1+1+1=1? What's Up with the Trinity?

Ok, exactly what is supposed to be going on with the Christian Triune God? I have heard that the differing persons of the Godhead are really personas, "masks" of the One God--which means they're really all the same person, right? No, I am told, it doesn't mean that.

I am told that it is the same God, only having different functions, like 3-in-1 oil. But still, then it is one thing, only doing different things, while Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are supposed to be different persons.

I am told that the three-and-yet-one is an attempt to express God's essential ineffability, that it shows explicitly how we cannot understand God by having God be so manifestly un-understandable. Yet if this were so, God being both invisible and pink would be just as useful for that purpose (to pull an example out of thin air..

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).

Perhaps, I think, the persons of God exist in the same manner that different persons exist within a person with Multiple-Personality Disorder. Yet, if Jesus and God the Father and The Holy Spirit are all God and Perfect and One, how can they be different? How can one have something that another does not possess? And if they are not in even the slightest way "different" and they are all One God existing fully within each other, how are they separate persons?

Christians -- any help? Jews, Muslims -- any opinions? Various heathens, pagans, godless infidels -- any amusing observations?

Peace.

 

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If the bibles don't say, you can make up whatever you want to fill the gaps.

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Consistency with the bibles is preferred, but not strictly enforced.

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Ok, here is my take: God is a shape-shifter!

 

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Its hogwash.
I personally never understood what the hell a 'trine' was, but I can tell you most christians accept it only as a novelty which supposedly only makes sense to 'believers'.

So would any believers out there try to explain its significance and why its so special and holy? It just sounds like it came of the top of someones head.......

 

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AS A CHRISTIAN, THAT HAS NOT PERSONALLY SEEN GOD FACE TO FACE, MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT IS TRUE;"IT SHOWS EXPLICITLY HOW WE CANNOT UNDERSTAND GOD BY HAVING GOD BE SO MANIFESTLY UN-UNDERSTANDABLE".
I THINK THAT ONLY NOW THAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN WRITING & READING SCIENCE FICTION FOR YEARS,(AND STUDYING & UNDERSTANDING PHYSICS) CAN SOME MODERN PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT REALITY MAY BE STRANGER THAT FICTION. WE MAY NEVER UNDERSTAND WHAT WE SEE, IF GOD EXISTS OUT OF TIME, SPACE & DIMENSION; WHILE WE EXIST IN A 3-D UNIVERSE, GOD MAY EXIST IN THE "ALL TOTALITY MULTIVERSE", SO THAT WE MAY NEED TO DIE TO EXIST IN THAT REALM, AND "SEE" A "MULTIVERSE BEING"?
ANYWAY, I AM NOT SURE WHY IN THE BIBLE, IT STARTS WITH "ELOHIM", (WHICH I AM TOLD IS A PLURAL NAME FOR GOD IN HEBREW), THEN EMPHASIZES THE SINGULARITY OF GOD ("EL" IS SINGULAR FOR GOD IN HEBREW, AS IN MICHAEL), AND UNIQUENESS (SUCH AS "YAH", "I AM" IN HEBREW),THEN JESUS & HIS FOLLOWERS TALK ABOUT THE TRINITY IN INDIRECT WAYS, SUCH AS REFERRING TO GOD AS "FATHER", AND SAYING THAT THEY ARE "ONE".
AS SCIENCE HAS SHOWN, THERE ARE 'RULES' TO THIS UNIVERSE, SOME THINGS ARE REALLY 'STRANGE', HOW CAN LIGHT, MAGNETISM & RADIOWAVES ALL BE PART OF ONE CONTINUUM? HOW CAN EVERYTHING BE MADE OF ELECTRONS, NEUTRONS, & PROTONS, YET IF YOU ADD OR DELETE ANYONE OF THEM, YOU GET ENTIRELY NEW MATTER ("ATOMS", WHAT IS THE REAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HYDROGEN & HELIUM, GOING ON DOWN THE PERIODIC TABLE?)WHY WOULD EACH HAVE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PROPERTIES? I THINK IN THIS UNIVERSE WE MAY NEVER KNOW, BUT EITHER SCIENCE &/OR DEATH WILL SHOW US IN THE END?
The equation may really be 1=1=1=1 or 1(1x1x1)?
Even Einstein didn't think that "quantum mechanics" could be true. This stuff is so 'strange' that some scientists have even tried to explain it using 'ZEN', I guess that they would 'just die', if they had to state anything scientific in a 'christian' way?
sorry about the capital letters, my WORD program was stuck & I could not find where it was changed to caps.

