Proof The Bible is True

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by bdmart, Jan 29, 2002.

  1. bdmart Registered Member

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    BIBLE PROPHECY

    CONVINCING PROOF THAT GOD EXISTS

    The Bible is a most remarkable book. Its account of the origin of evil; its unparalleled record of God's dealings with the nation of Israel; its searching message through their prophets; its "good news" proclaimed by Jesus Christ and his apostles; above all, its unerring analysis of the weaknesses of human nature and its contrasting portrayal of the holiness, the truth and the mercy of God, made especially plain in the person of His Son - all these are outstanding features found in no other book in the world. They prompted Henry Rogers over l00 years ago to declare: "The Bible is not such a book as man would have written if he could, nor could have written if he would."( In The Superhuman Origin of the Bible Deduced from Itself.) In other words, God is needed to explain its existence.

    In this short work we shall consider one of the Bible's unique features: its prophecy. Now strictly prophecy is not just foretelling the future. A prophet was one who "spoke for" another, a spokesman; and prophecy was the message the prophet spoke on behalf of God. But since Bible prophecy contains quite a lot of "prediction", or foretelling future events, for our purpose here we shall take the term in that sense.

    Who has the Power of Prophecy?

    But first we must settle an important question: Does the Bible claim that the power of prophecy belongs only to God and is a proof of His authority?

    To this there is a decisive answer in the prophecy of Isaiah. In the 41st chapter God challenges the idols and the idol worshippers of the day to prove that they possess divine powers. This is how He does it:

    "Produce your cause, saith the Lord; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob, Let them (the idols) bring them, (the reasons) forth, and declare unto us what shall happen: declare ye the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; and shew us things to come ..." (vv.21-22,R.V.).

    The basis of this challenge is clear: the pagan worshippers claim that their idols are gods. Very well; let them produce the proofs. And the proofs demanded by God Himself are that the idols shall announce future events, and also declare "the former things", that is, explain how creation took place in the beginning. The point is made crystal clear in the next verse:

    "Declare the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods ..." (v.23).

    Here God Himself is asserting that to be able to foretell the future would be a proof of Divine power. More than once in this part of Isaiah's prophecy, God declares that He is the only one who has this power, for only He is God; there is no other:

    "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God , and there is none like me ..." (46:9)

    The God of Israel is here declaring that there is no other worthy object of worship but Himself; and goes on to assert the signs of His power in these terms:

    ". . . declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" (46:10).

    Come to think of it, whoever would dare to say, "My counsel shall stand . . ." -except God? What man is there in the whole world who could say any such thing? To carry it out needs Someone who not only knows future events before they happen, but has the power to see that they take place as He has decreed. In other words, to utter prophecy which will inevitably come true, you need God. No other cause can explain it.

    The New Testament makes the same claim. When Jesus was about to leave his disciples, he promised them the help of the Holy Spirit in their task of preaching the Gospel in the world. One of the effects of this gift was to be: "He shall declare unto you the things that are to come" (John 16:13); in other words, the disciples were to be given a knowledge of future events. It is certainly implied that without the special gift they could not have done this. Their ability to declare the future was to be an evidence of the Divine power they had been granted.

    Again, in the last book of the Bible, chapter 1, verse 1, it is declared that God gave to Jesus Christ a revelation, "to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly come to pass . . ." (Revelation 1:1) . The knowledge of the future came from God through Jesus; without that revelation, His servants could have known nothing of it.

    The conclusion is clear: the Bible says quite definitely that the power to foretell the future belongs to God alone.

    Does the Bible foretell the Future?

    Well, we have only to examine history and our own experience to realise that men of themselves have no knowledge at all of the future. Why, we do not even know what will happen to us tonight, or tomorrow on our way to work, let alone next year; or of what will happen to the world in l00 years, to say nothing of in 2000 years! If men had the slightest knowledge of the future, how many decisions would have been different! How many accidents would have been avoided! How many disasters would never have been allowed to take place! How many wars would never have been started! The experience of our own lives and of the history of men both convince us that mankind has no sure knowledge at all of what is yet to be.

