Before Jesus

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Adstar,

Nothat is not valid. The view is flawed because of an error in logic. But a God who intentionally designed and created people with flaws has no right to judge them for his atrocious design error. With omnipotence he could have easily created everyone without a flaw, that he chose not to means he deliberately wanted many people to be tortured in hell. That is not the sign of a loving god but an evil monster.

Correction, you "logic" is in error same as the poster whom i replied too. God has designed us with the ability to accept truth as truth and it is in that acceptance that we are saved. Being flawed does not mean we cannot appreciate and accept what is perfect, Being flawed does not stop us from coming to the reality that we are flawed and admitting as such to the One who is perfect. But pride will always cause those who believe in their supposed "logic" to reject Perfection is a vain attempt to justify their own imperfection.

But if such a god had provided more appropriate guidance and education and a clear view of his objectives then no one would have had a problem making the correct choices.

He has ,through His Word. Millions have rejected his Word. That's their free will choice



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

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Adstar,

No, that is not possible. His omnipotence means he has the capability to create people that were also perfect. That he chose to create something imperfect and then choose to murder billions of them through no fault of their own means, by any reasonable standard, that he is far from perfect, unless you call such murders a perfect scenario.

You think you can declare God guilty and condemn Him. What a vain and pompous person you are. An imperfect being seeks to condemn his Creator using his wonky logic. Your false allegations of "murder" has even less effect on The Ultimate reality as a flea has on the path of the Suns orbit in the galaxy. You should read the book of Job.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Lawdog]

There are many here who have no fear of Hell. Yet if all this is "Fantasy" like they claim, why do they waste their precious time debating with us? They are the ones fantasizing, after all, to believe that one will not be judged is the greatest fantasy possible, especially if you simulataneously assert the moral conviction that religion is evil. Oh folly profound!

[Adstar]

So does anyone know whether Islam and Judaism have Hell concepts. I ought to know this but I can't remember, and am too tired to do the research. But I seem to recall that the bloodthirsty hell concept was introduced by the all-loving Christian religion.

I have read about the islamic hell, it has a lot in common with the catholic one but it is more descriptive in the extent as to the description of the touchers infidels will be put through there. Seems the islamic hell is more into mutilation of bodies rather than burning of bodies. Just like jihadists in real life are into mutilation of infidels by bombs and butchers knives.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Hey i just heard the true muslims are at it again in Mumbai india. Following muhammeds call to bring terror to the unbelievers.

[Cris]

Afstar,

Correction, you "logic" is in error same as the poster whom i replied too. God has designed us with the ability to accept truth as truth and it is in that acceptance that we are saved. Being flawed does not mean we cannot appreciate and accept what is perfect, Being flawed does not stop us from coming to the reality that we are flawed and admitting as such to the One who is perfect. But pride will always cause those who believe in their supposed "logic" to reject Perfection is a vain attempt to justify their own imperfection.

No, you've missed the point. Omnipotence means he could have created everyone with all the abilities to make the correct choices. In your myth he DELIBERATELY chose to make some of them fail to gratify his own evil.

[Lawdog]

Cris,
In the system of theology, we understand that God gave each free will. He does not make anyone fail him.

[Cris]

Adstar,

Correction, you "logic" is in error same as the poster whom i replied too. God has designed us with the ability to accept truth as truth and it is in that acceptance that we are saved. Being flawed does not mean we cannot appreciate and accept what is perfect, Being flawed does not stop us from coming to the reality that we are flawed and admitting as such to the One who is perfect. But pride will always cause those who believe in their supposed "logic" to reject Perfection is a vain attempt to justify their own imperfection.

No, you've missed the point. Omnipotence means he could have created everyone with all the abilities to make the correct choices. In your myth he DELIBERATELY chose to make some of them fail to gratify his own evil.

[Cris]

Lawdog,

In the system of theology, we understand that God gave each free will. He does not make anyone fail him.

But if they fail then it must necessarily be because of his faulty design of them, or his deliberate choice. His omnipotence could have guaranteed they all had the right information and intelligence to make the correct choices.

[Lawdog]

The faculty of the WILL in man is a defective and broken faculty. Eventhough humans know what is right they often lack the will to choose it. God did not create them this way. The INTELLECT, another faculty of the soul, informs the WILL as to the right choice, but the intellect is also darkened through original sin, thus the intellect does not always correctly discern the good, eventhough the WILL is directed toward some unknown good.

[Cris]

Lawdog,

There are many here who have no fear of Hell.

Not accurate. There are many here that do not believe your fantasies about a hell; quite a different matter.

Yet if all this is "Fantasy" like they claim, why do they waste their precious time debating with us?

Out of our natural generosity and kindness in the hope that you will see the massive errors in your irrational thinking.

They are the ones fantasizing, after all,

But you are the ones that CAN’T show that your fantasies are anything else. The non-believers here are not making any claims that can be considered fantasy. Please remember that you are religious and so cannot think very clearly about such things.

to believe that one will not be judged is the greatest fantasy possible,

Dream on kiddo.

especially if you simulataneously assert the moral conviction that religion is evil.