 

Re: Re: 1+1+1=1? What's Up with the Trinity?

Randolfo,
Nothing against you and no disgrace to your religion. But it seems to me that Jesus was trying to tell you all something, and entire christian world miss that and follows what paul,mark and matthew wrote in there. Now let me give you little expample what jesus was trying to say, and yet you still will miss this point.



"Some Forgotten Sayings of Jesus"

Any believer can call God “Father” according to the Bible
Jesus, at the end of his mission, made it clear that God is not only his father, but father of all, and God of all, and even his own God whom he worshipped throughout his earthly career. He said:
“I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” (John 20:17 RSV 1952)
The writer who is Paul also made it clear that any believer can address God as “Father.” He wrote:
"We cry, Abba, Father" (Romans 8:15 KJV 1611).
Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
“. . . Do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. (Matthew 23:1,9 NIV 1984)
According to Matthew, Jesus taught the crowds to call God ‘Father’. He said to them:
“This, then, is how you should pray: ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name . . .’ ” (Matthew 6:9 NIV).

Jesus made it clear that he is not God when he said:
“Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” (Mark 10:18)
A man had ran up and knelt before Jesus and called him “Good Teacher.” Jesus used the opportunity to make it clear to people that they must not praise him more than a human being deserves to be praised.

Jesus depends on God for Authority: God depends on no one.
Jesus said:
“I can do nothing of my own authority” (John 5:30).
“I do as the Father has commanded me” (John 14:31 RSV).
Needless to say, God does not receive commands from anyone. Jesus said:
“The words that I say to you I do not speak of my own authority.” (John 14:10 RSV)
“I do nothing of my own authority but speak thus as the Father has taught me.” (John 8:28 RSV)
God has full authority, and full knowledge. He cannot be taught, but He teaches.

Jesus is not Equal to “The Father”
Jesus said:
“The Father is greater than I” (John 14:28 RSV).
People forget this and they say that Jesus is equal to the Father. Whom should we believe—Jesus or the people?

Jesus Does Not Know Everything
Speaking of the Last Day, Jesus said:
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only” (Matthew 24:36).

Did Jesus Raise Himself up?
God raised him up. (Acts 2:24)
Jesus did not have power to raise himself up. God had to raise him up, as the author of Acts says.

Jesus prayed to God: God prays to no one. Jesus prayed, saying:
“Abba, Father, all things are possible to thee; remove this cup from me; yet not what I will, but what thou wilt.” (Mark 14:32)
Jesus fell on his face and prayed to God, begging God to save him from crucifixion. This also shows that Jesus had a will different from God’s will. The writers of Matthew, Mark, and Luke tell us that it was Jesus’s wish to be saved from crucifixion, but it was God’s will to let the crucifixion take place. This shows that Jesus had a will different from the will of God, at least for a moment. Therefore he was not God. He declared in a moment of desperation:
“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46)

Jesus did not know the tree had no fruit
He [Jesus] was hungry. And on seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it , he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs (Mark 11 12-13).
When he saw that the tree had leaves, he thought that he might find fruit on it. But when he came up close to the tree he realised there were no fruits. After all, it was not even fig season.

Bible calls Jesus Servant of God
“Behold my servant whom I have chosen.” (Matthew 12:18 In this passage God calls Jesus His servant)
"The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus" (Acts 3:13).

For truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus. . . (Acts 4:27).
Everyone, except for God, are God’s servants. Jesus, too, is God’s servant.

Who was real Worker of Miracles?
Bible says it was God who did the miracles through Jesus:
Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: (Acts 2:22 KJV)
People say that since Jesus worked many miracles, he must be God. But here we see that God did the miracles; Jesus was the instrument God used to accomplish His work. Jesus was a man whom God approved of. This means he was a righteous man.

