Are compulsive breeders mentally ill?

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by mountainhare, Sep 26, 2006.

  1. mountainhare Banned Banned

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  3. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    As a man with no children I can certainly relate to this screed and even remember delivering it myself many times in the past. Yet over the decades I've come to appreciate at least the babbling and shrieking of happy children. There's something so optimistic about it, it make me wonder where and why I lost my way.

    As to the issue that the crying of babies works against the survival of the community by attracting predators, driving away game, or giving away one's position to enemy tribes... I have read reports that in tribes where this is actually an issue babies are somehow able to not cry. Perhaps it's their primitive ability to sense the mood of the adults around them, or maybe in those tribes natural selection has culled those genes from the herd, I don't know. But what I do know is that it has not been an issue for the vast majority of human tribes for thousands of years. Predators and prey with their superior senses can hear our quietest movements and smell our pheromones over vast distances, and if the enemy army is close enough to hear your baby cry you've already lost the war.

    But babies don't just keep quiet because they have no reason to. They make noise because they have a reason to. As Homo sapiens's unique verbal communication came to dominate our relationships, our other pack-social ways of communicating atrophied. We can't smell how each other feels, and even with our myriad facial muscles that are useful for nothing except expressions, we still can't tell as much about each other by looking as two dogs or two gorillas. Our babies, who can't talk, would be at a serious disadvantage if they couldn't at least yell to get our attention.

    Notice how strong a newborn human's voice is, especially considering that the rest of our central nervous system is woefully underdeveloped compared to all other placental mammals in order to fit our gargantuan heads through the birth canal. No puppy, kitten, tiger cub, baby gorilla, or probably even elephant calf can let out a scream as loud as a human's first breath. They don't need to.

    We do. It's a survival trait.
     
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  5. francois Schwat? Registered Senior Member

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    It's really scary how loud they are. They're like Howler monkeys. I liked the article. Reminded me very much of something Maddox would write. I like his idea about a different airliner class for people boarding with babies. Also gotta love the Baby Suit. lol. "Made with washable fabric."
     
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  7. mountainhare Banned Banned

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    What really annoys me is when dumbass parents bring their little bundles of shi... err, 'joy', to restaurants. You're trying to eat in peace (most likely, you're a married couple who have left your own child with the babysitter, to get the hell away from the noise), and then.... "WWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAA!!! GGGGGAHHHHHHHHH!!!"

    And of course, no one has the guts to tell the parents to shut their kid up. Although I remember one case on 'Current Affairs' (*wince*) where a couple were bitching because the manager of a restaurant had asked them to leave, after their baby squealed like a banshee.

    Whenever a mother (or father) murders their infants, society as a whole recoils and goes 'HOW COULD THEY DO THAT TO THEIR OWN CHILD?!'. On the other hand, I can understand it (although I definitely don't support it... if you didn't want a baby in the first place, you shouldn't have had sex).

    I agree with the idea that the author proposes, regarding the 'family section' on aeroplanes. It's bad enough having to spend 8+ hours on a plane, without putting up with the smells and sounds of a flabby bag of flesh.
     
  8. Zephyr Humans are ONE Registered Senior Member

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    That is impressive...

    Or used birth control.

    The problem is, aeroplanes only exist because they were designed by flabby bags of flesh to fly other flabby bags of flesh around. So flabby bags of flesh are likely to be involved one way or another.

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  9. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    Great. Let's also get rid of fat people on planes. And old people. And smelly people. And people who talk too much. And Muslims, definitely we should get rid of Muslims. All these undesirables should be put in seperate sections. And why should this great idea be limited only to planes? Why not buses? And Lunch counters? And water fountains?
     
  10. mountainhare Banned Banned

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    madan:
    I'm not saying that we 'get rid' of certain groups. I'm saying that they should be segregated from people who don't want to tolerate the foul smells and noises made by babies. Parents might not mind the smell of shit and banshee like cries generated by their own spawn, but other people sure do.

    I don't see the relevance of your other comments. We're not discussing water fountains or short bus rides, which are entirely different scenarios. We're talking about 8+ hour, exhausting flights, where people are often crammed together like worms in a can (especially in economy). Some people suffer travel sickness, or jet lag. They don't need excessive noise, or sickening smells.
     
