Material v. Spiritual Pleasures

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Prince_James, Sep 2, 2006.

  1. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    LightGigantic and I have been debating whether it can be said that the material or spiritual pleasures are superior.

    I am of the opinion that the material world is best, because one is certain of its existence, all the great pleasures known to man are to be found in it - sex, love, the arts, sense pleasures, conquest, competition, et cetera, et cetera - and the alternative is either direct annihilation, or annihilation in all but name.

    LightGigantic begs to differ!

    So to start off, LightGigantic, what is the exact nature of the pleasures we might expect in the hereafter if we pursue them? Will one bestill able to experience the material ones I mentioned? Or will they have to be replaced? You say that we will become eternal servants to a God that wants our service to be supremely happy. What does this entail? And if ew chose to disregard such things, would we be punishd (For as slaves this would seem so). INdeed, is not even forced joy a species of bondage? And is it not freedom which is truly necessary for joy?
     
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  3. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    One can give up one certain thing when they experience another certain thing - just like one may perceive cold pizza as palatable, but a person who perceives both cold pizza and fresh hot pizza says hot pizza is more palatable


    lol - along with the great sufferings as well - in otherwords we have not progressed an inch in seperating the sufferings of life from the pleasures of life, hence the material existence is inferior due to its dualistic nature

    Does this also include the common consequences such as spouse arguments, pooey nappies etc?


    ,
    These all find their eternal counterparts in spiritual existence - in terms of western philosophy perhaps you could say these things have a superior counterpart in platonic existence

    I have never mentioned annhilation



    Practically the same as the ones here (in the platonic sense) except that they are performed on the platform of eternity knowledge and bliss


    If by material you mean enjoyed through the self, yes - if by material you mean while being socialised around the ignorance of god's existence and one's constitutional relationship with him, no



    They are superceeded

    ?

    For instance sometimes you see pathetic xtian propaganda (not to say that all xtians act like this) of heaven - its like everyone is sitting on their butt while jesus is going around topping up everyone's glass with lemonade - this is not the picture of heaven - this is how we picture the perfection of material life


    Punishment is to enter the material world - which you seem to be enjoying at the moment -lol - of course if you had to suddenly go to hell to be trained up for living in a pigs body you may not like it - but once you got the pigs body you would think eating excrement is great

    Joy is not forced - on the contrary we naturally gravitate to where we think it can be located - and by examining our locations we can determine whether our intelligence is high grade or low grade


    Yep thats why you've got it - you are free to act in what ever way you want - but you are not free from the results of your activities
    Just like a prisioner ends up in jail because he violated his use of freedom - which doesn't mean that his freedom was taken away completely, merely that the scopr for his freedom is greatly reduced in prision and that he arrived tere as a consequence of violating freedom - thhat is the material world - but because it is also heavily saturate with illusion, despite operating out of an inferior standard of freedom we think there is nothing wrong with it
     
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  5. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

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    The material world is all there is, technically.

    But the spiritual world is all that could be, literally.

    How you deal with the material world may determine how you deal in the spiritual.

    But its all argueable.

    -MT
     
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  7. stefan un amigo todos Registered Senior Member

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    is it not much better to have 70 + years of this duelist material world than an eternity as a smiling ameoba/slave.
    which do you think would be best, theres no contest is there.

    however I'm safe for the stupidity, I have no believe in any god/gods devils/demons afterlife/spiritual realm.
    if it makes the religious harmless then let them believe it, unfortunately it does the opposite.
     
  8. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

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    It is very wrong indeed to live this life with any consideration for the next or the 'herafter' VERY WRONG and I will tell you why.

    This life is not to be spent in wasteful endeavour.

    Any faith you have with reagrd to the 'hereafter' MUST not influence your actions in this life, else they become invalid.

    Doing good for personal reward ONLY is not doing good. Personal reward should be an incidental bonus not the aim.

    NOT being bad for fear of punishment demonstrates 'fear' of punishment, social isolation, deprivation' it does not demonstrate you are not bad.