    But suppose the future has been foretold, not once, but many times? And always in the same book, the Bible, and in no other book in the world? Ought not that to make us sit up and take notice? That is why we say that the prophecies of the Bible are most important; they deserve to be carefully examined, for a great deal depends on them,. They are a striking sign that there exists in the world a Power greater than mankind.

    "Yes, but . . ."

    Those who do not believe that the Bible is the word of God do not like its prophecy at all. Once grant that it has correctly foretold the future and you have gone a long way to admitting the existence of God. So they try to explain it away. "The prophecies", they say, "were not really forecasts of the future at all- they were written after the events `foretold`"

    Now this argument can only be made to appear to have any force if you can prove that the Bible documents, especially those of the Old Testament, were written a long time after the events they claim to foretell. It must be stated clearly that they have no direct evidence for this; the conclusion is the result of interpreting the evidence to support their own theorising. As a matter of fact, all the research of the last 100 years tends to show that the Bible documents are authentic: they really do belong to the age in which they claim to be written.

    But there is a short cut in this matter which will do very well for our present purpose. No one can deny that the Old Testament documents were in existence by about 200 BC, because they were being translated into Greek (in what is called the Septuagint Version of the Old Testament) about then, and you cannot translate something that is not there!

    Another objection is to say, "Well, these Bible `prophecies` are really clever political forecasts by people who could interpret the events of their day and their likely outcome."

    "Clever political forecasts", issued in the centuries before Christ and remaining true for over 2000 years to the present day? What sort of wizards do they imagine the Bible prophets were to be able to accomplish such feats? Merely to state the matter thus is to show how utterly improbable such an explanation of their words would be.

    But the surest answer to this objection, as to all others, is to read some of the prophecies themselves. So we begin with

    PROPHECY CONCERNING BABYLON

    In the days of the prophets of Israel (850-560 BC approximately) two great military powers arose in the territory around the Euphrates and the Tigris rivers, now known as Iraq. The earlier was the Empire of Assyria, with Nineveh as its capital. During two centuries the Assyrians carried out invasions of the territory of surrounding nations: southwards they dominated the Chaldeans and their capital, Babylon; eastwards they overran Syria, then advanced down the Mediterranean coast, through Israel as far as Egypt. Their policy was one of terror. Their aim was to terrorise local populations into submitting and paying an annual tribute. To this end they sacked and burnt towns, devastated the countryside, massacred the inhabitants and took thousands away captive to Assyria.

    The second half of the 7th century BC saw the decline of Assyrian power and the rise of the Babylonian. In 612 BC Nineveh was conquered. Nebuchadnezzar, king of the Chaldeans, rapidly created the new empire. The smaller nations of the Middle East, rejoicing over their deliverance from Assyria, soon found themselves overrun by the armies of Babylon.

    In particular Nebuchadnezzar overran Israel, sacked Jerusalem and burnt its temple, and carried thousands away captive to Babylon. He then went further south and invaded Egypt. The Babylonian Empire was the second phase of this military domination arising from the area of the Euphrates.

    In particular, Nebuchadnezzar, its greatest king, made the city of Babylon a marvel in the world of the Near East. He built enormous temples and palaces, and surrounded the city with an immense protective wall. Babylon became the glory and pride both of Nebuchadnezzar himself and his Chaldean people.

    It is difficult for us in these days to realise the impact of such ruthless power and extravagant wealth upon the inhabitants of the smaller nations. To them the empires of Assyria and Babylon must have seemed terrifying and invincible.

    Utterly Overthrown

    Yet l00 years before Babylon reached the height of its power, Isaiah the prophet foretold its overthrow in very specific terms. In a chapter headed "The burden of Babylon", this is what he said

    ". . . The day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty . . . Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them . . . And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldeans` pride, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. It shall never be inhabited . . . neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there, neither shall shepherds make their flocks to lie down there. But wild beasts of the deserts shall lie there" (Isaiah 13:6, l7, 19-21).

