Aryans: Religion and Genetics

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Prince_James, Oct 28, 2006.

  1. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,214
    Sparked by a great little discussion SamCDKey and I are having...

    To summarize the debate (from the God thread) thus far:

    Myself: The Aryan people are the ancestors of upper-caste Indians, Persians, and Europeans. Their religion's influence remains in Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, and all the old pagan beliefs of the European peoples. Genetically, the the upper-castes of India, the non-Turkic peoples of Iran (Persians), and Europe are all related. The origin of the Aryans was around the Black Sea. Of course, the Indo-European languages descend from these people.

    SamCDKey: The Aryan people did spawn the Indo-European languages, but the Aryan homeland was India and spread out from there. Moreover, the Indian population does not admit of two races, one subjugated, the other the conqueror, and Hinduisms spawned the European pagan beliefs, not a common belief that spawned both.

    Now some direct replies...

    Samcdkey:

    Well first, Samcdkey. What Wikipedia page was this from? I want to follow the footnotes to the study.

    Also, consider these links that show something different, namely, my view:

    http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/11/6/994

    "MtDNA HVR1 genetic distances between caste populations and Africans, Asians, and Europeans are significantly different from zero (p < 0.001) and reveal that, regardless of rank, each caste group is most closely related to Asians and is most dissimilar from Africans (Table 1). The genetic distances from major continental populations (e.g., Europeans) differ among the three caste groups, and the comparison reveals an intriguing pattern. As one moves from lower to upper castes, the distance from Asians becomes progressively larger. The distance between Europeans and lower castes is larger than the distance between Europeans and upper castes, but the distance between Europeans and middle castes is smaller than the upper caste-European distance. These trends are the same whether the Kshatriya and Vysya are included in the upper castes, the middle castes, or excluded from the analysis. This may be owing, in part, to the small sample size (n = 10) of each of these castes. Among the upper castes the genetic distance between Brahmins and Europeans (0.10) is smaller than that between either the Kshatriya and Europeans (0.12) or the Vysya and Europeans (0.16). Assuming that contemporary Europeans reflect West Eurasian affinities, these data indicate that the amount of West Eurasian admixture with Indian populations may have been proportionate to caste rank. "

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA)

    Two groups R1 (R1a and R1b) are found in Europe and R1a - which is strongly associated with Europe - is found in Indian populations. The upper-caste influences in the above include this, I do believe.

    "Recent advances in molecular genetics have opened a promising approach to settle these questions, although the evidence at this stage remains inconclusive. Bamshad et al. studied the DNA of people from the Andhra region of Southern India and compared them to Africans, Europeans and East Asians.4 The mitochondrial DNA (transmitted matrilineally) of all castes was more similar to that of East Asians than of Africans or Europeans. The DNA of the Y-chromosome (transmitted patrilineally) of all castes was however more similar to that of Europeans than of East Asians or Africans. Moreover the higher castes were more similar to Europeans than were the lower castes. The authors conclude that "Indians are of proto-Asian origin with West Eurasian admixture" due to the Aryan invasion. The majority of the Aryan invaders were men who transmitted their European Y-chromosome to their sons born from the native women and placed themselves at the top of the caste hierarchy. But the maternal lineage remains largely "proto-Asian."" - http://www.hvk.org/articles/0506/63.html

    http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1812/18120840.htm

    And for the religious connections...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    I cannot find the wiki page but here is a recent study:

    Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2006 Jan 24;103(4):843-8. Epub 2006 Jan 13.Click here to read


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=16415161
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,214
    Samcdkey:

    You are correct that Chaos and Brahman differ, in that Brahman is a central focus of Hinduism whilst Chaos is only considered the source and origin of all things, yet nonetheless the connection I would say is there. Greek philosophy, on the other hand, demonstrates a much closer conception.

    Consider Stoicism: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/stoicism/ (search for "in accord with this ontology" for the most pertinent information)

    Neo-Platonism: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10742b.htm

    And the semi-similar orthodox conception of God by Plato: http://plato-dialogues.org/email/960211_1.htm

    Then pray tell why do we find aspects of Aryan religion predating the Vedas outside of India, in regards to the Ukraine and other such things?

