day one, are suddenly sinfree or incapable of sin once in heaven? Why the sudden change? What hocus pocus takes place to unburden the souls going to heaven?

 

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Well you are coming up with lot of concepts, that are well...hmmmm fantacy! in other words bs. First you got to indentify and show evidence that such an entity such as god is existent, then you got to show evidence that such a place as heaven exists, then and last you got to show evidence that such thing as a soul exists and survives death!

That's why most atheist beleive theist delusional, and full of bs!

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lots of assumption with nothing, nada, nill, to back it up!

 

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How can anyone back up bullshit? I know you can't and if you think I believe in religious bs then you're sadly mistaken. Obviously I didn't aim these questions at atheists. I don't expect atheists to answer questions on the Christian faith.

All I did was give them another chance to show us dumbass atheists some proof.

 

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If you believe in Heaven, then you surely must believe that it's exactly what you want it to be! How could anyone call it heaven if you couldn't do the things you wanted to do??? That would be ....well, hell, right?

Baron Max

 

PsychoticEpisode

Christianity doesn't have a very strong philosophical framework - like for instance you encounter many problems when you attempt to determine what is our relationship with god, what is our relationship with the material world, what is our relationship with other living entities, what is our relationship with this body, what is our relationship with hell and of course as you indicate what is our relationship with heaven (by heaven I assume you mean the eternal abode of god, as opposed to an elevated sphere of material enjoyment)

(that said it tells you how to approach god, but perhaps is a bit sketchy on a few details of why)

Probably not quite so easy as that, but ok, for arguments sake we will accept that we have arrived in heaven

true - sinful life is characteristic of th e material world and conditioned souls

The root cause of sin is to be socialized around ignorance, and ignorance is the bodily concept of life, and th ebodily concept of life is meeting the demands of one's material body (or things related to the body, like my family, my country, my race etc) - in heaven living entities are socialized around the spontaneous loving service of god

Sin doesn't happen in heaven - the moment one develops envy of god is the moment one appears in the material world - in other words one falls down from heaven the moment one conceives that there is no pleasure in heaven. This has implications for persons striving to achieve heaven - if you are not socialized around the spontaneous loving service of god in this life it seem s dubious that you will arrive there in the next, since even if you did you wouldn't like it.

generally the living entity is described as marginal, which means there is the tendency to fall into illusion as well as the tendency to become liberated

Generally your first destination is an elevated material post, after which anything can happen

generally it is understood that we only require the experience of falling from heaven once, just as a child can learn that an iron is too hot to touch by one experience

A good attitude towards the other person (god) characterized by service - the same thing required for maintaining a relationship between any two people

There are no notions of enjoying seperately and independent from god - the number one enjoyments of the material world are sex, possession of opulence and false prestige (Imelda Marcos, the wife of a dictator famous for having an extensive 1000+ collection of designer shoes, said something interesting once - words to the effect that the standard enjoyments of this world are sex but the only reason people are satisfied with such paltry engagements is because they have not tasted power) - these things are absent in heaven - of course it is inconceivable to the conditioned soul how something could be more enjoyable than these things, but there are scriptural statements of liberated personalities from heaven expressing their surprise that people can find pleasure in these things

No - humanity is refined - animalistic propensities are left behind

they can - no problem - the living entity is created with free will - the living entity is not free from the results of their activities however - generally though we are intelligent enough to only require one sojourn to the material world to be convinced where the real benefits lie.

You are right - being qualified to enter heaven is not so cheap - as far as the most common method to arrive in heaven is concerned, it requires not to be socialized around sinful activity (either pious or impious karma) - since this is a difficult ask for the conditioned soul, it is a process that could theoretically happen in a moment, but practically happens over a period of many lifetimes -how many depends on us

BG 7.19: After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.

 

Where exactly does this god envy take place if not in heaven? Why is it not a sin? If you commit god envy then you are saying hell is on Earth?

 

You are right - it is a sin - but I was unsure whether you would catergorize it as such because it is actually a change in values and not just a mere act of disobedience.

