Ex-Gay Ministry Works Just Fine

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Woody, Jun 28, 2006.

  1. Woody Musical Creationist Registered Senior Member

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    2,419
    Among all the lies being perpetuted by gay activists, the waters have been truely muddied for political purposes. Scientific principles have been abandoned for social/political activism.

    For example, sexual re-orientaion is a workable solution through psychotherapy. People that want to change can be helped by the God of Christianity.

    Proof Positive from NARTH:


    The God of Christianity can do what the liberals are incapable of -- He can change a person's sexual orientation and help them live the life they want to live. Liberals are so ashamed they do not have this power. Well Ha! Ha!

    It prooves God is a real, life-changing force. Are there any secular success stories out there for changing sexual orientation?

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    As I said before proof-positive: God can change a life where liberals fail to make any difference, and this makes them ashamed.

    -----------------------------------------------------

    The churches that affrim homosexual relationships are cheating the homosexuals. A personal testimony:

    -------------------------------------------------------

    From My Path to Lesbianism:

    Testimony from another ex-lesbian


    ---------------------------------------------

    If you are homosexual and want to change, then don't listen to the lieing liberal soul-destroyers from hell. Don't let these worthless scum-bags trick you. You can get the help you want and need from professionals in the psychiatric community.

    Here are some links for you:

    NARTH

    Exodus International

    Don't listen to the liars that try to paint them as failures.

    Love conquers ALL sins.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2006
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  3. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

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    One of your "positive proof personal testimonies" was from "Prophet Yahweh," the self-described prophet of the UFO gods that come to visit at his command.

    I think we can safely disregard your "sources" out of hand as being bullshit just on the merit of that one. Which one of these was to a study published in a peer-reviewed journal? What longitudinal studies have you reviewed that examine the participants of such "reorientation" programs over time?

    What you've done is applied your bigotry to a conclusion you want and looked for data, regardless of the veracity of the source, and applied it to your conclusion. Such bullshit will win in the mind of a bigot every time.
     
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  5. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

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    i for one... want to here more... and i applaud those with the strenght of character who for various reasons have abandonned being gay, and living in complete sin...

    and if just one of those sources are good, then thats great...

    any messed up sources, do not detract from the overall signifigance of the benefit towards peoples lives, when they abandon gay behavior.

    -MT
     
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  7. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

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    Let's see the source that provides a testable, reproducible and longitudinal study of gay reorientation success. Just one.
     
  8. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    9,199
    Woody,

    Moderator comment.

    Please don't copy/paste large texts. It violates forum rules. Just paste the links. Please replace these long pastes in this thread with appropriate links within 24 hours otherwise I will delete them.

     
  9. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

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    5,874
    First, I never implied that you were a homosexual that reoriented. But if its true that's your business (you did say you "know for a fact" and this would seem the only way you could "know"). Second, if there's any "homework" to be done, it would be on the individual that makes the bold claims that you do. You are asserting that the so-called 'reorientation' of homosexuals is a fact. I'm simply asking for you to supply facts. Instead, you've gone to great lengths to provide us with anecdotes from UFO nutters and apologists of various religious delusions.

    Woody, are you truly this ignorant or are you so wrapped up in these copy/paste operations that you fail to even read your own words? The The Society for Psychical Research was founded in 1882 but they've yet to demonstrate any psychic abilities. Fallacious appeals to authority and anecdotes of believers are hardly evidence and only an utter fool would consider them so. Empirical evidence is what is needed in order to support your claims.

    So let me do your homework for you:

    Emprical Evidence to Support the Claim of 'Reorientation' of Homosexuals

    Only a few studies have been conducted that even attempt to provide some empiricism with regard to the notion that gays can be 'reorientated' to heterosexual. Most notably was Spitzer (2003) who used self-reported informants to document at least some "minimal" change over 5 years. Pseudo-therapy groups like NARTH base much of their claims on the work of studies like Spitzer's -and Spitzer is probably the most recently notable effort, but the pseudoscience of reparative therapy probably began with Moberly (1983), who used no study subjects at all! She based her entire book on her own opinions based on the ancient works of luminaries like Freud.