    Not being bad because you cannot physcially/spirtually entertain the idea is not being bad.

    IF God cares about our conduct, then he values that which is generated from the heart and not just demonstrative of obedience.

    An obedient servant is not the same a loyal one.
     
  9. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    lightgigantic:

    "One can give up one certain thing when they experience another certain thing - just like one may perceive cold pizza as palatable, but a person who perceives both cold pizza and fresh hot pizza says hot pizza is more palatable"

    But however are we going to prove the hot pizza if it is so elusive? Could only be known to someone that has been to the pizza parlour, from which no one has ever returned?

    "lol - along with the great sufferings as well - in otherwords we have not progressed an inch in seperating the sufferings of life from the pleasures of life, hence the material existence is inferior due to its dualistic nature"

    It is often the sufferings that make the pleasures worth while. Challenge, for instance, entails that one must overcome something, which further implies some degree of suffering.

    "Does this also include the common consequences such as spouse arguments, pooey nappies etc?"

    Children are or usually are a joy. That they have bad parts to them also does not mean that this is any less so.

    "These all find their eternal counterparts in spiritual existence - in terms of western philosophy perhaps you could say these things have a superior counterpart in platonic existence"

    In what way could conquest or competition exist in the spirit realm? Both entail suffering on the part of the loser, as well as suffering (in terms of over coming and striving) on the part of all.

    Similarly, where would there be art, if everything was beautiful and wonderful? And if even one did not have to learn the skill in creating art? Everyone would have perfect art, which in turn, would destroy the very reason to make something unique and well admired.

    "If by material you mean enjoyed through the self, yes - if by material you mean while being socialised around the ignorance of god's existence and one's constitutional relationship with him, no "

    I meant enjoyed by the self, yes.

    "They are superceeded"

    By what precisely?

    "For instance sometimes you see pathetic xtian propaganda (not to say that all xtians act like this) of heaven - its like everyone is sitting on their butt while jesus is going around topping up everyone's glass with lemonade - this is not the picture of heaven - this is how we picture the perfection of material life"

    So what does it entail, then?

    "Punishment is to enter the material world - which you seem to be enjoying at the moment -lol - of course if you had to suddenly go to hell to be trained up for living in a pigs body you may not like it - but once you got the pigs body you would think eating excrement is great"

    Considering one would have no knowledge of anything else, being a denizen of the Hell or animal realms would seem to be fine. Of course, not as good as humans, though.

    But then again, we'd have to prove Hell even exists. It seems like quite the faerie tale!

    "Joy is not forced - on the contrary we naturally gravitate to where we think it can be located - and by examining our locations we can determine whether our intelligence is high grade or low grade"

    Yet if we are a servant of God who wans us to be happy and joyful, do we not have to acquisce to him if we reach this heavenly point?

    "Yep thats why you've got it - you are free to act in what ever way you want - but you are not free from the results of your activities
    Just like a prisioner ends up in jail because he violated his use of freedom - which doesn't mean that his freedom was taken away completely, merely that the scopr for his freedom is greatly reduced in prision and that he arrived tere as a consequence of violating freedom - thhat is the material world - but because it is also heavily saturate with illusion, despite operating out of an inferior standard of freedom we think there is nothing wrong with it "

    So we're perfectly free in this spiritual existence? Yet through violation we entered the material world? So this could happen again?
     
  10. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    Mosheh Thezion:

    "How you deal with the material world may determine how you deal in the spiritual."

    How do you figure?

    Perplexity:

    "Why, if one may wonder, does this fail to consider where the greatest pain is to be found?"

    If the rules are the game are pleasure and pain v. nothingness, then the pain is irrelevant, as it is simply the price to pay for anything at all.

    Theory of Relativity:

    "Doing good for personal reward ONLY is not doing good. Personal reward should be an incidental bonus not the aim.

    NOT being bad for fear of punishment demonstrates 'fear' of punishment, social isolation, deprivation' it does not demonstrate you are not bad."

