How do you feel about guns?

[Baron Max]

Consider, please:

Use a gun successfully: Someone is injured, maimed, or killed.
Use an insurance policy successfully: My car gets fixed.

Is that a miniscule difference to you?

There are many, many more people killed in car accidents than all of the handguns in the entire nation! If your concern was all about people being injured, maimed or killed, you'd be much more concerned about cars than about handguns ...yet you expend a tremendous amount of time and energy here discussing gun control, not car control! So therefore, you aren't concerned about death or injury, you have a different agenda, don't you???

Baron Max

[spuriousmonkey]

There are many, many more people killed in car accidents than all of the handguns in the entire nation! If your concern was all about people being injured, maimed or killed, you'd be much more concerned about cars than about handguns ...yet you expend a tremendous amount of time and energy here discussing gun control, not car control! So therefore, you aren't concerned about death or injury, you have a different agenda, don't you???

Baron Max

Cars are controlled by laws. You need a licence to drive one. You need to register your car. You have to drive on the right side of the road.

[Baron Max]

Cars are controlled by laws. You need a licence to drive one. You need to register your car. You have to drive on the right side of the road.

So, too, are handguns! There are many, many existing laws and rules, varying by state and by city, that control the possession and use of handguns. How many more do y'all want?????

Baron Max

[Tiassa]

There are many, many more people killed in car accidents than all of the handguns in the entire nation! If your concern was all about people being injured, maimed or killed, you'd be much more concerned about cars than about handguns ...yet you expend a tremendous amount of time and energy here discussing gun control, not car control! So therefore, you aren't concerned about death or injury, you have a different agenda, don't you???

That's a point for a different facet of the discussion. Nonetheless, you raise a good point. Would mandatory liability insurance on all guns be too oppressive a measure for you? You'll notice I didn't even go so far as to call for mandatory insurance when I outlined my four basic points of gun control.

So what do you think? Mandatory insurance? The idea has some merits.

[spuriousmonkey]

And a gun 'drivers' licence of course.

[Baron Max]

Would mandatory liability insurance on all guns be too oppressive a measure for you?

No, because you wouldn't be requiring that same insurance for everyone ...ie., the worse offenders, the criminals!!

And that's exactly the problem with your ideas for "gun control" ...they don't target the main offenders of gun violence. You're only targeting the good guys ...while the bad guys continue unabated by any of those fuckin' worthless laws!

If you want me to join you in "gun control", then come up with a way to control the guns of the criminals FIRST ...before you try to control them for all the nice guys.

Criminals will disobey all of the gun laws that you could fashion. If we were to remove guns from the entire planet, the criminals would still have them!

Baron Max

[S.A.M.]

That's a point for a different facet of the discussion. Nonetheless, you raise a good point. Would mandatory liability insurance on all guns be too oppressive a measure for you? You'll notice I didn't even go so far as to call for mandatory insurance when I outlined my four basic points of gun control.

So what do you think? Mandatory insurance? The idea has some merits.

This idea definitely has merits. Especially if defaulters have either very stiff fines or prison sentences. Then any criminal caught with a gun and no insurance would be held liable.

[Baron Max]

This idea definitely has merits. Especially if defaulters have either very stiff fines or prison sentences. Then any criminal caught with a gun and no insurance would be held liable.

Yeah, except for the fact that the cops can't catch all the criminals even after they've done some horrid crime like murder!

So once again, like all of the other gun control suggestions so far, they only target the good guys, not the bad guys!! The good guys would follow the laws, but the bad guys don't follow the laws now, why would they suddenly begin to obey this new gun law?????

See how foolish it is it suggest some gun control measures WITHOUT some major step to control the criminal elements?

Baron Max

[James R]

Interesting, James, but have you seen the rates of crime in most major cities in the USA lately?

Yeah. That would be because of all the guns, I guess.

I would also reiterate ...what you see as "fear" is really the same feelings as electing to carry insurance on your car...

The reason you carry insurance on your car is not because of all the car criminals out there, but to mitigate against the harm caused by accidents.

Having a gun actually makes accidents causing injury more likely, which is the exact opposite of the idea of insurance.

The reason you carry a gun is because you're afraid of the outside world. That's all.

[Oniw17]

JamesR,
Gun control laws won't lower crime rates at all. I can go right outside my house AT ANY TIME OF THE DAY and buy a 9mm Ruger with no name on it. The only way for gun control to ever work would be to search EVERYBODY'S houses.

[Neildo]

I call BS here. I live in a very multicultural city, and being white only just puts me in the majority position. Crime here is lower than most cities. We have predominantly Asian settlers, but also a fair proportion of Africans, Somalians, and more recently East Europeans, lately lots of Polish immigrants.