    The fate of Babylon is clear; the attackers are to be the Medes (a nation to the east of Babylon) ; the city is to become a desolation, inhabited by neither man nor beast. And let us remind ourselves that this clear prophecy was uttered 100 years before Babylon arose to the height of its power and glory.

    Another prophet, Jeremiah, writing 100 years later, when Nebuchadnezzar was about to attack Jerusalem, added to the forecasts of Babylon's downfall:

    "Behold, I will raise up against Babylon a destroying wind . . . Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed . . . Prepare against (Babylon) the nations, with the kings of the Medes . . . Babylon shall become heaps (ruins), a dwellingplace for jackals, an astonishment and an hissing, without inhabitant . . . The broad walls of Babylon shall be utterly overthrown, and her high gates shall be burned with fire . . . O Lord, thou hast spoken against this place to cut it off, that none shall dwell therein, neither man nor beast, but it shall be desolate for ever . . ."

    And finally the prophet is commanded to bind a stone to the roll of the prophecy and to throw it into the river Euphrates, declaring,

    "Thus shall Babylon sink, and shall not rise again . . ." (Jeremiah 51:1,8,28,37,58,62-64).

    The agreement between the prophecies of Isaiah, written 100 years before Babylon arose to power, and of Jeremiah, written when the empire and city were at the height of their glory, is complete. To the people of those days it must have sounded as it would to us if it were prophesied that a great city like London, New York or Sydney was to be destroyed and to remain a desolation for ever. In this age of nuclear weapons such a fate would not be inconceivable; but the prophets of Israel uttered their predictions over 2500 years ago, long before anyone dreamed that such total destruction was possible.

    History reveals how the prophecies about the fate of Babylon were progressively fulfilled. The first despoilers were the Medes and the Persians in the 6th century BC From that time the glory of Babylon began to fade. Then came the Greeks under Alexander the Great, then the Romans; after them various warlike tribes like the Parthians, the Arabs and the Tartars. For centuries the actual site of the ancient city of Babylon was a heap of ruins, shunned - so travellers tell us - by wandering nomads. It was not until the archaeologists began to explore the site in the first half of the 19th century that the ruins of the great walls, the mighty temples and gates, and the immense statues revealed to an astonished world how magnificent ancient Babylon must have appeared in its day.

    So history reveals how Babylon, "the glory of kingdoms", became ruined and deserted, just as the prophets of Israel said it would.

    We turn now to a second, and quite different, example of the truth of Bible prophecy in

    THE FATE OF EGYPT

    Egypt had also been a mighty power in the Middle East. The period of its greatness was about 1600 BC, when the armies of the conquering Pharaohs pressed southwards into the Sudan, westwards along the north African coast, and northwards through the land of Canaan (later Israel) and into Syria. The discovery of some of the ancient temples, monuments and tombs of Egypt has revealed the glory of the Pharaohs at the height of their power.

    But from about 1400 BC Egyptian power began to decline, due to civil war and to the rise of Assyria, and later Babylon. Nevertheless, during the period of Israel's occupation of the land of Canaan, 1400-600 BC, the Egyptians interfered periodically in the politics of the Middle East, with varying success. The Israelites, fearing invasion from the Assyrians or Babylonians, were often tempted to seek support from Egypt instead of relying in faith upon their God.

    Now the prophets of Israel had something very definite to say about the destiny of the Egyptians. The prophet Ezekiel, whose pronouncements were made in the days of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, from about 600 BC declared that as a result of the judgement of God Egypt was to be desolate for 40 years. Then there was to be a revival, but not to the former glory and power:

    "Thus saith the Lord God: at the end of forty years will I gather the Egyptians from the peoples whither they were scattered . . . and will cause them to return to the land of Pathros [in upper Egypt, the original seat of Egyptian power], into the land of their birth; and they shall be there a base kingdom (RSV, a lowly kingdom). It shall be the basest of the kingdoms; neither shall it exalt itself any more above the nations: and I will diminish them, that they shall no more rule over the nations . . . Thus saith the Lord God: I will also destroy the idols and will cause the images to cease out of Noph (Memphis); and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt . .." (Ezekiel 29:13-15; 30:13).