    But its the work of Spitzer and others that NARTH would like to cite (and you'd notice if you did your homework instead of relying on me to do it for you) as valid. The primary outcome of Spitzer's study was that, in general, some gay men and women can change their core behaviors and appear content to be heterosexual. The problem is that the very thing that pseudoscience groups like NARTH accuse gays of (pretending to be naturally orientated to a given gender) is what may be happening in their 'reorientations!'

    Criticisms of 'Reorientation' and 'Reparative' Therapy of Homosexuals

    The only thing that can really be said about NARTH and other nutter groups like them (assuming that even some of their anecdotes are valid) is that they are successful in getting homosexuals (or bisexuals) to favor religious delusions over sexual orientation. Let's face it: people kill for religion; die for religion; and fuck for religion. Why wouldn't they switch genders of sex-partners for religion?

    Moreover, as Carlson (2003) noted, “It may be possible that some of [Spitzer’s] research participants might have a more fluid sexual orientation, such as bisexuality” (p. 427). Also, Spitzer’s investigationwas heavily weighted toward highly religious Christian, Caucasian, middle-class individuals, thus ignoring the diversity of individuals who might seek conversion therapy. Overall, the research on conversion therapies is heavily weighted toward a homogeneous, predominantly White, male, Christian population. Shidlo and Schroeder’s (2002) participants were 90% male, 86% Caucasian, and of those who reported religious orientation, 89% Christian. Spitzer’s study was 97% Christian and 95% Caucasian and was predominantly middle-class and middle-aged.

    Assumptions Made By Nutter Groups Like NARTH

    Religious nutbars that think they can 'cure' homosexuality assume that the causes of homosexuality are known and that homosexuality is unnatural, mentally unhealthy, and sinful and should be changed. Each of these are pseudoscientific when applied to attempts at mental health.

    Methodological problems with studies like Spitzer's

    (a) results were based on restricted, self-selected samples that represent a socially stigmatized population and thus capitalized on participants’ vested interests to manage selfimpressions, promote their values and lifestyles, overreport successes, and underreport failures;

    (b) outcomes are ambiguous because participants’ idiosyncratic conceptualizations of sexual orientation, identity, attraction, and desire were not analyzed and research variables were not well conceptualized;

    (c) some studies neglected to use fantasy and arousal to indicate sexual orientation;

    (d) some results were based on therapists’ subjective impressions;

    (e) comparison or control groups were not used;

    (f) long-term, objective outcome results are unavailable; and

    (g) dynamic factors, such as time, maturation, and contextual factors, were not analyzed to account for participants’ changes in sexuality and identity development process. Thus, the research base that supports the effectiveness of sexual reorientation is void of systematic, well-established methodologies that are needed to obtain valid scientific results (Wainberg et al., 2003).

    In addition, O’Donohue and Plaud (1994) reviewed the evidence for learning and unlearning of sexual arousal responses and concluded that the empirical support for the conditioning or reconditioning of sexual arousal is weak. Barbaree, Bogaert, and Seto (1995) also concluded that substantive changes in the direction of one’s underlying sexual orientation might be difficult or impossible to achieve once established.

    Tozer & Hayes (2004) further note that 'reorientation' therapy lacks empirical validation and also suggest that the main focus is to provide derisive messages about same-sex attractions. They found that most who seek "conversion therapy" are do so as an "expression of introjected messages about unacceptable aspects of homosexuality and an extension of one’s being in the early stages of gay or lesbian identity development."

    Woody's massive copy/paste and possible violation of Fair Use -but definately a violation of forum rules. A link would have sufficed.