But 'culture' isn't determined by minorities. By far the largest segments of both populations is White. Blacks feature more highly in crime stats on both sides of the pond. OK, you have a higher percentage in your population, but that doesn't account for the difference in Homicide rates. Our percentages of Asian people are about even.

In SoCal, where I live, my city of around 250k is 66% Mexican, and I'd say a good 15-20% are illegal immigrants -- no joke. When the minority becomes the majority, that's when you have a problem. So even while you may live in a "multicultural" city thinking you're pushing the boundries of danger while you're still the majority, that's nothing compared to many of the cities over here.

A Note to Mr. Scott: See, this is another example of what I mean when I refer to representation. Baron Max would suggest I carry a gun for fear of what might happen. Given that the statistical odds suggest I am more likely to see that gun shoot friends or family in an accident, I don't see how raising the odds of a bad outcome is a wise decision. After all, it only takes one mistake.

And exactly what are the specifications of those statistics where you're most likely to shoot a friend or have an accident? Sure, if you live in an area with absolutely no crime, odds are you're going to shoot a friend or have some other accident instead. Now put yourself in someone else's shoes that lives/works in a bad part of town with high crime, and the odds pretty much guaranteed you'll have at least one incident where it'll be needed. Don't think everyone has the same life as you or lives in the same areas. As mentioned above, you probably think you're living dangerously in Seattle and since you haven't had any troubles in your so-called "dangerous city", that nobody should have a need for a gun. Just keep in mind there are far worse places than your city. Hell, there's places much worse than where I live and I couldn't fathom having to deal with that.

And yeah, in regards to what ya thought of middle America with Scott's incidents in Gary, Indiana, that city is the 5th most dangerous city to live in. Worst goes to Camden, NJ, then Detroit, then Atlanta, St Louis, and Gary.

If you want to live in a self-induced climate of morbid fear, you can do that. But realise that it has no weight with reality.

Consdering the people here in favor of guns HAVE been in numerous incidents where a gun has saved them, your comment has no weight with reality. Quit talking as if the pro-gun people here live in ivory towers where they want a gun to have one but won't ever need them.

Cars are controlled by laws. You need a licence to drive one. You need to register your car. You have to drive on the right side of the road.

You put so much emphasis on laws. You fail to realize that criminals don't follow laws and those are the dangerous ones we need to stop, but that just means your efforts are in vain hurting and affecting the wrong people. Yep, you need a license to drive and registration too, but guess what? There are MILLIONS of people who drive every day that don't have any of the above. Most accidents that happen over here are by unlicensed illegal immigrants (or people who had their licensed revoked) that are also uninsured. When an accident happens, it's a roll of the dice if the person is insured or not. There's a reason why some groups want to give illegal immigrants licenses because there's nothing you can do to stop them from driving, and even if they have licenses, it doesn't mean they'll go out and spend that extra money for insurance since they already don't make a lot of money so they need all they can get. Laws don't mean jack squat. There's a reason why most laws aren't enforced until after the fact.

This idea definitely has merits. Especially if defaulters have either very stiff fines or prison sentences. Then any criminal caught with a gun and no insurance would be held liable.

How would the criminal caught with a gun and no insurance be held liable? The person is already going to jail for the crime commited. Not only that, but jail time is doubled, even tripled and quadrupled depending on where you live if a gun is used in a crime. Insurance or not won't mean a thing coming from that person. It'll be just like when you get in a car accident from an illegal immigrants or other person with no license.. you're screwed.

Yeah, except for the fact that the cops can't catch all the criminals even after they've done some horrid crime like murder!

Yeah, that too, heh.

Interesting, James, but have you seen the rates of crime in most major cities in the USA lately?
”
Yeah. That would be because of all the guns, I guess.

Bzzzt, wrong. The most common weapon used in crimes are knives. This is also the reason why the UK and Australia have such high crime rates even though guns are pretty much banned from civilian hands, not to mention gun crimes still occur there, heh. Too bad civilians aren't allowed an equalizer to protect themselves with.

Having a gun actually makes accidents causing injury more likely, which is the exact opposite of the idea of insurance.

Uh, you can't compare the two like that as those are two completely different things. Gotta compare a gun with a car, not insurance, and with a car, it makes accidents causing injury more likely as well.

The only way for gun control to ever work would be to search EVERYBODY'S houses.

Some people here wouldn't mind that since they live in places like the UK where there's a camera for every 15 people. Too bad that hasn't stopped their ungodly high crime rates even though guns are basically non-existant for civies. Yeah, man, gun control works and makes everyone safer!

http://www.mapsofworld.com/images/wo...rime-rates.jpg



- N

[TW Scott]

If you want to live in a self-induced climate of morbid fear, you can do that. But realise that it has no weight with reality.