    Again the sense of the prophecy is clear: Egypt was to suffer the calamities of invasion and the deportation of captives. Although no precise historical record of these events has survived, they must have been the result of the invasion of Egypt by the Babylonians, as Ezekiel himself prophesied (see Ezekiel 30:17-20). But that was not to be the end of Egypt. For after 40 years the captives were to return to their own land. Egypt as a kingdom was not to be destroyed: it was to survive but with greatly reduced power - "a lowly kingdom", never presuming to exert power over the surrounding nations any more.

    A Lowly Kingdom

    And so it came to pass. From about 600 BC Egypt fell under the domination of a succession of conquering invaders: first the Babylonians in the 6th century BC; then the Persians, from the 6th to the 4th centuries; then the Greeks in the 4th century; then the Romans from the lst century BC to the 5th century AD They were followed by the Arabs and the Turks from the 7th century AD onwards. Even the British ruled in Egypt for a period in the 19th century. For 2500 years Egypt has remained, as Ezekiel prophesied it would, "a lowly kingdom", always dominated by others. But Egypt and the Egyptians did not disappear. They still exist, and they have even recovered a measure of independence in recent times, thanks to massive financial support from the U.S.A. and Saudi Arabia.

    Let us store the case of Egypt away in our minds while we consider a third example of Bible prediction of future events, in

    THE PROPHECIES CONCERNING ISRAEL

    These are the richest of all, both in the detail of their predictions and in the abundance of the historical confirmation of their truth. We shall confine ourselves to the simple facts concerning Israel's remarkable destiny.

    The Old Testament records for us how God made distinct promises to Abraham (about 1800 B.C) which meant, among other things, that his descendants would become a people (Israel) who would take possession of the land of Canaan, later called Palestine. About 1400 BC the people of Israel were brought out of Egypt at the Exodus under Moses, and 40 years after began to take possession of the land promised to them. But while they were still in the wilderness, before they entered the land, they were solemnly warned by God through Moses of the fate which would overtake them if they turned away from their God to worship idols and imitated the ways of the pagan Canaanites. The 28th chapter of Deuteronomy is a most remarkable prophecy - and was a terrible warning - of the calamities which would come upon the Israelites if they were disobedient. The reader is recommended to read the whole chapter for himself. Here we have space only to outline the main features:

    "But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all his commandments . . . the Lord shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known . . . And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all the nations whither the Lord shall lead thee . . . The Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even to the other . . . And among these nations shalt thou find no ease . . ." (Deuteronomy 28:15, 36-37,64-65).

    Again the prophecy is quite clear. Israel were to be scattered among the nations, there to live in very uncomfortable circumstances, the object of scorn and contempt. How forcibly their history has proved the truth of these words! The scattering of the Jews throughout the world began in the days of the Assyrians in the 8th century BC The process continued through the Babylonians in the 6th century. After a partial return from Babylon in the days of the Persian kings, a community of Israelites lived in their land from about 500 BC to the days of Christ, successively dominated by the Persians, the Greeks and their successors, and finally by the Romans. In AD 70, 40 years after the crucifixion of Christ, there occurred the most terrible devastation of all. The city of Jerusalem was sacked by Roman armies because of rebellion; the temple was burned and the Jews were scattered as captives over the Roman world. There they have been found ever since, literally "from one end of the earth to the other".

    And they have indeed, until very recent times, found "no ease". Suffering persecution and at times extermination- the pogroms in Russia in the 19th century and Hitler's policy of genocide in the 20th are only the most recent examples - the Jews have everywhere been subject to vilification and derision, so much so that their survival as a recognisable race is one of the marvels of history. Again we note the fact that this prophecy of Israel's fate has remained true for over 2500 years. Who could have foreseen that, despite all the scattering and the persecutions, the Jews would remain for centuries a recognisably distinct race, right up to the present day?