    The pseudoscientific extract of Luiz Sérgio Solimeo's book Defending a Higher Law made liberal use of quotes mined from various sources sans context. Moreover, it made equally liberal use of fallacious arguments like "if homosexuality is natural, then why don't humans also engage in cannibalism or filicide? [paraphrasing]" First, it is completely fallacious to assume that because natural behaviors, instincts or acts that are common across taxa that all behaviors, instincts and acts would therefore be common. What a dumbass. Second, both cannibalism and filicide are very much a part of human history and culture. We have the added infection of religious delusion that very often causes these acts in humanity, but they are present. I won't even bother citing references to them since they are common knowledge.

    The author asserts: "Anyone engaged in the most elementary animal observation is forced to conclude that animal “homosexuality,” filicide and
    cannibalism are exceptions to normal animal behavior. Consequently, one cannot speak of them as instincts in animal nature." From here, we can safely ignore the remaining dribble from the author, since it all hinges on this assertion.

    The assertion is a mere assumption based on the hope that that which the author (and his similarly biased religious/superstitious readers) deems most dispicable in nature is abherant and therefore not instinctual. I'll ignore the obvious strawman of going down the path of filicide/cannibalism and focus on the central theme: homosexuality.

    If either are truly "exceptions" in nature, then they should be rare and not entirely predictable.

    Unfortunately for religious nutbars: (and these were from just a few journals lying around)

    Hoser (2005) noted that male-male sexual acts were common among Australian death adders.

    Van Gossum et al (2005) comment that same-sex mating attempts are common among "many animal groups" and this challenges theories of sexual selection, which predict optimization of reproductive success.

    Switzer et al (2004) agree and state that "homosexual pairing between males occurs under natural conditions in a wide variety of taxa, including many insect species." In their study group of Japanese beetles, they discovered that "[m]ale–male pairs were found in 30 of the 65 collection periods, with an average of 0.85 § 0.12 male–male pairs (3.4%) of 25 collected pairs (range, 0–3 pairs). In 3 years of sampling,we found that male Japanese beetles occasionally formed homosexual pairs in the field, with male–male pairs constituting approximately 1–6% of the pairs."

    Bertran & Margalida (2003) found male-male mountings to be very common in polyandrous bearded vulture Gypaetus barbatus trios. In 167 copulation attempts recorded between 1991–1992 and 2000–2001, the percentage of male-male mountings recorded were 26.1 and 11.4%, respectively.

    And lest you think I'm omitting the data that exists on primates (our own suborder, Anthropoidea, no less), allow me to include O'Neill et al (2004) who state, "examples of same-sex mating behaviors have been widely reported across anthropoid species, and such behaviors have been observed in every family of primates except prosimians."

    Solimeo was right to point out those quotes which remind us that applying human behavioral characteristics to other animals is a foolish endeavor. This is obvious. We can't possibly know their psychology since we're unable to ask them with the expectation of receiving an answer. But he was flat out wrong in asserting that homosexual behvaviors do not exist in nature in anything but a common and predictable manner. These behaviors may have their causes in many places: genetics, kin selection, aggression prevention, aggression management, pleasure, politics, etc. The quote-mined sources of Solimeo notwithstanding, there are observations of primate species that appear to fulfill each of these causes at one time or another.

    But the fact remains: male-male and female-female sex exists in nature with frequency and regularity and across many taxa.


    References:

    Religious Brainwashing Portion

    Barbaree, H. E., Bogaert, A. F., & Seto, M. C. (1995). Sexual reorientation therapy for pedophiles: Practices and controversies. In L. D. & R. D. McAnulty (Eds.), The psychology of sexual orientation, behavior, and identity: A handbook (pp. 357-383).Westport, CT: Greenwood.

    Carlson, H. M. (2003). A methodological critique of Spitzer’s research on reparative therapy. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 32, 425-427.

    Haldeman, D. C. (2001). Therapeutic antidotes: Helping gay and bisexualmen recover from conversion therapies. Journal of Gay and Lesbian Psychotherapy, 5(3-4), 117-130.