  11. valich Registered Senior Member

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    I agree with your comments to an extent. Yet there are something in life that we have to put up with as they are a fact of nature that we can't get around. God! How I would hate to be on a 15 hour flight to Hong Kong with a baby next to me crying non-stop. I think if this happened, I would first demand that I be reseated so that I could sleep; then, if denied that request, I would demand that the plane land at the closest airport so that I could catch the next available flight; then, probably demand that I talk to the pilot if no resolution were reached; and mostly have to stand half-asleep at the far end of the plane. I think this would be a realistic scenario.

    Fortunately, most mothers are aware that their childrens's crying is a nuisance to others and normally do do everything that they can to quiet them down. Still, there are some ass H mothers out there who have the "I don't give a f attitude." Then what do you do to stay legal within the bounds of society? Carry your own parachute I guess? Good scenario!
     
  12. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    jesus christ. What a bunch of selfish pricks here.
     
  13. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

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    I have avoided taking my kids abroad for these very reasons BUT also for the following reasons:

    I do not want to have to hold my child on my lap, still for 8 hrs, something which in itself is impossible without tantrums of sorts and I suspect the baby would cry too.

    Planes do not provide seperate seats for small children of a certain age and under, so parents and child are forced into being VERY uncomfortable for LONG hrs.

    Parents I am sure would happily pay extra for more room to ensure they and child are comfortable enbough to both be able to rest, relax and be comfortable.

    The whole buisness of travelling with kids is extremely stressful for parents so any stress you guys imagine you endure is ZERO compared to what the parent and child (being restrained for 8hrs +) is going through.

    You were babies once, so get over it and learn to be tolerant.
     
  14. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

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    Fraggle re primitive tribes and no crying babies.

    In cultures where babies are bound and held 24/7 for the first 6 months of their lives (and I mean HELD 24/7, they are NEVER put down) they tend not to cry. They have no need.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/parents/story/0,,1501617,00.html

    "There is a wealth of anecdotal and research evidence which demonstrates a sharp divide between babies raised in traditional communities and in post-industrial societies. The anecdotal evidence is unevaluated but consistent: travellers to South America, Asia and Africa report that babies - who are carried everywhere - are rarely heard to cry. Friends who have travelled off the beaten track in Japan, India, South Africa and Peru offer the same story. Equally, white babies are famous around the globe for their ability to burst into tears. According to the eminent psychoanalyst Erik H Erikson, women of the Sioux tribe in Dakota would complain at the American hospital practice of separating mother and baby at birth, because, they said, it taught the usually passive Sioux infant to "cry like a white baby".

    Anthropologists validate such stories. A long-term Harvard University study of Gusii families in Kenya suggested that here were some of the quietest babies on the planet. Gusii babies cried less than half as much as American babies. When Gusii women were shown a video of an American mother and grandmother changing the nappy of a screaming baby, they became agitated. They were amazed that neither woman was able to soothe the baby's tears. Elsewhere, a study of Mexican babies found no intensive crying whatsoever, while researchers who went to Korea to study colic, evening crying and the two-month-crying peak could find no evidence for any of these phenomena. "
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2006
  15. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

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    I have taken my kids to restaurants, to do 'lunch' etc frequently since they were born, for the very purpose of socialising them and teaching them the necc etiquette for public dining. I rarely had any problem with them.

    Once I had horrendous problems, largely due to the fact the restaurant after 40mins still had not delivered our food and a hungry toddler will not wait patiently. Neither by the way do hungry adults incase you had not noticed.
    In the end we left without eating. If a restaurant is going to cater for young kids they need to make sure they are very child friendly.

    Parents and children are not outcasts we should not be hidden away.

    I have been to family restaurants where there were no baby change facilities and I had to change my babies nappy in the hall on a dirty floor. That is not my fault nor MY choice. These resaurants were generally booked by family as I always made sure we went to family friendly places that were properly equipped.

    NOTE: the more expensive the fayre the poorer the family facilities were.

    Could it be the privilaged prefer little 'johnny' out of sight and out of mind and just out of their way altogether? Well thank goodness my kids aren't that privaleged. They are loved and part of the family. Where I go they go, unless after their bedtime.
     
  16. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    you can book a seat for your baby. Then you can used a special seat. Some airlines do have a special cot that can be used in certain seating arrangements (next to the wall). Air France for example.