    Why should one not do good things purely out of a personal reward? If they are not personally rewarding, in what way are they good? Do not we call that bad, in fact?

    Similarly, is there any difference in the man that is fearful of punishment and the one that does not want to do bad?
     
  11. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

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    lol
     
  12. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

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    I notice these differences in people and yes it is important but those of us that lack 'natural goodness' can endeavour to improve, if that improvement is worth while.

    Behaving good is good of course, but it's not how we judge natural goodness. I know of a person who cannot hear or say a bad word of any person. This is a natural state to her, it is obvious. I have never met another like that. I don't even know how it is possible.

    I do not aspire to be 'all good', because I have found that selflessness can be detrimental to oneself . Selfishness is a requirement for many pleasures and indeed let's replace the word selfish with 'self love' love yourself first ...but that goes against how we were conditioned does it not?

    It is a waste of a life to devote it all to other people. Unless after death we do indeed return for a second helping or reap some reward.
     
  13. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

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    2,936
    I think people who get their kicks from the 'spiritual world' just aren't keeping busy enough in the real world or finding enough things to excite them that way. I am utterly convinced that the material world is the only thing I will ever see, and the only life I will ever live, I am sure as hell not going to waste it in wishful delusional bollocks.

    I am more than happy being a mortal. I could not think of anything worse than living forever, even if it's in bliss, I wouldn't want to risk boredom in an eternal life. Certainly I would like to tweak things about my current existence that are beyond my control and most/all dreams go unfulfilled, but this doesn't sway me into kidding myself with spiritual notions.
     
  14. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Prince james

    No - you can get it even in this life - its just that the cold pizza is heaps easier to come by

    So when you want to increase your pleasure you go looking for suffering?
    Can you imagine anything which you conceive of as pleasurable in this world which does not grant suffering?


    At the very least there are a few hidden catches in sex life which could even perhaps warrant a manditory gov't warning


    Competition exists, but unlike the material world they don't cut down the opponents to make oneself superior

    You don't understand the fundamental difference between the spiritual and material world - in the material world everyone thinks thatthey are beautiful (or at least things related to them are beautiful - eg my country is the best because I am the best etc) - in the spiritual world everyone thinks god is the most beautiful, and service to god is the most beautiful, so beauty is entertained on these notions (and god in turn thinks his devotees are beautiful) so there are enough variations to ensure reciprocation etc



    Fresh pizza

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    "For instance sometimes you see pathetic xtian propaganda (not to say that all xtians act like this) of heaven - its like everyone is sitting on their butt while jesus is going around topping up everyone's glass with lemonade - this is not the picture of heaven - this is how we picture the perfection of material life"

    The activity of the spiritual world is serving god, not being served by god (or served by god's pure representative, as in the case with jesus and the lemonade)

    "Punishment is to enter the material world - which you seem to be enjoying at the moment -lol - of course if you had to suddenly go to hell to be trained up for living in a pigs body you may not like it - but once you got the pigs body you would think eating excrement is great"

    Thats right - that explains why you, and even the worm in stool, is currently satisfied with the respective current level of "happiness" in the material world

    On the contrary you can experience hell even in this world - like your legs could get chopped off or something

    No - we gravitate towards the service of god when we perceive there is pleasure to be obtained there - this is high grade intelligence


    Not through violation but through our choice - once you enter the material world perhaps its not so straight forward since the element of illusion makes it difficult to make the decision to go back to t he spiritual world - and yes you can come back to the material world again - if you want -lol
     
  15. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    LightGigantic:

    "No - you can get it even in this life - its just that the cold pizza is heaps easier to come by"

    So you are claiming that one can know, with one hundred percent certainty, what happens after death in this life?

    You can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, where we go when we die?

    If so, I would ask you to present here your proof!

    "So when you want to increase your pleasure you go looking for suffering?
    Can you imagine anything which you conceive of as pleasurable in this world which does not grant suffering?"