    Moberly, Elizabeth (1983) Homosexuality: A New Christian Ethic. Cambridge: James Clarke Company

    O’Donohue, W., & Plaud, J. J. (1994). The conditioning of human sexual arousal. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 23, 321-344.

    Shidlo, A., & Schroeder,M. (2002). Changing sexual orientation: A consumers’ report. Professional Psychology: Research and Practice, 33, 249-259.

    Spitzer, R. L. (2003). Can some gay men and lesbians change their sexual orientation? 200 subjects reporting a change from homosexual to heterosexual orientation. Archives of Sexual
    Behavior, 32, 403-417.

    Tozer, E. E. & Hayes, J. A. (2004). Why do individuals seek conversion therapy? The role of religiosity, internalized homonegativity, and identity development. The Counseling Psychologist, 32(5), 716-740.

    Wainberg, M. L., Bux, B., Carballo-Dieguez, A., Dowsett, G.W., Dugan, T., Forstein, M., et al. (2003). Science and the Nuremberg Code: A question of ethics and harm. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 32, 455-457.

    Homosexuality in Nature Portion

    Hoser, Raymond (2005). Australian death adders in drag. Why being a he/she may help in the race to reproduce. Herptile 30(4), 139-143.

    Van Gossum, H. ; De Bruyn, L.; Stoks, R. (2005). Reversible switches between male-male and male-female mating behaviour by male damselflies
    Biology Letters 1(3), 268-270.

    O'Neill, Ann C.; Fedigan, Linda M.; Ziegler, Toni E. (2004) Ovarian cycle phase and same-sex mating behavior in Japanese macaque females
    American Journal of Primatology 63(1), 25-31.

    Switzer, Paul V.; Forsythe, Patrick S.; Escajeda, Kara; Kruse, Kipp C.
    (2004). Effects of environmental and social conditions on homosexual pairing in the Japanese beetle (Popillia japonica Newman). Journal of Insect Behavior 17(1), 1-16.

    Bertran, Joan; Margalida, Antoni (2003). Male-male mountings in polyandrous bearded vultures Gypaetus barbatus: An unusual behaviour in raptors. Journal of Avian Biology, 34(4), 334-338.
     
  10. Woody Musical Creationist Registered Senior Member

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    2,419
    SW said,

    Go ahead and run to your ignorant paper resources pandered by the pro-gay political community at the expense of the people that want and need help. This is a tragedy that is truly worthy of condemnation -- people are forced into accepting feelings they don't want by the likes of you. You don't believe homosexuals can be helped because you can't help them. It is your own personal failure as a counselor.

    But the real fact I'm referrring to is that some (ex-gays) are now in the ministry of Christian churches and they are running support groups for other ex-gays that have re-oriented.

    FACT: How do you explain people that are ex-gay and need a support group?

    FACT: How do you explain people that are ex-gay, and now in church.

    FACT: How do you explain the ex-gay movement?

    FACT: How do you explain this lady, that says you are clearly a liar. Talk to her. She is a real person:

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    Linda Wall
    She participates in the ex-gay lobby. How do you explain that?

    Your white papers are meaningless in the face of real people that have made the change, some of whom I know personally.

    You will never, ever, change my mind about it.

    You obviously aren't reading the links, and I'm tired of doing your homework for you. There is plenty of evidence that you are clearly WRONG, and I'm tired of arguing with a brainwashed liberal nutter that tows the politically correct line.

    Nobody is saying it is easy to re-orient, but that it can be done. The human mind is capable of achieving any goal in a nurturing environment. It is hard to imagine a nurturing environment around yourself.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2006
  11. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,199
    Woody,

    But why change orientation? What's wrong with being Gay?
     
  12. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

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    5,874
    Woody, I did your homework for you! Your links are garbage (I actually clicked on some of them). None point directly to peer-reviewed or empirically conducted studies.