    The real problem is of course when the seatbelt sign is switched on. No child can sit still for very long. On the flight back from the USA the 4 year old actually cried more than the baby. The baby only cried for 15 minutes when the seatbelt sign was turned on.

    more later.
     
  17. valich Registered Senior Member

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    I think the "no-child, no.... (as stated above)" is a great idea for airlines! I'm 100% for it!

    "To those people who want a child, please, please consider other options. Does the world really need more humans? No. We have six billion people now, why add to the horror? Consider adopting a cat or a dog instead. If someone has already impregnated you, consider abortion before the Bush administration makes it illegal. Now you might argue that your kid might grow up as an Einstein or a famous pornstar or something and you wouldn't want to deny the world of the service of these great people, but in reality your kid will more likely grow up as another Hitler or George Bush. Think about that."

    Most Africans in tribal communities have as many babies as they can in hopes that some will survive, since so many die from disease or famine. But then it also depends on how many cows and goats they have to trade for the number of wives.
     
  18. Bells Staff Member

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    Pinch me!

    I actually agree with you here... lol.. I have avoided plane trips for the very reasons stated by you and others in this thread. However when we did have to travel interstate a couple of months ago for a family emergency, our son did fine. Only grumbled a bit when the plane took off and landed, but we basically fed him so that the sucking motion would help his ears adjust. We did however book a seat for him so that he was not stuck in our laps. He only sat on myself or my husband when the plane took off or was coming in to land. Long car trips are another matter and usually after 1.5 hours he will start to cry as he wants out. Restaurants he's very good at, so long as he can sit on his own and luckily most places nowdays have a high chair. As for having to wait for food with a hungry toddler or baby, I always make sure to bring his own (the rare times we use bought baby food as its easy to take on the road) in case the service in the restaurant is a bit slow, but I tend to do that whenever we go out anyway so it's not so much of a problem.

    Children get bored easily when on planes, trains, buses, restaurants, etc. I always bring several of his favourite toys and ones that are quite interactive to try to avoid the boredom. And most children like to look at and smile at strangers. So if you're on a plane and a toddler peers at you over the back of his seat and smiles at you, try smiling back instead of ignoring them.. it'll probably make them feel less bored and they won't just sit there staring at you until they do get a reaction from you, also ensuring that your trip is a tad more pleasant and not spent doing the 'don't make eye contact' thing..

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    And most responsible parents do feel quite mortified when their kids misbehave or start screaming when on planes or out in public, because we do know that it does affect other people. If a baby is screaming in a plane, ask the attendant if you can be moved possibly. And for those of you who are complaining about smelly nappies, please be aware that when most of you go to the toilet on a plane, the smell does linger and follow you once you've finished and walked out and start back down the aisle. So the saying of 'pot.. kettle.. black' does come to mind in this instance. If the airline does not offer a disposal facility for dirty nappies, maybe you should complain to them instead of whining about the parents or the children themselves.

    As TOR nicely pointed out, you were all babies at one time in your life. Maybe you should ask your parents what kind of little turds you were when travelling or in public places before you start whining. And some of you may one day decide to breed and end up with a real cryer. So before you start bitching about others, think about what you were like as a child and what you could end up with if you did decide to create a spawn.

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  19. mountainhare Banned Banned

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    Bells:
    Ahh, so there is no difference?

    Fair enough. The next time I need to shit on a plane, I'll just do it in my pants. It will save having to push my way through all those people.
     
  20. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    Shit nappies go in a plastic bag. Less odour than adult taking a dump.

    end of story.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2006
  21. Bells Staff Member

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    Heh!

    Ah but when a baby does it, it is understood to be normal and natural. Plus they are usually changed promptly and the nappy placed in a nappy bag that is designed to mask any smell, unless the parents are ferals. However if you decide to do the same as a baby, then you'd be classified as a loon and most probably promptly escorted off the plane and banned from the airline.

    My point was that people whining about babies in planes smelling and being loud seem to forget that when they go to the toilet on the plane, whatever they have done in there can leave a lingering smell that also affects other passengers. Something which they fail to realise or don't care about. Therefore before bitching about parents with small children on a plane, they should keep in mind the state of their own bowels when they go to the bathroom. They should also keep in mind how their behaviour might affect other passengers. I've sat next to people who have no qualms in being loud and rude, affecting all around them. So in short, while children can be a bit of a pain on a plane, adults can be just as bad if not worse.
     

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