10-26-06, 05:38 AM #1
Australia's most senior Muslim cleric Oz women R uncovered meat & deserve to be raped
Last Updated: Thursday, 26 October 2006, 10:13 GMT 11:13 UK
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Australian cleric in dress furore
The cleric says his comments were taken out of context
Australia's most senior Muslim cleric has prompted an uproar by saying that some women are attracting sexual assault by the way they dress.
Sheikh Taj el-Din al-Hilali said women who did not wear a hijab (head dress) were like "uncovered meat".
But he has now apologised for any offence caused by his comments, The Australian newspaper reports.
Leading Muslim women condemned the comments and PM John Howard said the remarks were "appalling".
"The idea that women are to blame for rapes is preposterous," Mr Howard told reporters.
In a statement released on Thursday, Sheikh Hilali said he had been quoting another, unnamed, source and did not mean his words to condone rape.
"I unreservedly apologise to any woman who is offended by my comments. I had only intended to protect women's honour," the statement published in The Australian said.
SHEIKH TAJ EL-DIN AL-HILALI
Born in Egypt
Imam in Sydney
Appointed mufti of Australia in 1989
"Women in our Australian society have the freedom and the right to dress as they choose.
"Whether a man endorses or not a particular form of dress, any form of harassment of women is unacceptable."
A spokesman for Sheikh Hilali earlier said the quote had been taken out of context and referred not to sexual assault, but to sexual infidelity.
The sermon was targeted against men and women who engaged in extra-marital sex and did so through alluring types of clothes, he said.
The leader of Australia's largest Islamic organisation has threatened to ban the cleric from teaching at Lakemba Mosque in Western Sydney.
Tom Zreika, president of the Lebanese Muslim Association, which owns the mosque, said he condemned Sheikh Hilali's words.
"The board [of the LMA] has unlimited powers in respect of his teachings in the mosque. We can do anything that's required to prevent him from teaching in our mosque. If you haven't got the backing of Australia's largest and most established Islamic organisation then you are out on a limb," he is quoted as saying in The Australian.
If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred
But Mr Zreika said the LMA had yet to fully review the contents of the sermon and Sheik Hilali should be offered the benefit of the doubt until any offence had been proved.
The cleric's latest comments came in a sermon delivered to some 500 worshippers in Sydney last month during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.
"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside... and the cats come and eat it... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat?" he asked.
The uncovered meat is the problem, he went on to say.
"If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred," he added.
Sheikh Hilali also condemned women who swayed suggestively and wore make-up, implying they attracted sexual assault.
"Then you get a judge without mercy... and gives you 65 years," he added.
Sheikh Hilali's critics have previously accused him of praising suicide bombers and claiming the attacks in the United States on 11 September 2001 were "God's work against oppressors".
The BBC's Nick Bryant in Sydney says the cleric's latest comments are seen as particularly insensitive because Sydney was the scene six years ago of a series of gang rapes committed by a group of Lebanese Australians, who received long prison sentences.
Finance Minister Peter Costello called on Muslims to condemn the speech.
"If you have a significant religious leader like this preaching to a flock in a situation where we've had gang rapes, in a way that seems to make it justifiable, then people that listen to that kind of comment can get the wrong idea," he said.
Australia does seem to have problems when the most senior muslim cleric there thinks Oz women are slabs of meat ready to be raped.
What do you guys think?
Do you agree with his views?
Do you think oz women should wear the viel to fit into muslim society in oz?
Should we in the west continue to let the minority dictate to the majority, the cuckoo in the nest seems to want to takeover the nest.
Should australia be a islamic state, thus getting over these problems?
10-26-06, 05:53 AM #2The cleric's latest comments came in a sermon delivered to some 500 worshippers in Sydney last month during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.
"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside... and the cats come and eat it... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat?" he asked.A spokesman for Sheikh Hilali earlier said the quote had been taken out of context and referred not to sexual assault, but to sexual infidelity.
10-26-06, 06:05 AM #3
"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside... and the cats come and eat it... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat?" he asked."
I would have thought the above makes it crystal clear what he meant, if you feel he meant something else, you seem to be living on the same planet he is, & its not earth.
10-26-06, 06:09 AM #4
I think it's ambiguous. As for what planet I live on - that's just silly.
10-26-06, 07:02 AM #5
Thank you for posting this new thread, i was actually going to post it too, but you seem to have been a bt quicker.
On a positve note It is encouraging that the leader of the Islamic orgainisation has critised this sheik for his comments and threatened to ban him from preaching in the mosque at Sydney, thats hope he follows through with this and actions the threat.