    But there is more . . .

    But the most incredible feature of the prophecies about the destiny of Israel is yet to be told, for the prophets also clearly foretell an unexpected change in Israel's fortunes.

    Consider, for instance, these predictions through the prophet Jeremiah, delivered nearly 600 years before Christ:

    "For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah . . . and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it" (30:3)

    "Now therefore thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel . . . Behold, I will gather them out of all the countries, whither I have driven them, in mine anger . . . and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely: and they shall be my people and I will be their God . . ." (32:36-38)

    "I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them as at the first. And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity . . ." (33:7).

    Again, there is no doubt about what the prophet is saying. The process of Israel's scattering and persecution is to be reversed. The Jews are to return to the very land from which they were expelled over 1900 years ago, and to dwell there in comparative peace. The three brief quotations from Jeremiah, given above, could be multiplied many times over by similar declarations from Isaiah and Ezekiel.

    We have little need to go into great detail to show how these prophecies of Israel's restoration have been most accurately fulfilled. The Zionist Movement was active among the dispersed Jews in many countries in the late 19th century. The establishment of Palestine as a National Home for the Jews in 1917 led to a rapid increase in their numbers in the Land. When this provoked the hostility of the Arabs, the Jews fought off an attempt to suppress them in 1948, and established their own Jewish State. This was enlarged in 1967 after a second attempt in the Six Day War; as a result Israel recovered much of their ancient historical territory, and Jerusalem became the capital of their State under their own rule, for the first time in 2500 years. In short, the emergence of an independent Jewish State in the Middle East has been a most unexpected development. Less that 100 years ago no political observers would have thought it possible.

    We are not here concerned with the "politics" of the situation. We are concerned solely with Bible prophecy. There are other things the Bible has to say about the Jews. The prophets tell us, for instance, that there is to be a great crisis in the Middle East, and that Israel will be brought to repentance before their God. Only then will the prophecies of final restoration and peace come to pass. Here we wish solely to emphasise that the prophets foretold the return of Israel to their land, and we in this century have actually seen their predictions begin to the fulfilled.

    THREE PROPHECIES-THREE DESTINIES

    It will be useful at this point to summarise what we have reviewed:

    Babylon, that great power in the Middle East, was to lose its empire and its magnificent capital city was to become a site of desolate ruins, shunned by man and beast. And so it came to pass.

    Egypt , also a great empire , was to remain a recognisable kingdom. The Egyptians were to continue to inhabit their own land. But they would be constantly dominated by other powers, remaining "a lowly kingdom". And so they have been.

    The fate of Israel was not to be like either of these. Scattered from their own land into other countries, and suffering severe persecutions and constant contempt, they were to return to the very land from which they were scattered, and to establish themselves there once again.

    Let us note carefully the following facts:

    The prophecies concerning these nations were uttered about 2500 years ago.

    Their truth has been demonstrated in history right up to the present day.

    The three cases quoted concern three different powers with three entirely different fates. One was to disappear into oblivion; the second was to remain, but be subject to other nations; the third was to be destroyed, its people expelled and scattered all over the earth, and yet eventually to be restored in the original land.

    These are not "political forecasts" of clever political observers, but accurate predictions.

    Who could have known?

    How is prophecy on this scale of time possible? There is only one reasonable answer: somebody must have known beforehand. But who could have known Certainly no men of 2500 years ago, or indeed since, could possibly have known. On purely human grounds these prophecies are inexplicable. But then, the prophets of the Old Testament did not claim human powers for their predictions. They said they were speaking words inspired by God. "Thus saith the Lord" is the constant introduction to what they say. If God was behind what they said, we realise who it was who "knew". There is no other reasonable explanation. The prophecies we have considered require the existence of God as their Author. That makes sense.

