Australia's most senior Muslim cleric Oz women R uncovered meat & deserve to be raped

Discussion in 'World Events' started by vincent, Oct 26, 2006.

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  1. vincent

    vincent Sir Vincent, knighted by HM Registered Senior Member

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    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6086374.stm


    Last Updated: Thursday, 26 October 2006, 10:13 GMT 11:13 UK


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    Australian cleric in dress furore



    The cleric says his comments were taken out of context

    Australia's most senior Muslim cleric has prompted an uproar by saying that some women are attracting sexual assault by the way they dress.

    Sheikh Taj el-Din al-Hilali said women who did not wear a hijab (head dress) were like "uncovered meat".

    But he has now apologised for any offence caused by his comments, The Australian newspaper reports.

    Leading Muslim women condemned the comments and PM John Howard said the remarks were "appalling".

    "The idea that women are to blame for rapes is preposterous," Mr Howard told reporters.

    In a statement released on Thursday, Sheikh Hilali said he had been quoting another, unnamed, source and did not mean his words to condone rape.

    "I unreservedly apologise to any woman who is offended by my comments. I had only intended to protect women's honour," the statement published in The Australian said.

    SHEIKH TAJ EL-DIN AL-HILALI

    Born in Egypt
    Aged 64
    Imam in Sydney
    Appointed mufti of Australia in 1989


    "Women in our Australian society have the freedom and the right to dress as they choose.

    "Whether a man endorses or not a particular form of dress, any form of harassment of women is unacceptable."

    A spokesman for Sheikh Hilali earlier said the quote had been taken out of context and referred not to sexual assault, but to sexual infidelity.

    The sermon was targeted against men and women who engaged in extra-marital sex and did so through alluring types of clothes, he said.

    Ban threat

    The leader of Australia's largest Islamic organisation has threatened to ban the cleric from teaching at Lakemba Mosque in Western Sydney.

    Tom Zreika, president of the Lebanese Muslim Association, which owns the mosque, said he condemned Sheikh Hilali's words.

    "The board [of the LMA] has unlimited powers in respect of his teachings in the mosque. We can do anything that's required to prevent him from teaching in our mosque. If you haven't got the backing of Australia's largest and most established Islamic organisation then you are out on a limb," he is quoted as saying in The Australian.


    If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred



    Sheikh Hilali



    Controversial Mufti


    But Mr Zreika said the LMA had yet to fully review the contents of the sermon and Sheik Hilali should be offered the benefit of the doubt until any offence had been proved.

    The cleric's latest comments came in a sermon delivered to some 500 worshippers in Sydney last month during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.

    "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside... and the cats come and eat it... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat?" he asked.

    The uncovered meat is the problem, he went on to say.

    "If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred," he added.

    Sheikh Hilali also condemned women who swayed suggestively and wore make-up, implying they attracted sexual assault.

    "Then you get a judge without mercy... and gives you 65 years," he added.

    Sheikh Hilali's critics have previously accused him of praising suicide bombers and claiming the attacks in the United States on 11 September 2001 were "God's work against oppressors".

    High-profile case

    The BBC's Nick Bryant in Sydney says the cleric's latest comments are seen as particularly insensitive because Sydney was the scene six years ago of a series of gang rapes committed by a group of Lebanese Australians, who received long prison sentences.

    Finance Minister Peter Costello called on Muslims to condemn the speech.

    "If you have a significant religious leader like this preaching to a flock in a situation where we've had gang rapes, in a way that seems to make it justifiable, then people that listen to that kind of comment can get the wrong idea," he said.


    *****************


    Australia does seem to have problems when the most senior muslim cleric there thinks Oz women are slabs of meat ready to be raped.


    What do you guys think?

    Do you agree with his views?

    Do you think oz women should wear the viel to fit into muslim society in oz?


    Should we in the west continue to let the minority dictate to the majority, the cuckoo in the nest seems to want to takeover the nest.

    Should australia be a islamic state, thus getting over these problems?
     
    vincent, Oct 26, 2006
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  3. redarmy11

    redarmy11 Registered Senior Member

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    So: did he really mean that uncovered women deserve to be raped, or was he saying that it makes them more likely to be unfaithful. Clearly he's wrong either way, but what makes you assume it was the former, Vincent?
     
    redarmy11, Oct 26, 2006
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  5. vincent

    vincent Sir Vincent, knighted by HM Registered Senior Member

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    "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside... and the cats come and eat it... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat?" he asked."