These sort of comments give muslims an extremely bad name and perhaps this sheik shoudl go back to Egypt if he wants to talk such crap..
It is funny how he denied it, but do we take his denials at face value, i dont know..
10-26-06, 08:03 AM #6
10-26-06, 08:13 AM #7
Is cleric's apology enough?
Added: Thursday, 26 October, 2006, 12:49 GMT 13:49 UK
Wow! This Mufti is a genius.
All women have to do is to wear a veil and they will not be raped.
Can he bring these uncanny powers of intelligence to bear and solve the problems of Iraq etc?
Nimrod, Exeter Devon
Recommended by 1 person
Added: Thursday, 26 October, 2006, 12:27 GMT 13:27 UK
The way I read what he says means that Muslim men have no self control and can't keep it in their pants. If that's the case then the fault is not with the "uncovered meat" but with the cat that ate it. Is that why muslim women have to cover up? Because Muslim men have no self control??
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Added: Thursday, 26 October, 2006, 12:15 GMT 13:15 UK
I couldn't even bring myself to read this article after I got past the first couple of lines.
How can women attract sexual assualt?
Only those who commit a sexual assault are responsible for the assault.
When will people learn this?
Recommended by 16 people
Added: Thursday, 26 October, 2006, 12:12 GMT 13:12 UK
As an Australian father of three daughters I am deeply disturbed by these comments. I am rightly prohibited by law in criticising this mans race or religion yet he is free to judge my daughters simply by the way they dress. I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised at his comment that females should be kept prisoners inside their fathers home. If he wants that, that’s fine, go some country where its acceptable because it isn’t welcome here and neither is he
john stevenson, cairns
Recommended by 16 people
Added: Thursday, 26 October, 2006, 12:09 GMT 13:09 UK
Is this when we should all take to the streets around the world in protest at his comments like the muslims would do. Or do we behave like grown ups and appreciate everyone is entitled to their opinion.
madge knox, glasgow
Recommended by 13 people
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Added: Thursday, 26 October, 2006, 12:07 GMT 13:07 UK
As an Australian I am appalled to think someone like this is allowed to exist in my country.
This horrible example of a lead should be imprisoned for inciting rape and violence against woman or at the very least give a swift kick out of the country!
Recommended by 11 people
Added: Thursday, 26 October, 2006, 12:06 GMT 13:06 UK
As a non-Muslim teacher working in an Islamic School I can confirm that many Muslim men see women as pure meat. I work at the school to help the poor refugee students who come to Australia in a traumatised state. This is what motivates me and nothing else! I have put up with sexist and religious comments from management and peers - but for how long.....Mmmmm not sure? So many Islamic staff at my school take the words of these so-called clerics as gospel. This can only lead to trouble.
Sue, Perth, Australia
Recommended by 13 people
"Is this when we should all take to the streets around the world in protest at his comments like the muslims would do. Or do we behave like grown ups and appreciate everyone is entitled to their opinion."
I quite like this one maybe we should attack there embassies worldwide? nahhhhhhhhh lets just be adults & not kids & just disagree with him without murdering people worldwide.
10-26-06, 08:23 AM #8
ambiguous, adj.: open to or having several possible meanings or interpretations; equivocal.
Nowhere in that article does the cleric state that women not covering themselves up are inviting rape. He has stated that he doesn't condone rape. His spokesman has said that the comments weren't about rape. John Howard isn't the cleric and therefore isn't privy to his private thoughts on the matter. Neither are you. Neither am I.
Therefore the only conclusion we can come to about what was implied and what wasn't is: none.
Hope this clears things up for you.
10-26-06, 08:46 AM #9
"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside... and the cats come and eat it... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat?" he asked.
The uncovered meat is the problem, he went on to say."
Oh i see he was talking about cats & uncovered meat not Oz women then?
I beg your pardon it seems we all owe a apology to him, so then why is he apologising to australians if we misunderstood him on cat talk?
You do make me laugh red army, you still did not answer my question is it ambigous to you that the earth is round?
10-26-06, 08:50 AM #10
It is not the Mullah's sole fault this is pure Islam, to blame the victim in rape.
10-26-06, 09:10 AM #11
Ive decided your right he was talking about cats, not humans.
si i've told the wife its alright to sunbathe nude on the beach in phuket tomorrow in thailand, she wont be raped by muslims, however i told my female cat if she wants to join us on the beach she has to wear a burka & veil or else she might be raped by other male cats.
Red army you make so much sense.