    The three examples already quoted were intentionally chosen to illustrate the variety of the Bible's prophecies. But there are many other examples. We could, for instance, examine those concerning Jesus Christ: he was to be in the line of Abraham, and of David, he was to be born in Bethlehem; he was to be rejected by his own people, and yet die an atoning death on their behalf; and many other details - all uttered centuries before he was born, and all strikingly fulfilled in Jesus` birth, ministry, death and resurrection.

    But we will conclude our brief survey with two further examples which will bring the prophetic programme right up to our own day.

    The Bible and the Nations

    The prophecy of Daniel contains an impressive outline of the rise and fall of empires, and of the state of the nations in what used to be called "the civilised world" - that is, the nations of Europe, the Middle East, Egypt and the North African coast, all surrounding the Mediterranean Sea. The prophecy was uttered when Daniel was captive in the court of Babylon, in the 6th century BC Its truth has been demonstrated in history from that day to the present time.

    Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, full of his own pride and glory, saw in a dream a great image of a man, made up of five parts:

    The head of the image was of gold.

    Its breast and arms were of silver.

    Its belly and thighs were of brass.

    Its two legs were of iron.

    But the feet and toes were composed of a mixture of iron and clay.

    Then a stone appeared, "cut out of the mountain without hands". It fell upon the feet of the image, brought it all crashing to the ground, and then ground into powder all its elements, so that the wind swept them away. The stone then became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

    Nebuchadnezzar was much troubled by the fate of this image, for none of his wise men could tell him what it meant. But Daniel, the prophet of Israel declared:

    "There is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and he hath made known to king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days" (Daniel 2:28).

    So Daniel explained the meaning of the image. The head of gold represented the dominion of Nebuchadnezzar himself. It was to be succeeded by another, inferior kingdom (the breast and arms of silver); and that in turn by a third (of brass); then the fourth kingdom (the legs of iron) was to be strong and violent, but the feet and toes represented divided kingdoms, "partly strong and partly broken" (vv. 37-42)

    One thing is clear: this image represented a succession of powerful kingdoms, and it is not hard to identify them. The first we know: it was the empire of Babylon. In Daniel chapter 8 (vv. 20-21) we are told that the successors were to be Persia and Greece. The fourth power, "great and terrible", is not explicitly named in Daniel's prophecy. History abundantly verifies these predictions. About 530 BC the Babylon power was overthrown by the Medes and Persians, who eventually established the Persian Empire. It lasted for 200 years, and was then overthrown about 330 BC by Alexander the Great who set up the Empire of Greece.

    What great power succeeded the kingdoms of the successor of Alexander? There can be no doubt about the answer: it was the Empire of Rome. The Romans invaded the territories of the former Greek Empire from the 2nd century BC onwards. In the next 500 years Rome became the greatest power on earth. Its Empire covered practically all the territories of the first three, and spread far and wide into Europe, the Middle East, and all the countries surrounding the Mediterranean. Its conquests were carried out with ruthless efficiency, well symbolised by the description, "strong as iron". In the last two centuries of its existence it was divided into two parts: the Western Empire, based on Rome, and the Eastern, based on Constantinople - the two "legs" of the image.

    A God that Revealeth Secrets

    But what happened after the break-up of the Roman Empire in the 5th century AD onwards? It was not replaced by another great empire - there has in fact never been a fifth empire of comparable dominion, despite the efforts of ambitious men to establish one. The territory of the Roman Empire broke up under the attacks of the barbarian tribes of Huns, Goths, Visigoths and Vandals, who formed separate kingdoms of their own. The nations of the present day Europe are the successors of these kingdoms. Throughout their history of 1500 years to the present day, those nations have remained in a divided state, well symbolised by the image's feet, part iron and part clay: "partly strong and partly broken . . . they shall not cleave one to another" (Daniel 2:42-43).