    See some of the other genetic studies I linked you to, and I shall also search later for some more archaeological reasons to suggest Europe to India, rather than vice versa.

    And in response to your quote from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=16415161 it would seem to be contested by the evidence I presented, which came to much different conclusions.

    Hmmm, me senses a scientific controversy!
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Leo Volont Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,509
    No, no, no.

    The Aryans were the Iron Age Invaders and Barbarians.

    The Civilizations they Invaded already had their Religions and Moral Institutions. When the Aryans invaded, they murdered the Aristocracies that they encountered and took their Places.

    The History that comes down to us gives Aryans the Credit for the Insititions they ururped.

    My Proof?

    Well, is Brahministic Hinduism that the Indian Aryans claim, is that anything like the Persian Zoroastrianism that the Persian Aryans claim, or is that anything like the Druidism of Europe that the Teutonic Aryans claim.

    All of these "Aryan" expressions of Religion are different. What does that tell us?

    It tells us that the Aryans were ignorant Barbarians who adapted to the Religious Institutions that they conquered.

    And it is embarrassing that I need to explain this anybody.

    Before people write Historical Essays, maybe they should spend five minutes first reading some History, or 10 minutes thinking about it first.
     
  8. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,214
    Leo Volont:

    Actually, there is a good deal of similarity in the religions. Furthermore, Zoroastrianism and Hinduism share belief in the same divinities, only they each claim the other religion's Gods are the Devils/Titans of he other.
     
  9. Leo Volont Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,509

    It has been said that Greater Intelligence is discernable in proportion as one can distinguish a greater number of categories.

    To you these religions seem the same.

    But an intelligent person sees different religions entirely.
     
  10. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,214
    Leo Volont:

    They develop along differing lines and are surely separate, but their commonalities are intense.The most notable of these is the Asura/Deva split.

    You'll also note that many of the Aryan Gods are linguistically and characteristically similar.
     
  11. Leo Volont Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,509
    Again, the "Asura/Deva" split may have pre-existed the Aryan Invasions.

    As for language, well, it would not be the first time that a Conquering Barbarian People imposed their Language upon subjugated people. For instance, in India today they refer to their deities as "Gods". Well, that is an English word, isn't it. It does not mean that the English had anything to do with establishing the Hindu Pantheon, simply because now we have literature referring to them using the English word.

    Likewise it means nothing that Old Civilized Religions are using the Language of another Barbarian Race of Conquerors.
     
  12. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,214
  13. Leo Volont Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,509
    Oh, and we might point out that the Aryans, nowhere, made a Civilization of their own. Whereever they conquered, they were assimulated, and as far as we can tell, they insisted upon nothing else except for their language. Oh, and in India they insisted upon racial segration. In the Epic Classic "The Ramayana" the Native Indian People are described literally as being 'Monkeys'. The Brahmin Class, that is the Aryans, were forbidden to mix with the population at all -- no Native 'monkey' was ever to eat at the table of an Aryan Brahmin. Even after several thousand years, one can still see in India today that the Brahmins are 'Aryans'. though they are very ugly on average. This is because in India most marriages are decided upon issues of land and money. When the health, form and comeliness of one's marital partners is never consulted, then it leads in very few generations to a very ugly people. One sees this in many people who focus on property and dowry considerations in their marriage institutions. Barbarian Conquerors, though Evil, at least look well formed and healthy. But then, once established on their conquered lands and set to acquisition no longer by the Sword but by strategical marriages, then each generation becomes more moronic looking. Simply look at Prince Charles compared to Charlemagne.
     
  14. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

    Messages:
    5,595

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidian_people

    see under genetic classifications

    from the same link:

    "Current views
    It has been suggested that the proto-Dravidians of the Indian subcontinent arrived from the Middle East, and may have been related to the Elamites[12], whose language some propose be categorized along with the Dravidian languages as part of a larger Elamo-Dravidian language family. However, many linguists dispute the existence of an Elamo-Dravidian language family.