As for earth being hell, yes - of course someplaces in the universe ar e more hellish and some places are more opulent - the same rings true even on this planet, there is a whole variety of environments - like for instance how would you compare living in the gaza strip to living in hawaii? But at the same time you can find people who are happy in the gaza strip and people who commit suicide in hawaii. So its all much of a muchness

 

Now I'm really confused.

So sinning does or can take place by heavenbound souls but there are no outright acts of disobedience. As far as you know, envy of god is the only sin a soul can commit? Are there more? Why wouldn't god know if a soul will go bad?

 

Ok this is the technical nitty gritty of it - sin is performed in the medium of karma, karma is a material activity - material activity is intrinsic to the material world (not the spiritual world)

Technically envy of god doesn't even happen in heaven (once again I was just streamlining the argument for the sake of simplicity, but you keep asking more technical questions which makes the process of explanation a bit more difficult because new concepts have to be introduced as a foundation for understanding) ......and the reason is .... in the spiritual world all desires are fulfilled immediately - so the moment one desires to be a competitor of god (ie envy him) is the moment that one finds oneself in the material atmosphere - its kind of like the moment you jump into the water (break the surface of the water) is the moment you get wet - it happens immediately.

 

Firstly there will be no point is swearing anything to God, God will already know ones thoughts. So swearing this or swearing that will be superfluous.

Satan and 1 third of the angels of heaven are taking part in the rebellion against God. So they are sinning. This will lead toi a war in heaven where satan and His angels will be kicked out of heaven. But in eternity sin will cease in the presence of the God of Abraham.

When we enter into eternity God will change us into beings that can exist without sin. So no one who is granted eternity with God will sin again. Because the desire to act against the will of God will not be present in us.

An eternal being will not have the motivation to sin.

Once one has eternity with God then we have been promised that we shall be with God always.

Yes.

The Word of God. If one trusts in the promises of God then that is ones guarantee that one will spend eternity with God.

I don't believe in actual gates. But yes we will be changed as we enter into eternity with God and our sin will be cast off with our flesh bodies.

It's called the Power of God. His will to perfect those who love the truth and desire to be perfected.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

LG.....Ok..Once a soul that exists in heaven commits god envy they do it in the material medium not in heaven. Before the soul commits god envy the material medium in the form of karma presents itself as if the medium knows god envy is about to take place?

It is immediate but because its the spirit world there is no time distinction or a logical sequence of events. Immediate implies some sort of time distinction but because we are mere mortals and we cannot comprehend time as not being part of an existence then we can say that any bad action of the soul never takes place in heaven. Is this the technicality you are alluding to?

 

Adstar says the soul cannot sin in heaven but angels can and will. LG is saying that no sinning takes place in heaven by the soul. He does not mention any of the other occupants and I assume he believes no sins are committed there by them. The original thread asks if sin takes place in heaven by any occupant. It looks so far as if the soul cannot sin in heaven but angels can. LG...do you agree with Adstar's interpretation?

 

Yes - more or less - there a few issues about addressing the nature of time in the spiritual world that could probably be refined a bit .... but anyway, as you admit, it is a difficult subject to approach from the stand point of theory
due to our conditioned inability to escape the influence of time (its kind of like addressing the nature of time in a dream and the nature of time in waking life - how do you conceive of the passage of time in a dream? Compare that to how you conceive of the passage of time in waking life ....

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) - but on the whole, yes, what you say seems ok

 

I think that trying to draw a comparison between christianity and the vedas , particularly in regard to the nature of cosmology, is risky because there is ample opportunity for errors of terminology - like for instance when I read the bible I see mention of some passages that seem to indicate the eternal spiritual world of god and some passages that seem to indicate an elevated material sphere of enjoyment -
Like for instance there are mention of personalities that fit the bill as angels in the vedas (called gandharvas, vidyadharas, Caranas and apsaras) but these are designated as elevated residents of the material sphere (not liberated souls, but definitely more potent and erudite than humans) thus one can find evidence of them sinning in their (material) heavenly kingdoms.

Do you see my point?

 

You cannot accept sin in heaven and Adstar can? It's like the speed of light boundary, you can get close to a sin in heaven but not quite. Technicalities from lack of time to sublevels of heaven that we don't understand prevent sin from happening there.