It is amazing to me how hoplophobes accuse the gun owners of being afraid. I am anything but afraid 99.9999% of the time. And the times I am afraid it is healty reasonable fear. I wear my gun to go to grocery store, not becuase I fear that I might be robbed, mogged, assualted or any such thing, but becuase there is the possibility. It's like buckling my seatbelt or checking a gas burner to make sure it is off, just a precaution.

[draqon]

http://www.mapsofworld.com/images/wo...rime-rates.jpg



- N

Why isnt Russia there?

[TW Scott]

Yeah. That would be because of all the guns, I guess.

Bzzzzzzt. I am sorry your answer was incomplete and misleading. I'm sorry you have lost all the money you earned here so far today, but here is you consolation prize: The truth.

Crime rates are high in most cities thanks to a combination of factors ranging form crowding, unemployment, ennui, and not the least of them all lack of firearms in civillian hands while a simultaneous abundance of illegal weaponry in criminals hands.

The reason you carry insurance on your car is not because of all the car criminals out there, but to mitigate against the harm caused by accidents.

Actually you carry insurance to minimize the personal impact of car accident, much like CCW permit holders carry a firearm to minimize the personal impact of any violent crime that they would normally fall victim to.

Having a gun actually makes accidents causing injury more likely, which is the exact opposite of the idea of insurance.

Oh, sily, silly, silly man, do you really believe that. No, gun do not cuase accidents, carelessness, mishap, and pure chance cuases accidents. Do you blame the ground becuase you fell and hurt you elbow on it?

The reason you carry a gun is because you're afraid of the outside world. That's all.

Obviously you have no clue to why gun owners carry guns. I am sure there few people who fear the outside world, both gun owner and hoplophobe. To assume that we are all cut of that cloth is the very heighth of silliness.

[James R]

TW Scott:

It is amazing to me how hoplophobes accuse the gun owners of being afraid.

Interesting word choice there. I note that the word "hoplophobe" does not appear in most mainstream dictionaries. It was coined by a pro-gun activist, and is used almost solely by pro-gun lobbyists.

Are you a pro-gun lobbyist, TW Scott? I won't be surprised if you are.

I bet that you're a member of the NRA, at least. Right?

I wear my gun to go to grocery store, not becuase I fear that I might be robbed, mogged, assualted or any such thing, but becuase there is the possibility.

What kind of 2-bit hick town do you live in?

Such behaviour is unheard of in enlightened nations such as Australia.

Crime rates are high in most cities thanks to a combination of factors ranging form crowding, unemployment, ennui, and not the least of them all lack of firearms in civillian hands while a simultaneous abundance of illegal weaponry in criminals hands.

Apart from your unsupported statement regarding guns, you may be onto something.

Actually you carry insurance to minimize the personal impact of car accident, much like CCW permit holders carry a firearm to minimize the personal impact of any violent crime that they would normally fall victim to.

Does it work?

No, gun do not cuase accidents, carelessness, mishap, and pure chance cuases accidents. Do you blame the ground becuase you fell and hurt you elbow on it?

Yeah yeah. Guns don't kill people; people kill people. The old line.

If the ground wasn't there, could I hurt my elbow on it?

Obviously you have no clue to why gun owners carry guns.

Sure I do. It's because they are afraid to leave their homes and pick up groceries without one. They're psychologically dependent.

[TW Scott]

Interesting word choice there. I note that the word "hoplophobe" does not appear in most mainstream dictionaries. It was coined by a pro-gun activist, and is used almost solely by pro-gun lobbyists.

You must have the worlds most uselss dictionary. Damn, doesn't have a word that is centuries old latin for a person who suffer hoplophobia the fear of weapons. Either that or your just a lying jackhole. Or possibly both.

Are you a pro-gun lobbyist, TW Scott? I won't be surprised if you are.

Actually I am a member of a Lobby that represents the bill of rights on total. Since the Second Amendment is there I guess I am a pro gun lobbyist.

I bet that you're a member of the NRA, at least. Right?

Actually no, but we deal with them alot.

What kind of 2-bit hick town do you live in?

Such behaviour is unheard of in enlightened nations such as Australia.

Hmmm, would htat be why you murder and violent crime rates are climbing faster than ours.

Of course you claim to be enlightened, Hitler and Stalin claimed that when they banned weapons.

Apart from your unsupported statement regarding guns, you may be onto something.

Actually my statement is support I suggest to you reading Dr Lott's studies.

Does it work?

Yeah yeah. Guns don't kill people; people kill people. The old line.

If the ground wasn't there, could I hurt my elbow on it?