    Your posts are full of homophobic nonsense (and I *did* notice your attempt to poison that well by adding a pseudo-definition for homophobic from the religious nutter site) and bigotry rather than any form of science. Posting a list of anecdotes proves only one fact: that religious delusions can be more profound than one's sexual orientation.

    No mystery there. As I said, people kill, die and fuck for religion. Why wouldn't we expect them to give up their sexual identies.

    As I also said, the religious nutters that try to "convert" or "reorient" gays do so under premises that have yet to be established: that homosexuality is abherent; unnatural; a choice; etc.

    The religious nut-jobs that claim to "reorient" gays are working with pseudoscience. Its as simple as that.

    I asked for some simple citations to works that supported their hypothesis and you couldn't even do that -I supplied that work for you! It would seem that it is you that isn't reading your sites, Woody.

    Finally, I notice you using my vernacular in further attempts to poison the well, calling me a "brainwashed" and "nutter." Sorry, Woody. The "you-were-first" argument only works in 1st grade. Perhaps through 8th in southern states.

    By the way, here's a couple of links so your posts don't get deleted:

    http://www.narth.com/menus/positionstatements.html
    http://www.narth.com/menus/myths.html
    http://www.narth.com/docs/animalmyth.html
    http://www.narth.com/docs/opp.html

    (just me doing your homework for you).
     
  13. Woody Musical Creationist Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,419
    SW said:

    Define homophobic.

    I agree, religious meditation is more powerful than one's sexual orientation. Call it delusion if you wish, but it work's just fine.

    If they want to change, is that ok with you?

    Yes, there are many religious "nutters"that believe that. Then there are people like yourself that believe sexual behavior can not be altered period. Who is doing the greater dis-service, the one that says they have to change or the one that says they can't change? Shouldn't the patient be allowed to make that choice for his/herself?

    It wasn't called pseudoscience until the gay movement came along. Before 1973, homosexual men received reparative therapy that didn't give a rat's ass about religion, according to Dr.Spitzer. In 1973 Dr. Spitzer made the recommendation to remove homosexuality from the APA's list of mental disorders at the request of gay activists. Why don't you read his interview concerning reparative therapy? It should be a real eye-opener for you.

    In short a mental disorder is defined as follows: Can the patient function in society, and does the patient want the behavior? If either answer is "no", then it is considered a mental disorder. Society has moved to accept the homosexual, but if a patient doesn't want homosexual feelings, then it is called a mental disorder. A homosexual that's ok with their orientation does not have a mental disorder under this rubic. It's all a matter of the patient's perspective, not mine or yours.

    It is no longer a hypothesis, Dr. Spitzer has proven that reparative therapy can work at least on some segment of the human homosexual population. If you believe homosexual orientation is immutable for all homosexuals, you are mistaken.

    Here is the link on the study he performed. It is unfortunate that ex-gays had to picket the APA before any of them would even consider their cause. A real tragedy of politics before the patient I must say, quite shameful, indeed reprehensible. Fortunately Dr. Spitzer was open-minded enough to consider the patient as he did in 1973.

    Spitzer's Technical Paper on Sexual Re-orientation Therapy Effectiveness


    Actually I was hearing the terminology before you were even born, or perhaps you were in diapers. In the early 70's we called liberals "nuts" and "brainwashed". The vernacular has been in use for a long time, like pre-WWII. About the same amount of time liberals have been on the scene I might add. Check it out in a dictionary. BTW, aren't you in Texas?

    So tell me Skinwalker, is it an absurd idea to provide patients with sexual re-orientation therapy ? Are you prepared to make a fool of yourself?
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2006
  14. wsionynw Master Queef Valued Senior Member

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    1,309
    WOODY!! Mate, go easy on your keyboard, that bad boy must be on fire!
    A few questions for you:

    1. Why do you care if people are homosexual?
    2. Why would a homosexual wish to change their sexual orientation?
    3. Do you have any homosexual friends or family that want to reorientate?