Jesus cannot guarantee positions
“To sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father” (Matthew 20:23).
Therefore if we want to secure our position with God in the life hereafter we must turn to God and ask Him.

A Misunderstood saying
I and the Father are one. (John 10:30)
People like to quote this saying, but they forget the following saying:
John 17:11: "Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."
This shows that what was meant was one in purpose, not one in substance as people think. The disciples could not become one human, but they can pursue the same goal. That is to say, they can be one in purpose, just as Jesus and the Father are one in purpose.

Did Jesus say everything John says he said?
Consider the following sayings of Jesus found in John's Gospel alone:
John 14:9: "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."
John 6:35: "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life."
John 8:12: "I am the light of the world."
John 8:58: "Before Abraham was, I am."
John 10:7: "I am the door of the sheep."
John 11:25: "I am the resurrection, and the life."
John 14:6: "I am the way, the truth, and the life."
John 15:1: "I am the true vine."


Christian scholars tell us that if Jesus had made all these fantastic claims about himself, the first three gospels would surely have recorded them. Mark was written around 70 C.E., followed by Matthew and Luke somewhere between 80-90 C.E. John, written around 100 C.E., was the last of the four canonized gospels. The Christian scholar James Dunn writes in his book The Evidence for Jesus:

“If they were part of the original words of Jesus himself, how could it be that only John picked them up and none of the others? Call it scholarly skepticism if you like, but I find it almost incredible that such sayings should have been neglected had they been known as a feature of Jesus’ teaching. If the ‘I ams’ had been part of the original tradition, it is very hard indeed to explain why none of the other three evangelists made use of them.” (The Evidence for Jesus, p. 36)

Similarly, the New American Bible tells us in its introduction, under the heading How to Read Your Bible:
“It is difficult to know whether the words or sayings attributed to Jesus are written exactly as he spoke them. . . . The Church was so firmly convinced that . . . Jesus . . . taught through her, that she expressed her teaching in the form of Jesus’ sayings.” (St. Joseph Medium Size Edition, p.23)


What we have in John, then is what people were saying about Jesus at the time John was written (about 70 years after Jesus was raised up). The writer of John simply expressed those ideas as if Jesus had said them. Rev. James Dunn says further in his book that, almost certainly, the writer of the fourth gospel
“was not concerned with the sort of questions which trouble some Christians today — Did Jesus actually say this? Did he use these precise words? and so on.” (The Evidence for Jesus, p. 43)

Scholars have concluded that this gospel was originally written in a simple form. But this gospel was later on, as the New Jerusalem Bible says, “amplified and developed in several stages during the second half of the first century.” (The New Jerusalem Bible: Introduction to John, p. 1742)

It says further:
“It is today freely accepted that the fourth Gospel underwent a complex development before it reached its final form.” (p. 1742)
On a previous page, the same Bible says:
“It would seem that we have only the end-stage of a slow process that has brought together not only component parts of different ages, but also corrections, additions and sometimes even more than one revision of the same discourse.” (The New Jerusalem Bible, p. 1739)


The New American Bible says that most scholars “have come to the conclusion that the inconsistencies were probably produced by subsequent editing in which homogeneous materials were added to a shorter original.” (The New American Bible, Revised New Testament, p. 143)


Please read and think. Thank you.

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An alternative explanation could be -

Jebus = 0.333 god
Father = 0.333 god
Spook = 0.333 god

An interesting deduction from this, which may not be agreeable with all christians, is

Dad + sonny = 0.666

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Personally I think tht christians messed smth up in their own beleif system and now can't put it back in order. Much like a code- you make it, after endless repeats it works, but at the end you don't understand anything of it, but it still works(well maybe for christians

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)

 

Ehm...Ehm...the controversial GOTO you mean

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bye!