    How could Daniel have known that the great dominion of Nebuchadnezzar would be succeeded by three others, the fourth being exceptionally strong, but would never be succeeded by a fifth? How could he have known that after the fall of the fourth, its empire would disintegrate into divided States, with little unity between them? Of course, of himself he could know no such thing, nor could any other man. But Daniel does not leave us without an explanation:

    "There is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets . . . The great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: the dream is certain and the interpretation thereof sure" (vv.28,45).

    How else can you explain that the prophecy of Daniel chapter two should be in existence centuries before Christ, and yet contain a forecast of the course of Empires and nations accurate right up to the present day, well over 2000 years ago? If there is indeed "a God in heaven", you can understand it. Without Him, there is no reasonable explanation.

    We shall comment in the concluding section on the last phase of the image vision, when the stone strikes the image on the feet and brings it all down. But for our final prophetic example we turn to

    OUR OWN TIMES

    Although their fulfilments have extended right up to the present day, the prophecies so far considered have concerned events long in the past (with the exception of the recent regathering of Israel to their ancient land). Has Bible prophecy anything to say about modern times, as a guide to us in these days?

    Indeed it has: and what a contrast it makes with the confident expectations of human thinking! The 19th century was an age of optimism. Great developments were taking place. Increased scientific knowledge led to rapid technical progress, bringing greater industrial production. This in turn meant more wealth (though not for the poorest people). Education was being made available to all sections of society, and beneficial results were confidently expected. Better educated people would take more interest, it was argued, in arts like literature, music and painting. The general moral tone of society would be improved. Politicians promised a new social order of justice and equality for all. As people became better off, they would cease to envy one another. "Banish poverty, and you'll banish crime" was the slogan. When the finest powers of the human mind were developed, peace would be established among the nations. Church leaders confidently looked forward to the spreading of the Gospel all over the world. Human progress and improvement, both in individuals and in society, were taken for granted. The future was bright.

    Peace and Progress?

    What a shock the events of the 20th century have been! The dream of progress and peace has faded. Two terrible world wars, with millions of slain and untold damage and suffering, have been followed by the development of the mostly frightfully destructive weapons ever invented. The varying solutions in which the "wise men" of the 19th century put their trust have all been exposed as false. More widespread education has not been followed by higher moral standards, but by a growth in dishonesty, greed, violence and crime. The Christian religion, far from converting the nations, is in decline all over the earth. Democracy in politics has not proved the magic cure for social evils that was expected. Finally - cruellest blow of all - science has proved a frighteningly double-edged weapon. Far from being an era of peace, this "civilised" 20th century has become an age of strife and violence. No wonder the attitude of so many people is one of pessimistic resignation. There seems little any one can do.

    Now what has Bible prophecy to say about all this?

    It has a clear forecast of the "last days", "the time of the end", when the career of mankind in the earth will come to a critical point. It is not a picture of continuing progress and peace, but rather of world trouble and fear. The clearest and most striking example of this is found in what Jesus says to his disciples, when they asked him what would be the sign of his return to the earth and of "the end of the world". He tells them first about the fate of the Jewish people:

    "They (the Jews) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles (the nations), until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" (Luke 21:24).

    Now this is a brief description of what we have already considered in prophecy concerning Israel. The Jews were to be driven as captives into all nations: Jerusalem was to be subject to Gentile powers. Note that Jesus implies a limit to this: "until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled". We have seen the beginning of this in our own days: Jerusalem is no longer dominated by "foreign" powers - it is under the control of Israel itself.

    World Distress and Fear

    So what he says next must also apply to the same days - the days of Israel's restoration to their own land; This is what he foretells:

    "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after (for expectation of, R.V.) those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken" (vv.25-26).

    This is no picture of peace and progress. It is a world of distress and perplexity, of fear seizing men's hearts as they contemplate the events taking place on "the inhabited earth" (as the word Jesus used literally means).

    The Apostle Paul, writing about 35 years after the time of Jesus` prophecy, has this to say about the character of the last days:

    ". . . In the last days there will come times of stress. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents. ungrateful, unholy, inhuman, implacable, slanderers, profligates, fierce, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure, rather than lovers of God, holding the form of religion but denying the power of it . . ." (2 Timothy 3:1-5, RSV).