    Thanks in advance for answering my questions.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  15. General_Paul Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
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    Yeah man, Woody this is some of the most screwed up anti-gay rhetoric that I have heard outside of a Southern Baptist anti-gay rally. How's this for you then-

    John 13:34- A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another;
    as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

    John 3:11- For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we
    should love one another.

    Peter 2:17- Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

    John 4:7- Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one
    that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

    John 4:20- If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar:
    for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he
    love God whom he hath not seen?

    There ya go Woody, three quotes from your divine book, all preaching brotherley love and acceptance. So, your anti-gay preach-fest went against the word of god. Congrats Woody, technically, you can burn in hell for what you just posted!
     
  16. Woody Musical Creationist Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,419
    1) I believe many of them want and need help. I'll be honest when I say I have a religious opinion on the subject, but I don't have a right to make somebody else's decision for them.

    2) According to DR. Spitzer, the primary reason for their wish to change is emotional disatisfaction with same sex relationships, followed by religious beliefs. This becomes especially apparant as they grow older.

    3) No I do not, but I have known people that made the change. If you read Dr. Spitzer's work you'll find that many adolescents are confused about their sexual orientation, but typically go heterosexual as time goes on. It's pretty obvious to me that behaviour is age dependent, and behavior can be changed --maybe not so obvious to others though.
     
  17. wsionynw Master Queef Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,309
    Woody. Clear answers, thank you. Now then to the really big question!
    Do you honestly believe that all homosexuals will burn in hell when they die?
    Thanks again.
     
  18. Woody Musical Creationist Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,419
    GP said:

    I never heard of a SB anti-gay rally. Did you make that up? When and where was it held under the auspices of the Soutern Baptist organization? The SB church I used to go to must have boycotted it. :m:

    Perhaps you wish I would burn in hell. I don't feel that way about you though.
     
  19. Woody Musical Creationist Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,419

    I believe all unrepentent sinners will be there, and it's not what I want for them.
     
  20. General_Paul Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    36
    No, I never said I wished you'd burn in hell. However Woody, you have yet to argue against the quotes that I posted.
     
  21. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

    Messages:
    5,874
    Homophobic: fear of homosexuality; exhibited mostly by religious nutbars who buy into the silly rhetoric of their cult leaders.

    Some folks have asked some very good questions that you've failed to answer:

    1. Why do you care if people are homosexual?
    2. Why would a homosexual wish to change their sexual orientation?
    3. Do you have any homosexual friends or family that want to reorientate?

    I've asked: where's the empirical data that support the notion that people need reorientation or that it even works? Spitzer's research was flawed (I noted these earlier) but I agree his work wasn't "pseudoscience." It was simply bad science.

    The "work" that groups like NARTH claim to do *is* pseudoscience, however, since they base it on false premises and assumptions. Moreover, they use bad science and refuse to acknowledge the lack of empirical data to support their premises and assumptions. In doing so, they wrap their supernatural beliefs in a thin veil of "scientific-sounding" terminology and misquoted research of others.

    If gays want to pretend to be heterosexual to fit into their other social groups and cults, I've no problem with that. That's their problem. But when pseudoscientific assholes like the people at NARTH make claims that are unsubstantiated and based on false premises and assumptions, its called fraud.

    These religious nutbars are conartists and fraudsters. They're pseudoscience nutters. And they seek only to promote/defend their own silly cult rather than genuinely care about people.

    And you, who support them, are either ignorant, stupid, or homophobic. Or a combination of two or all three.

    Regardless, your rhetoric is tiring and obviously bigoted.
     
  22. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,936
    May God curse all left handed people in their evil lifestyle choice.
     
  23. General_Paul Registered Senior Member

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    36
    Well, I can proudly say that I shut Woody down with my use of quotes from the sermon on the mount! w00t w00t, go brotherly love!
     

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