 

Markx, excellent reply. I feel the same way. Jesus was a perfect example of a human being and "God" was using him to demonstrate that to us. Jesus never meant for "his words" to claim that he was "God". He informed everyone that they can also become One with God as was he. I'm still waiting to hear from a Christian on this one. You cited critical quotes that can not be refuted by anybody. Good Job

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Thank you sir. But trust me for last 2000 years they are missing this message and justifying it by believing in what all the other so called inspired writers wrote in there. It is a sad situation but that's what happens when you don't question.
I agree with you God was using to demonstrate how one should act. And the most mis understood verse every single christian I met use to justify that he is son of is, " I and father are one". But one in what?? No one bother to read the context and try to use it as a major deal and disregarding all other verses and only remember this one. Anyways I gota go.
Later.

 

I'd like to point out that the sum of your Jebus + Father + Spook is only 0.999; which is 0.001 less than 1.0

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Seriously, isn't trying to find an equation for God like trying to calculate how many angels could dance on the head of a pin?

When a contradiction in religious dogma is brought to the attention of theists, their typical response is to say that, "The Lord works in mysterious ways". But even more mysterious is how reasonable men convince themselves that religious explanations adequately describe our world.

Michael

 

Lets look at something we think we do understand...ourselves.
You have three basic driving forces that rule and influence all your decisions and actions:
1. Physical...be it pain, hunger, cold, etc.....it motivates and leads your actions.

2. Intellect...your brain...be it full of experiences or slow to the point of idiocy, what you know and how you think, your ability to reason and rationalize influences and guides your actions.

3. Your heart, your emotions, your Spirit....be you self-centered or a giver, brought up in love or hardened by hate, full of desire and want or blind to any emotion at all, it motivates and guides your actions.

You have three very distinct, very differently motivated drives...often at complete odds in their function and at war with each other but all serving your purposes and needs or desires. They all have one ultimate goal, to satisfy you but yet they are so different in their actions. Are you in fact three seperate entitys acting as one? Do you have MPD?



So if God is in fact three yet one
1. The all knowing
2. The physical man
3. The Spirit


Is the notion really so hard to understand?

 

Once one decides to fudge definitions, anything is possible. And once the definition is fudged, it's possible to have as many "basic driving forces" as one requires.

In Taken's post, we are asked to accept that the intellect is something separate from the body, ie. it has an existence apart from the physical brain in which it arises from. Based upon that reasoning, it is possible to say that a flower is comprised of 2 "driving forces" -
1. The physical (stems, petals, etc)
2. The scent it gives out.


The underlying point I wish to make is that it is possible to sub-divide one into a trinity. Or a "quad-rinity", or even a "million-ity", once we set our minds to it.

I could as easily say -
"A man is the sum of FOUR distinct forces -
1. His job or occupation.
2. The bust size of spouse.
3. His bank balance.
4. The vehicle he drives.

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Instead of trying to defend the idea that "One = Three", perhaps it is simpler to say that christianity is a religion of 3 gods.

 

It would be easier for Christians to state this, but being that Christianity is a Monotheistic Religion they would never admitt to it. Even though, I do believe they worship 3 Gods.

 

"""I could as easily say -
"A man is the sum of FOUR distinct forces -
1. His job or occupation.
2. The bust size of spouse.
3. His bank balance.
4. The vehicle he drives. """""

Are you an introvert or extrovert?

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Those are motivations that derive outside of your being and in fact appeal to or intice your decision makeing.
You feel pain, satisfaction, or any other number of complicated sensory sensations based on what you do and how you do it as well, when you are speaking in terms of your mentality and copeing mechanism. You make your decisions based on your physical needs and desires, your emotional attachments and most importantly, as it is often the supreame factor...YOUR BRAIN!
You reason, you rationalize, you make a judgement trying to sort out the lessor of the evils and wiegh the benefits against the cost or effort needed to obtain your goal. I suppose you could say your mind is the mediator, the judge that sits before your desires and fears. Of course no one can gaurantee you have a just, or even a reasonable judge working for you....some people have little rational, and even less common sense, but the basic premise is the same.

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I do not worship three Gods...I do not even worship one "GOD" by the dictionarys definition of such.....
I Love, Honor, and Trust in "Life", The great "I Am', the Father of all existance and keeper of my soul.
Makeing blind, narrow minded assertions about the belief of people whom you do not know and beliefs that you do not understand is just as ignorant when an atheist does it to a Christian as it is visa- versa.