    As many joys require some suffering, yes, indeed I do seek suffering. In fact, a joy I have recently taken is punching a brick wall bare-fisted in order to deaden my hands to such pain. Though it hurts a great deal sometimes, I find the process enjoyable, and I marvel at how much greater resistance I have now, even after only a few weeks of doing such.

    But no, I cannot think of anything in life which is pleasurable and does not have some aspect of suffering to it.

    "At the very least there are a few hidden catches in sex life which could even perhaps warrant a manditory gov't warning"

    That could make either a very popular, or very unpopular, tattoo.

    "Competition exists, but unlike the material world they don't cut down the opponents to make oneself superior"

    Yet surely there must be a loser? And thus that person suffers?

    "You don't understand the fundamental difference between the spiritual and material world - in the material world everyone thinks thatthey are beautiful (or at least things related to them are beautiful - eg my country is the best because I am the best etc) - in the spiritual world everyone thinks god is the most beautiful, and service to god is the most beautiful, so beauty is entertained on these notions (and god in turn thinks his devotees are beautiful) so there are enough variations to ensure reciprocation etc"

    Would not this then mean there'd be no art? For if beauty is to be found only in God, what is the point of art, yes?

    "Fresh pizza"

    What is an example of all the pleasures above in the spirit realm?

    "The activity of the spiritual world is serving god, not being served by god (or served by god's pure representative, as in the case with jesus and the lemonade)"

    So we are expected to find serving God enjoyable? This sounds like Hell! To be eternally trapped serving a being far greater than oneself? In what way, whatsoever, is this to be construed as pleasurable? It is eternal debasement!

    "Thats right - that explains why you, and even the worm in stool, is currently satisfied with the respective current level of "happiness" in the material world "

    Indeed. Ignorance is bliss, they say. So no position in this material world shall ever be that horrible, depending on one's form.

    "On the contrary you can experience hell even in this world - like your legs could get chopped off or something"

    That's pain, but not Hell. Is it not?

    "No - we gravitate towards the service of god when we perceive there is pleasure to be obtained there - this is high grade intelligence"

    Yet God mandates all things at this point, no?

    "Not through violation but through our choice - once you enter the material world perhaps its not so straight forward since the element of illusion makes it difficult to make the decision to go back to t he spiritual world - and yes you can come back to the material world again - if you want -lol "

    So basically, if one wants to leave God, one can? And that the fact that we are here, shows that we once denied an eternity with God?

    perplexity:

    "Price to pay?

    That is like trying to tell an investor that the profit matters but a loss would not."

    When the only other chance is nothing, or a situation far worse than any suffering one could have (if we assume the opposition to truly be that bad), then what true loss is being sustained?

    "First be fearful of who you punish."

    In their vengeance?

    Theoryofrelativity:

    "I notice these differences in people and yes it is important but those of us that lack 'natural goodness' can endeavour to improve, if that improvement is worth while."

    Well the question really is: Is there anything utterly horrible about bad acts, in the absence of punishment? I mean, if no bad came from bad acts to oneself, at all, whatsoever, not even a personal debasement, or some other inferiority, would it really be bad?

    "Behaving good is good of course, but it's not how we judge natural goodness. I know of a person who cannot hear or say a bad word of any person. This is a natural state to her, it is obvious. I have never met another like that. I don't even know how it is possible."

    So would you go as far as to say, that such goodness is something that one must be born with, and no one can be as saintly as she?

    "I do not aspire to be 'all good', because I have found that selflessness can be detrimental to oneself . Selfishness is a requirement for many pleasures and indeed let's replace the word selfish with 'self love' love yourself first ...but that goes against how we were conditioned does it not?"

    Indeed, so often morality amounts to the improper notion of "love others even more than yourself, even if it causes one pain and suffering and destroys one's true capacity to love". This is the great fallacy of modern moral thought.

    "It is a waste of a life to devote it all to other people. Unless after death we do indeed return for a second helping or reap some reward. "

    I agree.
     
