musings on the existence of a higher power

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by LightEagle, Sep 29, 2006.

  1. LightEagle Peace in small things Registered Senior Member

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    In the film Equilibrium, Mary O’Brien asks the main character in her cell why he exists. He answers: “I live… I live to safeguard the continuity of this great society, to protect Libria.”

    In reply she states that his argument is circular, as he lives to continue his existence. He in turn asks her why she lives. She answers: “To feel. Because you can’t do it, you can never know it, but it’s as vital as breath. Without it life is nothing but a clock, ticking.”

    In essence her own argument is also circular, as she lives to experience her own existence. There is no real difference if the reason to be alive is a cognitive or emotional decision. Without a higher power, human life and all that exists just doesn’t make sense.

    Someone from an earlier discussion made the point that the stars, to him/her, has no significance as they are only atoms. The question why they are there is therefore pointless. I, however, look up at the stars and see possibilities, potential other worlds. They signify my own relative insignificance and therefore accentuate my place in the cosmos, as an observer and respecter of all that is. The stars therefore, although not on a personal religious level, do have personal meaning and from all the astrologists as well as all people who flip to the stars section in the newspaper each morning to check on their “future” as well as all the astronomers and cosmologists out there, I am not the only one who see meaning in the existence of stars.

    The question can be asked “why does it matter if human life has a point?” The question touches on many aspects of society, including morality, justice, sociology, etc. Without a point to our existence, without an external reference frame to make up for our own insecurities and shortcomings, life is “but a clock, ticking.” All is then meaningless and all hope is taken out of the equation.

    Many scientists (I being one myself) think that the only world view is that of facts from which, through the process of deductive reasoning and logic, theories of how things work can be wrought. The problem with this is on an emotional level. Love, for example. A man loves a woman, yet there is no guarantee the relationship will work. The risk is not justified in purely logical terms, yet we go from relationship to relationship in spite of being hurt each time and making a commitment with yourself that it will not happen again. This transcends the mere need to proliferate genetic material.

    The nature of information is another problem. We know it exists, because of the organised way the universe operates. Planets orbit stars, cells in the body go about their daily functions keeping us alive, yet know one knows where this information comes from. It is conceivable that a singular mathematical point with infinite density can exist and explode. What is perhaps less conceivable is that the singularity also contains all the information upon which the future universe and life is based upon. In essence, the singularity also contained a blueprint of everything which was to come into being. With life in mind, what foresight from an unintelligent, dimensionless mathematical point of infinite density.

    I would therefore argue that evidence for a higher power does indeed exist, but that this evidence is ignored due to personal prejudice and willful denial.
     
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  3. Shaitan lord of hades Registered Senior Member

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    and why do you need more, it's because you prefer to be spoonfed, rather than think for yourself as it's much harder, life is hard, get used to it.
    arguing for the evidence, is shy of producing it.
    and how can you deny or be prejudice to that which does not exist, get serious.
     
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  5. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Lighteagle,

    Why does human life and all that exist have to make sense?

    And if there were a higher power why would that make sense of human life and everything? E.g. if you had an enternal soul, go to a heaven after death, and then, what?

    The existence of a higher power doesn't appear to solve any problem except perhaps postpone the question a little longer.
     
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  7. c7ityi_ Registered Senior Member

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    Because the universe is not nonsensical.
     
  8. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    Your argument doesn't work. It would be more logical to say that the very reason we do it again and again, despite having been hurt many times, is because of our need to "proliferate genetic material". Without such need we'd just give up after the first let down.

    If you "need" to, you would crawl across barbed wire. Let's imagine for the sake of discussion that across 50 feet of barbed wire was freedom. If you did it you'd forever be free or the tyranny and abuse you're suffering. The first crawl hurts, the second crawl also hurts. By now, the illogic of your supposed logic would assume that one must give up if it merely comes down to "need". I say that your 'logic' is royally flawed.

    Many people use the word logic, but few ever use logic itself.

    It's already been mentioned by Cris, but it was such a misnomer that it's worth mentioning twice. What difference to the 'sense' of life does a higher power make - whether it's a god, fairy or invisible flying banana? What does that solve exactly other than absolutely nothing? Do tell, I'm fascinated.
     
  9. Jaster Mereel Hostis Humani Generis Registered Senior Member

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    Bah, how about we just say that everything exists so that we can muse about it in settings such as these? That's good enough for me. Cris and SnakeLord are right; the idea of God doesn't give meaning to life, it only provokes more questions.