Oh lovely first you ignore wisdome then you embrace stupidity. No wonder about you. Okay first of all a gun will not kill a person on it's own, even if loaded. It takes a person or event to discharge it and even then, a fair amount of (bad?)luck to kill someone. Second it is not the ground that hurt you, but the sudden decelleration syndrome cuased by your fall and the ground stopping you from falling forever.

Sure I do. It's because they are afraid to leave their homes and pick up groceries without one. They're psychologically dependent.

hmmm, I'm sure you believe that.

[James R]

TW Scott:

You must have the worlds most uselss dictionary.

The Oxford English Dictionary does not contain the word. Neither, I think, does Webster's. Neither do many others.

Do you consider these "the worlds [sic] most uselss [sic] dictionary"?

Damn, doesn't have a word that is centuries old latin for a person who suffer hoplophobia the fear of weapons.

The word is not centuries old. It dates from 1962.

Either that or your just a lying jackhole. Or possibly both.

You lying jackhole.

Why back yourself on your own stupid lies when they are so easy to reveal?

Pick something where you at least have a plausible argument next time.

Actually I am a member of a Lobby that represents the bill of rights on total. Since the Second Amendment is there I guess I am a pro gun lobbyist.

Thought so.

Hmmm, would htat be why you murder and violent crime rates are climbing faster than ours.

Selective choice of statistics there, even if they are true, which I doubt, given your penchant for making things up. The gun murder rate per capita of the United States is the highest in the developed world.

Of course you claim to be enlightened, Hitler and Stalin claimed that when they banned weapons.

So, they weren't all bad then.

Okay first of all a gun will not kill a person on it's own, even if loaded. It takes a person or event to discharge it and even then, a fair amount of (bad?)luck to kill someone.

Yeah, like I said: the old line.

Sure I do. It's because they are afraid to leave their homes and pick up groceries without one. They're psychologically dependent.

hmmm, I'm sure you believe that.

I do.

[TW Scott]

The Oxford English Dictionary does not contain the word. Neither, I think, does Webster's. Neither do many others.

Hmmm, funny my copies of both dictionaries have it. As well as my greek dictionary. I did make an error, the word is greek in origin and has existed for longer than English has.

Do you consider these "the worlds [sic] most uselss [sic] dictionary"?

At times. Of course you do know that not everyword in any English dielect is found in any one dictionary.

The word is not centuries old. It dates from 1962.

Actually, it is centuries old, if not older and of greek, not latin origin. Again I apologize for my slight error.

You lying jackhole.

Why back yourself on your own stupid lies when they are so easy to reveal?

Pick something where you at least have a plausible argument next time.

Seems to me that I am not the one lying, I made a slight mistake in the origin. The word is greek in origin and is far older than you give it credit.

Thought so.

Of course I am also a Free Speach lobbyist, Freedom of Religion lobbyist, free press lobbyist and so and so forth. Weapons are only a 10th of my fight.

Selective choice of statistics there, even if they are true, which I doubt, given your penchant for making things up. The gun murder rate per capita of the United States is the highest in the developed world.

No it isn't. that's just your propaganda speaking again. And, yes the crime rates in Canada, Australia, and Great Britain are growing much faster than the crime rates in the United States. Not only that, while you have an increase in crime across the board, our violent crime is declining, but our so called white collar crime is increasing.

So, they weren't all bad then.

They disarmed the populace so they couldn't fight back, Jackhole. You know it people like you who make people like them possible.

Yeah, like I said: the old line.

So you have yet to invalidate that old line. It's a fact, you know it, and it scares you. It scares becuase then you have to take responsibility for your actions. You can't sit back and say... Well, if was for sach and such I wouldn't have killed them. Which is a total bullshit line. Step up and be a man.

I do.

Well, you can believe it all you want. After all people only believe what they can't prove.

[phlogistician]

It is amazing to me how hoplophobes accuse the gun owners of being afraid.

Hoplophobes, for starters, that's a made up term, and isn't helpful. Also, in my case, it isn't relevant, as I'm not afraid of guns, I've shot a wide variety of firearms, shotguns, small and full bore rifles, and various handguns.

This was all for sporting purposes though. I never considered keeping a gun for self defense. This is why I think many gun owners are fearful. I see guns as a sporting implement, and no more.

So, next time you try and build as straw man, use real terms, and apply them accurately, or it makes you start to look desperate.

[phlogistician]

Neildo, what is the point of showing that graph? TW Scott admits that despite all the robbery attempts made on him, he doesn't bother reporting them to the Police. So the figure recorded for the USA is obviously far too low. If TW Scott is representative, American citizens suffer attempted crimes far more often than anyone in Europe!