To convince billions that a fantasy is real has to be the biggest con trick and evil the world has yet seen.

[Cris]

Lawdog,

The faculty of the WILL in man is a defective and broken faculty. Eventhough humans know what is right they often lack the will to choose it. God did not create them this way.

If a product is faulty IN ANY WAY then it is the designer and the creator ONLY that is ENTIRELY at fault.

The INTELLECT, another faculty of the soul, informs the WILL as to the right choice, but the intellect is also darkened through original sin, thus the intellect does not always correctly discern the good, eventhough the WILL is directed toward some unknown good.

And your god would have designed and created all of this and through his omnipotence could have avoided these faults. It is still his fault whatever way to try to cut this.

[Lawdog]

You reasoning is flawed. You do not understand the free will.

[Cris]

Lawdog,

You reasoning is flawed. You do not understand the free will.

How so?

[Provita]

im just debating here for kicks and giggles, and for some intellectual discussions, but mainly for kicks and giggles, and boy is this fun!

[Lawdog]

God is not responsible for the fault of Man. He created man perfectly.

[Lawdog]

im just debating here for kicks and giggles, and for some intellectual discussions, but mainly for kicks and giggles, and boy is this fun!

Do you have faith?

[Jenyar]

But a God who intentionally designed and created people with flaws has no right to judge them for his atrocious design error. With omnipotence he could have easily created everyone without a flaw, that he chose not to means he deliberately wanted many people to be tortured in hell. That is not the sign of a loving god but an evil monster.

Freedom is not a flaw, but disobeying God is a mistake. God is perfect, thus He created us with perfect freedom. There's usually no complaints about that. But freedom means our actions are not necessarily contingent on God's perfection. Only to obey (and by implication, believe) Him is to be perfect, in accordance to His image.

But if such a god had provided more appropriate guidance and education and a clear view of his objectives then no one would have had a problem making the correct choices.

Apparently, they would. All the guidance and education in the world means nothing if nobody actually listens to it. How do you teach someone who doesn't want to be taught?

[Quigly]

God is not responsible for the fault of Man. He created man perfectly.

Actually, man wasn't created perfectly. He was created Good.

If man was created perfectly, he would have never sinned.

Man was created good. Good means that he was created with pure motives. Man's motives were pure until the second they disobeyed God...Man was not perfect though. Man was still learning and being progressive through the relationship they had with God. *Just a side note*

Just because God knows that you will go left or right in the fork of a road, doesn't place the responsibility of your decision on him. The thing you should be questioning is "why" God knowing our decision will lead to devastation, would still allow us to make our own choice.

[Jenyar]

The thing you should be questioning is "why" God knowing our decision will lead to devastation, would still allow us to make our own choice.

What would the reaction be if we were not allowed to make our own choices? We'd be like people strapped into straitjackets. Everybody might go to "heaven", but all indications are most people wouldn't be happy about it. Then what would be the point? What would "love" mean, what would being "good" mean?

CS Lewis made an interesting observation: He said there are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way."

There's another question that could be asked: why would people knowing their decision will lead to devastation still make it? Maybe it depends on their priorities?

[Jenyar]

So does anyone know whether Islam and Judaism have Hell concepts. I ought to know this but I can't remember, and am too tired to do the research. But I seem to recall that the bloodthirsty hell concept was introduced by the all-loving Christian religion.

This might shed some light:

The earliest records of ancient religions in Israel, Babylon (now Iraq), and Greece all refer to a place where the souls or "shades" of people who have died go to stay. This was often depicted as somewhere deep underground. But the idea that this land of the dead was reserved to punish wrongdoers didn't arise until some time in the first millennium BC, in tandem with the belief that this subterranean world housed an infernal (lower, inferior) god. Initially, this underground world was sometimes a place where greater gods banished lesser gods. The anti-god Ahriman, for example, of the ancient Persian religion of Zoroastrianism (7th-6th century BC), took up residence beneath the Earth in the House of the Lie, amid every sort of filth and stench, after being defeated by the supreme god, Ahura Mazda. Ancient Israelite religions depicted Belial, a demon god, as Lord of the Abyss, an undersea pit. Likewise, Moloch, a god to whom child sacrifices were made throughout the ancient Middle East, was Lord of a subterranean kingdom of flaming lava. Eventually most of these devil-realms were combined with Sheol (the "Grave"), making this Near East concept of a depository of ghosts a place of torment. The Old Testament describes Sheol as a dark and dusty city with high, impregnable walls and barred gates--a place of no return for both good and bad souls*. Not until the 6th century AD did Catholic Christianity modify the Sheol concept, articulating a vision of Hell (an Old English word meaning "covered place") that has endured to modern times: a place where the sinful are sent to burn in eternal fire. The Bible lacks any explicit statement about Satan ruling Hell, however. It was other early Christian writings that assigned him the role of Hell's warden. -- from The Origin of Hell as a Place of Punishment by Robert M. Price.

*When Jesus is said to have preached to the "sprits in prison" in 1 Peter 3:18-22, this refers to Sheol. I.e. He rescues good people from sharing the same fate as bad people.

Revelation 1:17-18
"Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."