    I would have thought the above makes it crystal clear what he meant, if you feel he meant something else, you seem to be living on the same planet he is, & its not earth.
     
    vincent, Oct 26, 2006
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  7. redarmy11

    redarmy11 Registered Senior Member

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    I think it's ambiguous. As for what planet I live on - that's just silly.
     
    redarmy11, Oct 26, 2006
    #4
  8. Zakariya04

    Zakariya04 and it was Valued Senior Member

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    Dear Vincent

    Thank you for posting this new thread, i was actually going to post it too, but you seem to have been a bt quicker.

    On a positve note It is encouraging that the leader of the Islamic orgainisation has critised this sheik for his comments and threatened to ban him from preaching in the mosque at Sydney, thats hope he follows through with this and actions the threat.

    These sort of comments give muslims an extremely bad name and perhaps this sheik shoudl go back to Egypt if he wants to talk such crap..

    It is funny how he denied it, but do we take his denials at face value, i dont know..

    #####################

    take care
    zak
     
    Zakariya04, Oct 26, 2006
    #5
  9. vincent

    vincent Sir Vincent, knighted by HM Registered Senior Member

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    " it's ambiguous"

    What is your definition of ambiguous?

    He has apologised for saying it, john howard has called it appalling, the only one in doubt here is you.

    Is it ambiguous to you that the earth is round too?
     
    vincent, Oct 26, 2006
    #6
  10. vincent

    vincent Sir Vincent, knighted by HM Registered Senior Member

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    http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=4482&&edition=2&ttl=20061026140413

    Is cleric's apology enough?



    Added: Thursday, 26 October, 2006, 12:49 GMT 13:49 UK
    Wow! This Mufti is a genius.
    All women have to do is to wear a veil and they will not be raped.
    Can he bring these uncanny powers of intelligence to bear and solve the problems of Iraq etc?
    Nimrod, Exeter Devon
    Recommended by 1 person




    Added: Thursday, 26 October, 2006, 12:27 GMT 13:27 UK
    The way I read what he says means that Muslim men have no self control and can't keep it in their pants. If that's the case then the fault is not with the "uncovered meat" but with the cat that ate it. Is that why muslim women have to cover up? Because Muslim men have no self control??
    Completely Confused
    Recommended by 8 people



    Added: Thursday, 26 October, 2006, 12:15 GMT 13:15 UK
    I couldn't even bring myself to read this article after I got past the first couple of lines.
    How can women attract sexual assualt?
    Only those who commit a sexual assault are responsible for the assault.
    When will people learn this?
    Julie, Chelmsford
    Recommended by 16 people



    Added: Thursday, 26 October, 2006, 12:12 GMT 13:12 UK
    As an Australian father of three daughters I am deeply disturbed by these comments. I am rightly prohibited by law in criticising this mans race or religion yet he is free to judge my daughters simply by the way they dress. I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised at his comment that females should be kept prisoners inside their fathers home. If he wants that, that’s fine, go some country where its acceptable because it isn’t welcome here and neither is he
    john stevenson, cairns
    Recommended by 16 people



    Added: Thursday, 26 October, 2006, 12:09 GMT 13:09 UK
    Is this when we should all take to the streets around the world in protest at his comments like the muslims would do. Or do we behave like grown ups and appreciate everyone is entitled to their opinion.
    madge knox, glasgow
    Recommended by 13 people
    Sign in to recommend comments




    Added: Thursday, 26 October, 2006, 12:07 GMT 13:07 UK
    As an Australian I am appalled to think someone like this is allowed to exist in my country.
    This horrible example of a lead should be imprisoned for inciting rape and violence against woman or at the very least give a swift kick out of the country!
    Kris, London
    Recommended by 11 people



    Added: Thursday, 26 October, 2006, 12:06 GMT 13:06 UK
    As a non-Muslim teacher working in an Islamic School I can confirm that many Muslim men see women as pure meat. I work at the school to help the poor refugee students who come to Australia in a traumatised state. This is what motivates me and nothing else! I have put up with sexist and religious comments from management and peers - but for how long.....Mmmmm not sure? So many Islamic staff at my school take the words of these so-called clerics as gospel. This can only lead to trouble.
    Sue, Perth, Australia
    Recommended by 13 people





    ************


    "Is this when we should all take to the streets around the world in protest at his comments like the muslims would do. Or do we behave like grown ups and appreciate everyone is entitled to their opinion."



    I quite like this one maybe we should attack there embassies worldwide? nahhhhhhhhh lets just be adults & not kids & just disagree with him without murdering people worldwide.
     
    vincent, Oct 26, 2006
    #7
  11. redarmy11

    redarmy11 Registered Senior Member

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    ambiguous, adj.: open to or having several possible meanings or interpretations; equivocal.