10-26-06, 06:17 PM #12
hey hey, now his comments were taken out of context.....
Just like the pope's....
so what i propose is that all who don't like his comments to start burning down your nearest mosque, shoot a couple of clerics and start street riots as a form of civilised protest....
....after all, the precedent for such action has just been set.....
10-26-06, 07:12 PM #13In his sermon, the Sheik alluded to the rapes of four women by a gang of Lebanese men led by Bilal Skaf, suggesting women who "sway suggestively" and wear make-up were like "uncovered meat" and partly to blame for rape.
He is lucky he lives in a free country where he would not be jailed for making such insane comments. At the present time, he is facing the wrath of the Australian public, Muslim and non-Muslim alike. I think personally we should praise the Muslim women and men who have stepped forward and condemned this man for what he has said. Especially the women. Many Islamic councils in this country have expressed their outrage over his comments and they are demanding he resign.
There were other comments made in regards to his sermon which alluded to his saying women who dressed scantily were somehow possessed by Satan and who tried to lure men through their dress and actions were to blame. I have yet to hear an exact interpretation of his sermon, but the gist of it has hit the media and the country like a battering ram.
My hope is that people will take his comments for what they are... demented ramblings from what is obviously an uneducated boor who does not deserve any further media attention and who should be treated like the moron that he is. The Muslims I know and spoke to since this broke out are horrified. Sadly, as one of them has pointed out, it's the witless peons like the Mufti who bring give them all a bad name and I think they seriously wish he'd either leave the country and be stripped of his position.
The sad fact of the matter is, the Mufti's sermon is not an uncommong line of thought in regards to violence against women.
Meanwhile a Victorian study has found that almost two in five people think that men who rape do so because they can't control their urges.
The Violence Against Women Community Attitudes Project also found one in four people believe domestic violence is OK as long as the perpetrator genuinely regrets it afterwards.
The study was undertaken by VicHealth, and its chief executive Dr Rob Moodie says it shows negative attitudes that cause harm to women are still prevalent in the community.
"The vast majority don't condone violence against women but there is still a distressingly high number who will excuse it and who believe some of the myths around it, particularly among men born overseas," said Dr Moodie.
The study also found 23 per cent said yelling abuse at a partner was not serious while 17 per cent said repeated criticism of a partner was also not serious.
Almost one in four Victorians believe that women make up complaints of rape while 15 per cent said women say no to sex when they really mean yes.
Where a matter does proceed to trial, evaluations of trial transcripts consistently show that many complainants are: accused of lying or making false reports; asked questions about behaving in a sexually provocative way; asked about alcohol intake on the day of the offence and asked about the way they were dressed at the time of the offence (NSW Department for Women 1996; Young 1998). Recent research has suggested that similar questions are asked of children alleging intrafamilial sexual abuse (Taylor 2004). A Victorian study that asked barristers, judges and magistrates for their opinions found that almost all of them believed that "rape complainants have a significantly different experience as witnesses than victims of other forms of personal violence" (Heenan and McKelvie 1997: 244).
Yes the Mufti was disgustingly wrong in what he said. But we also need to look at our society in general because it is quite a common thought and one that has in the past and will in the future prevent women from coming forward to report a rape, because the Australian criminal justice system does allow her to be questioned as to how she may have acted or dressed which may somehow be used as a defence or justification for her having been raped. So when the community raises up in outrage as to how the Mufti can say what he said, they should also keep in mind that when a woman comes forward to report a rape, she's also questioned about her own behaviour and whether she may have attracted it. We need to start educating everyone in society, not just the moronic Mufti, that no victim can ever be blamed for being raped. What she/he has done or worn will never somehow be a justification for being raped.
10-26-06, 08:03 PM #14
Bells? There is no proof that he was inviting or condoning rape. The general tone of his comments makes them unjustifiable and unwelcome, whatever the context. But there is no proof that he was inviting or condoning rape. I think I read somewhere that you're a lawyer, is this true?
10-26-06, 09:20 PM #15
"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street... and the cats come and eat it... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat?" he asked.
"The uncovered meat is the problem.
"If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab (head scarf), no problem would have occurred."
Yes he may say that to rape is bad and should not be condoned, however when coupled by saying that women were somehow contributing to their rape by dressing a certain way or behaving a certain way, he's blaming the woman instead of laying the blame exactly where it ought to be layed.. on the rapist.
But the whole disaster, who started it? The Al-Rafihi scholar says in one of his writings, he says: "If I receive a crime of rape - kidnap and violation of honour - I would (word unclear) and teach him a lesson in morals, and I would order the woman to be arrested and jailed for life."
