Path of Least Resistance

[Jenyar]

But isn't the motivation to eventually achieve context-independence, or at least to make your decisions perfectly "objectively" according to right action, rather than habitual past or desired future? In that sense the person would be context-dependent (how else?) but he actions and decisions would (ideally) not be.

Although I see your problem with that: actions and decisions are already reactions to a context. The very need for them presupposes a context. And action in turn establishes context (in the karmic sense). But who perceives the context, and who decides what the right (re)action is? That brings me back to my question: Is being responsible only to yourself the same as personal responsibility, or is there accountability involved?

Further to water's understanding of the soul being an absolute, context-independent identity, that would raise the same question. I think the difference between the soul and its karmic counterpart is that the former depends on God's action, while the latter depends on human action. Neither would exist without a physical context.

[perplexity]

But isn't the motivation to eventually achieve context-independence, or at least to make your decisions perfectly "objectively" according to right action, rather than habitual past or desired future? In that sense the person would be context-dependent (how else?) but he actions and decisions would (ideally) not be.

That is an idea, which may be a motivation, depending upon your context, your love of abstraction, if that is what turns you on.

Motivation comes from the heart. It is in the blood that flows around your veins.

Cue the Beatles,

"He's a real nowhere Man,
Sitting in his Nowhere Land,
Making all his nowhere plans
for nobody.

Doesn't have a point of view,
Knows not where he's going to,
Isn't he a bit like you and me?
Nowhere Man, please listen,
You don't know what you're missing,
Nowhere Man, the world is at your command.

He's as blind as he can be,
Just sees what he wants to see,
Nowhere Man can you see me at all?
Nowhere Man, don't worry,
Take your time, don't hurry,
Leave it all till somebody else
lends you a hand.

etc.

Further to water's understanding of the soul being an absolute, context-independent identity, that would raise the same question. I think the difference between the soul and its karmic counterpart is that the former depends on God's action, while the latter depends on human action. Neither would exist without a physical context.

I don't see these distinctions. A Buddhist theist would just as well suppose that God works through karma, that grace is a karmic effect, or whatever.
If you postulate karma then something presumably has to own the karma, but why worry? Better not to get lost in the detail.

---- Ron.

[Jenyar]

I don't see these distinctions. A Buddhist theist would just as well suppose that God works through karma, that grace is a karmic effect, or whatever.
If you postulate karma then something presumably has to own the karma, but why worry? Better not to get lost in the detail.

That's arguably because the problem of accountability would be resolved when God is brought into the picture. With external judgement, the possibility of grace (or from a Buddhist perspective, premature grace) becomes possible. It's still the difference between what you do and what God does. Let details be details .

[perplexity]

That's arguably because the problem of accountability would be resolved when God is brought into the picture. With external judgement, the possibility of grace (or from a Buddhist perspective, premature grace) becomes possible. It's still the difference between what you do and what God does. Let details be details .

If I am at ease with my conduct, then where is the issue with the possibility of Judgement?

If God wants to call me to account on some future occasion then he should have blessed me with a better memory.

--- Ron.

[Jenyar]

If I am at ease with my conduct, then where is the issue with the possibility of Judgement?

But that's been my question: is only being repsonsible to yourself the same as personal responsibility? Is having a clear conscience the same as being innocent? There doesn't have to be fear of judgement, by no means, but it does seem to come down to whether there is actual accountability or not.

If God wants to call me to account on some future occasion then he should have blessed me with a better memory.

I would say as with karma, that future occassion is always right now.

[perplexity]

But that's been my question: is only being repsonsible to yourself the same as personal responsibility? Is having a clear conscience the same as being innocent? There doesn't have to be fear of judgement, by no means, but it does seem to come down to whether there is actual accountability or not.

Believers crave the Final Judgement because a fair trial is so hard to come by on Earth.

I like to know what I am up to, what my own intentions are, and because of that I try to follow the plot. From time to time this then comes in handy if somebody else takes an interest, but in my experience people aren't all too happy to listen to the reasons why one did this or that, so it eventually does seem to be a good idea to stop worrying why this or that, if nobody wants to know anyway. A sort of why bother laziness eventually sets in.

Otherwise I believe in innocence as spontaneity, the courage to be what one is and to speak exactly as one thinks. It took me a good deal of practice to achieve this, but once into the habit I find it wonderfully conducive to clearing the conscience. The mind tangles up and festers when thoughts are kept indoors to make mischief amongst each other. Let out into the ether they're that much easier to deal with.

Better the Devil you know, as they say, and who is to blame me for what I am, as I am?

Better for the World to resist me than for me to resist myself.

I would say as with karma, that future occassion is always right now.

Jenyar the Buddha!

Pleased to meet you.

--- Ron.

[S.A.M.]

Otherwise I believe in innocence as spontaneity, the courage to be what one is and to speak exactly as one thinks. It took me a good deal of practice to achieve this, but once into the habit I find it wonderfully conducive to clearing the conscience. The mind tangles up and festers when thoughts are kept indoors to make mischief amongst each other. Let out into the ether they're that much easier to deal with.

This is very interesting. I already suffer from spontaneity, to the point of indiscretion, even; but I agree with you, its hard to keep thoughts in specially when the tendency is to say exactly what you think or feel.

Makes life uncomfortable for other people though

[perplexity]

This is very interesting. I already suffer from spontaneity, to the point of indiscretion, even; but I agree with you, its hard to keep thoughts in specially when the tendency is to say exactly what you think or feel.

Makes life uncomfortable for other people though

And for me, for contrary to the version that some would have of it, there is not much by way of comfort to be had from the discomfort of others, but what then is the comfort for?

How much comfort is there to be had from the delusion of hypocrisy? The truths come out eventually, one way or another and I'd rather get it over with. If the truth is not given then it is not to be had in honest return, so the loss is doubled.

Better in the long term to seek the security of a spoken truth, better than the ill ease of wondering what sort of terror lurks behind a false facade. The truth sets free, better to be trusted than the wiles and guiles of diplomacy and flattery.

--- Ron.

[Jenyar]

samcdkey, you're a Muslim, correct? I enjoy your posts immensely.

[Cyperium]

Cyperium

Is this carcasm?

ok, I understand this a bit, but not really. By carcasm you mean sarcasm right? It's kind of sarcastic I guess, but I don't see how. I would like to though, but I think sarcasm is bad, if used incorrectly that is...

Were you refering to me?
yes, you were right indeed, my thoughts, MY, thoughts, spanned from one analysis, and then were infurated as it took my thinking I was stupid.

I don't get really what you are saying here... Infurated means something I'm sure, but I don't seem to catch on to the context. It may be if you wanna know, that you influenced my wording there, when I used the word 'profound' cause I read your post and it was interesting... however, that *may* have been *after* I posted that post...so I guess that could mean it is impossible to be influenced by, but I think we could get influenced by future events so that really doesn't hold water either.

Either way, it don't have to keep going.
What do ya say?
PM me please, or I will you.

Sure. Then please explain what you mean, I PM you soon.