    Nowhere in that article does the cleric state that women not covering themselves up are inviting rape. He has stated that he doesn't condone rape. His spokesman has said that the comments weren't about rape. John Howard isn't the cleric and therefore isn't privy to his private thoughts on the matter. Neither are you. Neither am I.

    Therefore the only conclusion we can come to about what was implied and what wasn't is: none.

    Hope this clears things up for you.
     
    redarmy11, Oct 26, 2006
    #8
  12. vincent

    vincent Sir Vincent, knighted by HM Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,883



    "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside... and the cats come and eat it... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat?" he asked.

    The uncovered meat is the problem, he went on to say."




    Oh i see he was talking about cats & uncovered meat not Oz women then?

    I beg your pardon it seems we all owe a apology to him, so then why is he apologising to australians if we misunderstood him on cat talk?

    You do make me laugh red army, you still did not answer my question is it ambigous to you that the earth is round?
     
    vincent, Oct 26, 2006
    #9
  13. Hue_Hare

    Hue_Hare Banned Banned

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    It is not the Mullah's sole fault this is pure Islam, to blame the victim in rape.
     
    Hue_Hare, Oct 26, 2006
    #10
  14. vincent

    vincent Sir Vincent, knighted by HM Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
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    Ive decided your right he was talking about cats, not humans.

    si i've told the wife its alright to sunbathe nude on the beach in phuket tomorrow in thailand, she wont be raped by muslims, however i told my female cat if she wants to join us on the beach she has to wear a burka & veil or else she might be raped by other male cats.

    Red army you make so much sense.
     
    vincent, Oct 26, 2006
    #11
  15. Pheegen

    Pheegen Registered Senior Member

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    hey hey, now his comments were taken out of context.....

    Just like the pope's....

    so what i propose is that all who don't like his comments to start burning down your nearest mosque, shoot a couple of clerics and start street riots as a form of civilised protest....

    ....after all, the precedent for such action has just been set.....
     
    Pheegen, Oct 27, 2006
    #12
  16. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    As a woman in Australia, I have to admit I was disgusted. To say that a woman invited or somehow provoked a rape by the way she may dress is not only an insult to women, but an insult to men as well who find the rape of women to be an act of cowards and bastards.

    He is lucky he lives in a free country where he would not be jailed for making such insane comments. At the present time, he is facing the wrath of the Australian public, Muslim and non-Muslim alike. I think personally we should praise the Muslim women and men who have stepped forward and condemned this man for what he has said. Especially the women. Many Islamic councils in this country have expressed their outrage over his comments and they are demanding he resign.

    There were other comments made in regards to his sermon which alluded to his saying women who dressed scantily were somehow possessed by Satan and who tried to lure men through their dress and actions were to blame. I have yet to hear an exact interpretation of his sermon, but the gist of it has hit the media and the country like a battering ram.

    My hope is that people will take his comments for what they are... demented ramblings from what is obviously an uneducated boor who does not deserve any further media attention and who should be treated like the moron that he is. The Muslims I know and spoke to since this broke out are horrified. Sadly, as one of them has pointed out, it's the witless peons like the Mufti who bring give them all a bad name and I think they seriously wish he'd either leave the country and be stripped of his position.

    The sad fact of the matter is, the Mufti's sermon is not an uncommong line of thought in regards to violence against women.

    Yes he should be condemned and stripped of his position for saying what he's said. But we as a society need to start educating everyone as well. Judges in the past have blamed a woman's dress or behavious as being a cause to their being raped when handing down their rulings in rape cases. It is a shame that the Mufti's words are not original. They've been said and thought of before by many others.

    Women, as victims of rape, should never be asked if they were somehow dressed or provocatively. Women, and also children, have to face such questions in rape or sexual assault trials. I think before we lay the blame on one man for his words, we should also address how society deals with and looks at rape in general. Because women are often accused of having 'brought it on themselves' because they dressed or acted a certain way. And such notions should never ever enter into the equation.

    Yes the Mufti was disgustingly wrong in what he said. But we also need to look at our society in general because it is quite a common thought and one that has in the past and will in the future prevent women from coming forward to report a rape, because the Australian criminal justice system does allow her to be questioned as to how she may have acted or dressed which may somehow be used as a defence or justification for her having been raped. So when the community raises up in outrage as to how the Mufti can say what he said, they should also keep in mind that when a woman comes forward to report a rape, she's also questioned about her own behaviour and whether she may have attracted it. We need to start educating everyone in society, not just the moronic Mufti, that no victim can ever be blamed for being raped. What she/he has done or worn will never somehow be a justification for being raped.
     