  16. RoyLennigan Registered Senior Member

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    1,011
    the rewards of spiritual pleasures are always greater than any you can find physically. you do not have to die to find them, either. spirituality is what motivates you, it is that intangible instigator of all actions. when you look at materialism, you are looking at pieces of matter that can be taken apart or lost. when you look at spirituality, you are dealing with the inherent relationships and interactions of everything in the universe. when you find spirituality (which one must do in their own way) and let it envelope you, you no longer worry about what you should do because you just know.

    take this type of situation for example.
    you travel 35 miles to the beach in a car with AC and water and reach your destination in about an hour. you enjoy the scenery and the water but decide to leave early in the evening in order to get back to the comfort of your home.
    or...
    you walk 50 miles to the beach because you have no car and you haven't been in years. you have little water and it takes you all day to reach the beach. but when you get there, you feel so much more accomplished and you appreciate the beach so much more because of the length and difficulty of the journey. you take a gulp of cold water and it is the best feeling in the world, simply because of what you did before.

    spirituality is about knowing that the purpose of the trip is in the journey itself, not neccessarily the destination. for if we were all just here for the destination, then we'd all be dead already.
     
  17. LiveInFaith Registered Senior Member

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    217
    Isn't this about enjoying pleasures versus source of the pleasuring thing?

    If you enjoy something because the matter is there (physically existed before you), then you live it materialistically, meaning that you depend on the materials in order to have pleasures.

    Spiritual pleasure has nothing to do with the existence of matters. Wether you have or not, you still enjoy your life, feeling pleasured for everything you have / own, as the bless for you. Even if you have nothing, you still feel pleasured.

    Being merciful to anything you have, and enjoy your own properties to fullest extent, is spiritual pleasure. Not wanting thing you don't have, avoids you from misery. Pursuing materials doesn't mean to violate spiritual pleasures (in fact, pursuing materials is enoyable, materially and spiritually), but being merciful for anything you get after your endeavor, is spiritual pleasures.

    But people are greed.
     
  18. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

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    Prince James

    re the saintly being I mentioned, from my own kids I have noticed what I consider an odd thing. My youngest now 2.5yrs has since VERY young (as early as 1.5 as I can recall) demosntrated unusual (for his age) levels of compassion and desire to know what every human facial expression means and when mine alters he is immediately aware, concerned and asks me , if I am happy, why I am sad etc. He will do what he can to alleviate my melancholy state.

    I have a 4 yr old who is oblivious to my mood. The 2yr old I feel has an abundance of awareness with regard to the 'feelings' of others. His character trait in this regard is I am sure one he was born with, as some are blessed with the gift of music, he is blessed with the gift of compassion.

    I can see he will be a great man but hope that his awareness of others needs and desire to meet them does not detract from his own happiness.
     
  19. Plunkies O&A Pest Registered Senior Member

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    What the heck is a spiritual pleasure? Handjob from a ghost?
     
  20. c7ityi_ Registered Senior Member

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    material things are not fun cos they don't last forever.
     
  21. VitalOne Banned Banned

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    all pleasure is spiritual pleasure, it all comes from within
     
  22. Diogenes' Dog Subvert the dominant cliche... Registered Senior Member

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    Is it just pursuit of pleasure we're after? Isn't that all just dopamine and seretonin levels in the brain?! I want something more...
     
  23. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    THeoryOfRelativity:

    Did you have to tell your youngest son what each facial image meant? Or did he grow to sense and to intuit the meaning of each expression himself?

    Perplexity:

    "Nothing is a balanced account, not a loss."

    Is it? For to be nothing, is to never have the capacity to have something - either good or bad - again. That is to say, once one is annihilated, it is incorrect to speak of the state as simply being neutral, for one has forever lost the capacity to have anything whatsoever. Is not this the greatest loss imaginable? Even if one at least does not feel the "negative gain" of pain?

    "Or your sympathy."

    In that it can weaken us?
     

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