Why Rafihi? He says because if she hadn't left the meat uncovered, the cat wouldn't have snatched it. If you take a kilo of meat, and you don't put it in the fridge, or in the pot, or in the kitchen, but you put it on a plate and placed it outside in the yard, then you have a fight with the neighbour because is cats ate the mean? Then (word unclear)? Right or not?
If one puts uncovered meat out in the street, or on the footpath, or in the garden, or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover and then the cats come and eat it, is it the fault of the cat or the uncovered meat?
The uncovered meat is the problem. If it was covered the cat wouldn't have... it would have circled around it and circled around it, then given up and gone.
If the meat was in the fridge and it (the cat) smelled it, it can bang its head as much as it wants, but its no use.
If she was in her room, in her house, wearing her hijab, being chaste, the disasters wouldn't have happened. The woman possesses the weapon of seduction and temptation. That's why Satan says about the woman: `You are half a (word unclear). You are my messenger to achieve my needs. You are the last weapon I would use to smash the head of the finest men. There are a few men that I use a lot of things with, but they never heed me. But you? Oh you are my best weapon.`
I think I read somewhere that you're a lawyer, is this true?
For example, in the last few months, there have been a series of sexual assaults on women using walking and bicycle tracks in the surrounding areas where I live. Now while the police were investigating and attempting to identify the attackers, they set out to tell women to take precautions against being attacked. They had advised women to not jog alone down the tracks, they'd handed out whistles to women using these tracks, etc. However what many failed to notice was that the onus was shifted to the woman to prevent an attack on herself. Instead of placing the focus on the attacker and how he should respect women and not rape them, it was up to the women who used these public spaces to shield themselves from the attacker.
As I've stated before, the Mufti's comments should never be accepted in any society. And that is something that the whole community and our society as a whole needs to learn, because as it stands at present, when a woman comes forward to report a rape, she is asked about what she is wearing, whether she'd been drinking, where she was at the particular time and what she was doing at the time of the attack on her, as though trying to determine her role in her own attack. It is the person who rapes who has the problem and who is the problem. Not the victim.
The Mufti's comments, while disgusting, has opened a can of worms that has always been quickly shut when a judge in a rape case, as an example, comments on the woman's contribution to her own rape due to her dress or actions. What he has said is not a solely Muslim comment. It is a comment made by many in society when a woman is raped. And such comments made by anyone should never be tolerated or accepted.
Last edited by Bells; 10-26-06 at 09:34 PM.
10-26-06, 09:41 PM #16There is no proof that he was inviting or condoning rape.
The fact that this comment was made by a Muslim is largely irrelevant to the story. The fact is, you wouldn't have to look very hard to find Christian priests who would share the same view.
For that matter, I don't think you'd have to look very hard to find some men on this forum who hold the same view.
10-26-06, 10:12 PM #17
The poll, 'Sexual Assault Research', published today (21 November) as part of Amnesty International's 'Stop Violence Against Women' campaign, shows that similar "blame culture" attitudes exist over clothing, drinking, perceived promiscuity, personal safety and whether a woman has clearly said "no" to the man. For instance, more than a quarter (26%) of those asked said that they thought a women was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was wearing sexy or revealing clothing, and more than one in five (22%) held the same view if a woman had had many sexual partners.
Around one in 12 people (8%) believed that a woman was totally responsible for being raped if she'd had many sexual partners. Similarly, more than a quarter of people (30%) said that a woman was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was drunk, and more than a third (37%) held the same view if the woman had failed to clearly say "no" to the man.
Changes in the law relating to consent mean that an alleged rapist must show that they had taken reasonable steps to ensure that the other person had consented to sex. In this respect the poll exposes a gap between the law and public attitudes. Amnesty International UK Kate Allen said: "This poll shows that a disturbingly large proportion of the public blame women themselves for being raped. "It is shocking that so many people will lay the blame for being raped at the feet of women themselves and the government must launch a new drive to counteract this sexist 'blame culture'."
10-27-06, 12:28 AM #18
Bells, i too am from that area you are talking about, but by having the police tell you precautions you can take to minimize the risk of assualt while they hunt the perps doesn't in any way put the onus onto the women.
the cops had no idea who was doing it, they couldn't even agree as to whether it was one person or an organised thing, so what do you want them to say?
They weren't laying blame, they were giving advice on how to protect yourself while you jogged as they didn't know who was doing it, i think there is a big difference there.
10-27-06, 12:28 AM #19
10-27-06, 01:06 AM #20