    Bells, Oct 27, 2006
    #13
  17. redarmy11

    redarmy11 Registered Senior Member

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    Bells? There is no proof that he was inviting or condoning rape. The general tone of his comments makes them unjustifiable and unwelcome, whatever the context. But there is no proof that he was inviting or condoning rape. I think I read somewhere that you're a lawyer, is this true?
     
    redarmy11, Oct 27, 2006
    #14
  18. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    Many, including the majority in the Muslim community disagree with you Red.

    There is no defence for what he has said. Likening women to slabs of meat and then saying if left uncovered and devoured by cats, the cat is not to blame, but the meat, and then going on to say that had she been in her home and covered, nothing would have occured. You don't see that as saying the woman has somehow contributed to her rape? Ermm ok.

    Yes he may say that to rape is bad and should not be condoned, however when coupled by saying that women were somehow contributing to their rape by dressing a certain way or behaving a certain way, he's blaming the woman instead of laying the blame exactly where it ought to be layed.. on the rapist.

    It's these words that caused the uproar that they have in Australia Red.. be it amongst Muslims and non-Muslims alike. If you wish to not apply it in the context it was made, that is your decision. Personally, I think he should be stripped of his position as Mufti, and made to perform community service helping women who have been victims of sexual assaults and violence in general. He might end up learning something. The same should also apply to any person who makes such comments. He, and others who've made similar comments in the past, should then be made to help educate the public as to why every woman should be respected and that there is never any justification for rape.

    Yes and? What exactly does this have to do with this issue? It is a common practice by participants in the criminal justice system in Australia to ask women who are reporting a rape such questions as "what were you wearing at the time".. "why were you in that particular area".. "were you drinking prior to the attack".. "why did you go to his house".. etc. Rape victims end up feeling as though they are somehow to blame when they are not. The Mufti's comments are not the first to be made in regards to women and they sadly won't be the last.

    For example, in the last few months, there have been a series of sexual assaults on women using walking and bicycle tracks in the surrounding areas where I live. Now while the police were investigating and attempting to identify the attackers, they set out to tell women to take precautions against being attacked. They had advised women to not jog alone down the tracks, they'd handed out whistles to women using these tracks, etc. However what many failed to notice was that the onus was shifted to the woman to prevent an attack on herself. Instead of placing the focus on the attacker and how he should respect women and not rape them, it was up to the women who used these public spaces to shield themselves from the attacker.

    As I've stated before, the Mufti's comments should never be accepted in any society. And that is something that the whole community and our society as a whole needs to learn, because as it stands at present, when a woman comes forward to report a rape, she is asked about what she is wearing, whether she'd been drinking, where she was at the particular time and what she was doing at the time of the attack on her, as though trying to determine her role in her own attack. It is the person who rapes who has the problem and who is the problem. Not the victim.

    The Mufti's comments, while disgusting, has opened a can of worms that has always been quickly shut when a judge in a rape case, as an example, comments on the woman's contribution to her own rape due to her dress or actions. What he has said is not a solely Muslim comment. It is a comment made by many in society when a woman is raped. And such comments made by anyone should never be tolerated or accepted.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2006
    Bells, Oct 27, 2006
    #15
  19. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    That's true. However, he was implying that women who dress "provocatively" are at least partially at fault if they are raped.

    The fact that this comment was made by a Muslim is largely irrelevant to the story. The fact is, you wouldn't have to look very hard to find Christian priests who would share the same view.

    For that matter, I don't think you'd have to look very hard to find some men on this forum who hold the same view.
     
    James R, Oct 27, 2006
    #16
  20. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    You're right. It is a prevalent view in society that a woman who's dressed provocatively or behaves a certain way and is raped has somehow invited the rape or have contributed to their being raped. And this is not just in Australia. I remembered this story on a report from Amnesti International - UK from last year:

    It's not just the Mufti. It is a view held by many.
     
    Bells, Oct 27, 2006
    #17
  21. Pheegen

    Pheegen Registered Senior Member

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    Bells, i too am from that area you are talking about, but by having the police tell you precautions you can take to minimize the risk of assualt while they hunt the perps doesn't in any way put the onus onto the women.

    the cops had no idea who was doing it, they couldn't even agree as to whether it was one person or an organised thing, so what do you want them to say?

    They weren't laying blame, they were giving advice on how to protect yourself while you jogged as they didn't know who was doing it, i think there is a big difference there.
     
    Pheegen, Oct 27, 2006
    #18
  22. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    James R, Oct 27, 2006
    #19
  23. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    You still fail to see the point. Women should be safe to walk, jog, bike where ever they so wish at any time of the day or night. By telling women to take the "precautions" they preached about on a daily basis in the media, it did place the focus on the woman instead of the perpetrator. Instead of saying outright men should not attack, rape or assault women, they tell women to be careful.
     
    Bells, Oct 27, 2006
    #20
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