    The Dravidians were preceded in the subcontinent by an Austro-Asiatic people, and followed by Indo-European-speaking migrants sometime later. The original inhabitants may be identified with the speakers of the Munda languages, which are unrelated to either Indo-Aryan or Dravidian languages. This view is put forward in geneticist Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza's book The History and Geography of Human Genes.
    "
     
  15. Leo Volont Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,509
    You are only referring to an Invaders insistence upon the adoption of the Conquerors Language. But look at the Gods being referred to! They are different!

    Words.

    All of the actual Institutions are different. The Characters of the Gods being nominalized are different.

    What Wikipeda is doing is Resurrecting the Nazi Aryan Supremacy Doctrines.

    Indeed, they are not alone. Even Scholars such as Bruce Campbell are bringing back Aryan Supremacy, in the new guise as some Superiority to be supposed in the most Recently Barbarian of Peoples. The Argument goes that these Barbarians were able to conquer Civilized Peoples and so this makes them superior to Civilized Peoples. However, what smarter Historians such as Toynbee and Durant point out is that while Civilizations are at the peak of their Health and Vitality, they roll over these Barbarian People and attract Assimulation and Emulation, in some degree begining the process of Civilization. It is only when Civilizations weaken, or decline, or become too diluted with Barbarian influences, that they collapse and Barbarian are permitted to murder and burn out all previous history, leaving the illusion that they created only what they had come to steal.

    No. Just because an Apple will eventually rot, it does not mean that maggots are superior to Apples.

    All this Nazi Aryan Supremacy talk is simply the most recent reincarnation of the notion that Nazi Maggots are better than Civilized People.
     
  16. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    Again, it does not tell which came first.
    It seems that the Indus Valley civilisation which predates the Vedas and which was completely wiped out was Vedic in nature. If so, considering that it was subject to invasions, that may explain the aspects of Aryan religion outside of India.


    You can access the entire PNAS paper (it is free) from the link I pasted. If you read the whole paper, you can see that the study was conducted to refute previous studies and was more comprehensive in nature. The results preclude any Aryan invasion theory.
     
  17. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,214
    Leo Volont:

    This is very hard to justify, considering the prevalence of European genetic types correlating to the Aryan migration in Europe, Persia, and in India. Also note that civilization in Europe, Persian, and Indian civilization does not have a pre-Indo-European language foundation.

    And religion, way of life, and probably the horse.

    Do you have the verse off hand?

    I would ask upon what foundation do you claim an entire race of people is evil?

    Actually, we find many similarities.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion

    We even find many similar stories.

    There is no notion of Nazi Aryan Supremacy presented in anthropological consideration of the Aryan people outside of your own imagination here. You are essentially hiding behind an ad hominem assault on it to satisfy your irrational hatred of it.

    Let us not charge people with Nazi sympathies and accusations of ethnocentric supremacy here.
     
  18. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    Messages:
    16,330
    Ramayana? Aryan? Dravidian?

    This thread is certainly a conundrum and while eager to participate I was unsure how to lock in to a thread reply because there are so many issues raised on extremely dubious premises

    there is a link particularly on the nature of the aryan invasion theory on
    http://www.iskcon.com/icj/6_1/6_1klostermaier.html
    (Questioning the Aryan Invasion Theory and Revising Ancient Indian History1 )

    Here is an excerpt


    http://www.iskcon.com/icj/3_1/sdg.html
    (the first Indologists) takes you through an examination of the social agenda of the numerous british and european pioneers of Indology and their determination to deem indian culture as academically contingent on european culture

     
  19. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    I wondered where you were.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  20. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,214
    Lightgigantic:

    I'd have you reference non-Hindu nationalist based research if you might. Not to discredit ISKON on other levels, but they do not have scholarly respect in terms of history or anthropology.
     
  21. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,214
    ALso, I'd like to point out that the notion that Europeans are inherently anti-Eastern in their research at the time is fallacious. Many Europeans during the Enlightenment and well into the 19th century, took Eastern (Indian as well as Oriental) beliefs as extremely valuable and not at all dependent upon Western things. Confucius, for instance, was extremely well respected for a period.
     
  22. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    The site is ISKON but the work is not. This is the author
     
  23. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,214
    Samcdkey:

    I shall check out the article then. Thanks for pointing that out.
     

Share This Page