 

My exact response was

From this, one could impute that I was making a statement about your personal beliefs (Taken). However, that was not the case.

quote
----------------------
You feel pain, satisfaction, or any other number of complicated ....and most importantly, as it is often the supreame factor...YOUR BRAIN!
----------------------

Does that signify agreement with my post? My point was pretty much the same - The BRAIN is part of the physical.

To count the brain as a "mind" and as a separate entity is equivalent to saying that the scent of a flower is something apart from it's petals/physical portion.

 

For your Eyes Only!!

Taken,
So I take that you believe in Bible?. If you do, then how come you ignore all the following verses? And cry and whine about few that realy have no significance , If I were to be christian, I would like to believe in what my So called "God" try to tell me rather then what so called disciples try to add in later. Now it is simple ignorance of yours that you fail to understand the message and try to justify your triune God theory with the lame examples. Sorry no offense to you but that's the idea I got from your posts. Now care to read the following verses??

I do not subscribe to the `Doctrine of Trinity' beacuse the under
quoted twelve verses from the New Testament (NASB) catagorically
and in very **EXPLICITE TERMS** NEGATE the above concept.

1. "...I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I."
John.14:28

2. "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every
man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of
Christ." 1 Corin. 11:3

3. "Behold, My servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My
soul is well pleased; I will put My Spirit upon him, and he shall
proclaim justice to the Gentiles." Matthew 12:18

4. "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers,
has glorified His Servant Jesus..." Acts 3:13.

5. "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy
holy Servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint..." Acts 4:27.

6. "For you first, God raised up His Servant, and sent him to bless
you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways." Acts 3:26

7. "And you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God."
1 Corin 3:23.

8. "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee the only true
God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent." John 17:3

9. "And Jesus said to him, `Why do you call me good? No one is good
except God alone." Mark 10:18

10. "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of
heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." Matthew 24:36

11. "Jesus said to her, `Stop clinging to me; for I have not yet
ascended to the Father; but go to my bretheren, and say to them,
`I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.'"
John 20:17

12. "And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and he
knelt down and began to pray, saying, `Father, if Thou art willing,
remove this cup from me; yet not my will, but Thine be done."
Luke 22:41-42


To those who advocate the `Doctrine of Trinity' I request them to
read Matthew 4:10;

"Then Jesus said to him, `Begone, Satan! For it is written,
`You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.'"


Now if you still don't get it. Then I feel pity for you.
Peace

 

Markx,

If I understand correctly, Taken was trying to say that he does not believe in the christian bible.

However, he did seem to subscribe to the belief that humans are comprised of 3 distinct "forces". Also, he has expressed belief in a "soul", which he lists among the distinct "forces.

 

God is was not you who stated Christians worship three gods...and I didnt intend to imply that you had. Someone else stated it.


Markx....I have also never said Jesus was God...have actually battled against that in other posts...I was simply trying to explain the ability of many working together to the same purpose though seperate in detail and methods.

I have yet to WHINE about anything. I was trying to give insight as ONE Christian to the plausibility and reasoning behind the teachings of the trinity and how it is viewed by some believers. If you do not care to learn about other peoples beliefs and thinking than why bother to be on a discussion forum about it?

Just as I have little use for Christians who are close minded and narrow sighted, neither do I find it usefull in non-believers. Open, civil, and acceptable discussion leads to knowledge and understanding. I learn much from my discusions with non-believers, Pagans and others who do not classify themselves here. We certainly should have no fear of understanding others reasoning even if we still do not hold to their beliefs. If you wish to crucify someone or take a prejudicial stance against them simply because they do not agree with what you hold true than you are no different than Tony1; who promises hell fire to any one based on HIS assumption of truth and haveing nothing to do with their quality and value as another human being or their own actions to be decent, civil, compasionate people. I will not judge you by what you believe...but by what you do and say. If you have found me hatefull, or derogatory, disrespectfull of your beliefs or thinking than convict me and treat me as such.

 

Point noted!

I appologize for my ingnorant behavier and sorry for that. I did not attack you personaly I attacked on those triune believes. But I understand what you are saing and I hope you accept my humble appology.