    Of course, I don't go around asking why is that? whenever I see a tree. I usually go around asking what is that?. It's an equally unanswerable question, but I tend to find it more fulfilling to ask than the former.

    P.S.- Equilibrium is a kick ass movie
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2006
  10. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    16,330
    This is response is typical of the survey and findings carried out by James R here
    http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=25051&page=8&pp=20


    here is an excerpt you might want to take on board when you make further comments

    I think the results show that this is not true. In general, theists do think about the big questions and come to logical conclusions based on their own thinking, rather than on authority handed down to them. I would encourage atheists on this forum to take note.

    Turning to the atheists themselves, we find another somewhat surprising result - that atheists are perhaps not as supremely rational as they would have us believe. It seems that many of the atheists responses on this forum, at least, are emotional rather than rational. They are not based purely on available evidence, but rather on a reaction against the idea of God. There may be many reasons for this. People can react against a religious upbringing, or point to the perceived ills that religion causes in the world.

    More worrying from the atheists is the number of people who dismiss the possibility of God on emotional grounds, without really considering why they are doing so. They label the religious as less intelligent, or authority driven, or simply mad, with no good justification. This seems to be largely a knee-jerk response against people who take an opposing view. Perhaps these people should consider the real reasons why they so despise the religious.
     
  11. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Cris

    Not sure what you are advocating - I mean even science operates on the principle of order - I think it was Sarte who suggested the only meaningful question in life is whether one should kill oneself or not -lol

    Not all descriptions in scriptures are normative - however whatever value can be had in discussing theisism with an atheist can be found in the normative descriptions - in other words it is an advanced topic of discussion amongst theists
     
  12. Jaster Mereel Hostis Humani Generis Registered Senior Member

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    Amen. I've definitely noticed this, as well. I wouldn't want to derail the discussion, however. Dude, it's not cool to try and change the subject.
     
  13. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    I thought it was suitable since Light eagle was coming in with a logical viewpoint from his own subjective thoughts and then Shaitan came in and tried to dress it all up in authority and emmotion
     
  14. Jaster Mereel Hostis Humani Generis Registered Senior Member

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    Normally I would just ignore the more emotional responses.
     
  15. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    An atheist could go up to the thread starter and say that many theists only believe because of Pascal's wager etc etc and that's why he claims there's only sense in believing in higher powers but I personally fail to see it's value or relevance.

    What are you trying to point out exactly, that humans have emotions and sometimes use those emotions in debates? Come now LG, that's hardly news.

    Sure, Shaitan might be considered as having as many emotions as any other human, but as far as the debate goes Lighteagles post was flawed and Shaitan, (and others), pointed that out.

    If you really want an end to emotion, go argue with Borgs.
     
  16. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    explains why you only have 406 posts I guess

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  17. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Light,

    You've probably missed the underlying implication here, e.g. sense = purpose or meaning.


    And that statement simply exposes you as arrogant and condescending.
     
  18. Jeff 152 Registered Senior Member

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    Atheists base their opinion of God on available evidence (rather lack thereof)

    There is no evidence --> there is no god
     
  19. everneo Re-searcher Registered Senior Member

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    Your denial of god is based on our current level of knowledge. If an yet-to-be-discovered scientific phenomenon happens and is dubbed as miracle of god as there is no scientific explanation at that time, would you accept it as 'evidence' for god?

    Atheism gained momentum after science ruled out the necessity of god rather than lack of evidence for god.
     
  20. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    ever,

    Why would anyone say anything is due to a god without evidence of a god? Absence of a scientific explanation isn't evidence of a god.
     
  21. wsionynw Master Queef Valued Senior Member

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    Of course if there was evidence of a God then more if not all people would believe in this God. The same could be said of Unicorns, orbiting teapots, flying spaghetti monster, etc.
     
  22. everneo Re-searcher Registered Senior Member

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    Cris,

    It seems we are trapped in circular definitions. What disqualifies such a 'miracle' itself as an evidence of a god, in the absence of a scientific explanation to counter with?
     
  23. Shaitan lord of hades Registered Senior Member

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    all science is tested and retested, you cannot test without something to tested.
    thats probably why theres no scientific explanation, theres nothing to explain, it's that simple.
     

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