Adstar is quite blunt...sinning goes on in heaven and by god someone's going to duke it out because of it, which I suppose is good for heaven. It means that currently a soul in heaven isn't likely to find much peace as long as this prophesized war waits in limbo. Heaven doesn't appear too attractive in that scenario.

 

PsychoticEpisode

No - the point is that mention of sinning angels is similar to sinning gandharvas, vidyadharas, etc mentioned in the vedas - the issue is that inthe vedas there are detailed descriptions of a stratified universe while in the bible cosmology is quite simplisticly represented - the result of such blunt comparisons inevitably leads to errors of terminology.

Its not a question of sin not happening in heaven because the sinners can't get their head around the time/space continuum - it is a question of sin not happening in heaven since the very fabric of heaven's existence (namely being composed of th e very substance that enables the instantaneous fulfillment of desire) preventing the successful performance of sinful activities (by instantly relocating the said person to the material sphere which is the "joyful" medium for the exhibition of desires seperate from god)

 

Desires seperate from god are sins in heaven. I'm trying to stick with the original thread here and not go offtrack so I won't question the various floors of the heavenly highrise. Obviously the penthouse is where god sits and if you get there you better not be prepred to think humanlike thoughts but be prepared to think like a god?

The joyful medium for the exhibition of desires seperate from god implies that heaven is merely a place for souls to go and be seen but not heard. I've always said god keeps those souls in a jar by the door but never thought that it might be the case.

If a soul wants to experience joy then it is a sin, is there no joy in desires not seperate from god?

 

PsychoticEpisode

yes

thanks, because I wasn't particularly inspired to explain them

Obvious to you perhaps - what is obvious to a liberated personality could be something else

actually I put the word joyful in qotation marks for a reason that you probably haven't clicked on to just yet

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If they can leave anytime they want its not clear how god keeps them there - if you want to talk about being kept in a jar I think an examination of being embodied in the material universe offers a richer comparison

I don't know where you got the idea that there is no joy in heaven - actually I take that back - its obvious that you got the idea that there is no joy in heaven due to your contentment in the material world - probably explains why you are in the material world and not heaven, eh?

 

By Paulist Protestant Doctrine, Sinners are unconditionally allowed into Heaven. This is the primary reason why I suppose that Paul was the Antichrist.

Christ had taught that Souls would be Judged. Christ mentions a few times that there would be separate ranks, different Mansions in Heaven.

Christ was killed before he could teach everything, and much of what we know comes from the Saints.

The Propensity to Sin is dealt with in Purgatory. Purgatory is not a function of justice, of retribution. Purgatory is intended to make Accepted Souls fit and acceptable for admittance into the Higher Inner Circles of Heaven.

It is said that Purgatory was evolved almost by accident. Heaven had been divided between the Purely Righteous and those who still had the contamination of Sinfulness, and those who were stained were kept out of the Main Holy City. Well, Light poured from the Holy City, and this light burned like a fire on those Souls that were opaque with impurities. It was thought that Souls would flinch from the Pain and escape from it. But these Souls stood they ground and tolerated the Pain until the Sins and the Sinfulness were burned out of them, until they were burned clean.

Of course, these souls were reevaluated and found, surprisingly, pure enough to enter into the Holy City. Purgatory was soon enough formalized, institutionalized and systematized. Souls would start low and would gradually be raised to more and more intense levels of the Purifying Light. A tradeoff was made between Time Applied and the Levels of Pain endured.

 

I would like to add a note of caution. While it is Biblical to state that satan and 1 third of the angels of heaven are in rebellion against God and therefore sinning, It is not known by me when or if this prophesised war in heaven has taken place or not. It is believed by some that this war has happened already and satan and his angels are no on earth. While others believe that this is still a future even that will happen just prior to the second coming of the Messiah Jesus.

I personally believe the latter. I believe it is the case that sin in heaven and on earth will be tolerated until the number of true followers of God (both living and dead) have been amassed over the centuries. Beyond this time the satanic rebellion in heaven will not be tolerated any longer, then after the return of the Messiah it will not be tolerated on earth either.

So it is a case of sin being tolerated for a time (to give time for those who will accept Jesus to do so) and then it shall no longer be tolerated.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days