    This is an astonishing picture of a civilisation; mankind is throwing off all restraint and indulging its own desires, reckless of consequences. Its uncanny resemblance to the developments in our own world cannot be denied.

    So this is the position: whereas the "wise men" of only 100 years ago were confidently anticipating an era of progress and peace for the nations of the world, the Bible, in the words of Jesus and Paul, was foretelling a world of distress, fear, and perplexity, an age of violence, self-indulgence and hatred. Our human philosophers were wrong; Jesus and Paul were right. But they spoke and wrote over 1900 years ago! How could they have known? Only because neither of them spoke his own words, but the words of God Himself. It was God who knew, and inspired His Son and His apostle to reveal the character of the last days.

    Conclusions

    There are certain important conclusions to be drawn from our consideration of these Bible prophecies.

    If the Bible has proved to be so right in its predictions about events in human history - the fates of Babylon, Egypt, and Israel, as well as the rise and fall of empires, and the state of the modern world - is it not just as likely to be right in its predictions of events which have not yet come to pass?

    Take that image vision in Daniel, for instance. We have not so far commented upon the final development: the stone, "cut out of the movuntain without hands", smote the image on the feet, destroyed it, and then itself "became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth" (Daniel 2:35). Now the general sense of this is plain: a new element not part of the image empires and kingdoms, destroys them and takes their place in the earth. And since "without hands" must mean "without human hands" the stone must represent no ordinary human power.

    But Daniel tells us himself what it means:

    "In the days of those kings (that is, the various kingdoms that followed the Roman Empire) shall the God of Heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed . . . it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever" (v.44).

    The present governments and powers of the world are to be removed, in a sudden dramatic event, when God intervenes and sets up His own government. To avoid misunderstanding it should be said that it is not the populations of the earth who are to be destroyed: it is the power and authority of their human governments, to be replaced by the new Kingdom of God. Many other prophecies tell us of the nature of this Kingdom; the uprightness of its rule, the truth of its teaching, and the peace it will at last bring to mankind through their recognition of "the God of heaven". Read for instance Isaiah 2:1-4 for a clear and striking picture of the nations in that age to come.

    But how exactly is this great change in the earth to be accomplished? The New Testament tells us. In fact Jesus himself tells us in that prophecy of times of trouble and fear for all nations. His next words are these:

    "Then shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory" (Luke 21:27).

    He is saying that he will come back himself. The return of Christ to the earth is a frequent theme in the teachings of Jesus and the apostles in the New Testament. They agree completely with the prophets. Read Psalm 72 for a picture of his reign.

    Now this surely is what should concern us: if the prophecies of the Bible about nations and empires have proved so true over a period of more than 2000 years, are not those other things they predict also likely to come to pass? Is it not unreasonable to say: "Well, I accept that the prophets were right in their predictions in these historical matters, but I can't believe what they say about the future for us." Why not? They have given evidence that they were setting out not their own ideas, but the very purposes of God. Whatever else they say must surely claim from us all the most careful attention.

    The Vital Element

    But of course there is more. These remarkable prophecies are found in the Bible, and nowhere else in the world. There are no other writings, no other books, no other human pronouncements which can even begin to compare with the Bible. But the Bible tells us that Jesus was the Son of God; the things he said are preserved for us in the Gospels of the New Testament. Together with the teachings of his inspired apostles Peter, John and Paul, they reveal to us truths we cannot know otherwise. They warn us of the reality of death; they explain why the Gospel is "the good news", "the power of God unto salvation" (Romans 1:16). They encourage us with the promise of a lasting life in the new order which Christ will establish when he comes. That is why we ought to be reading the Bible. It can make the vital difference to us between the hopelessness of death and the confident hope of everlasting life.

    Careful reading of the Bible will convince us that God exists, that He is in control, and that He calls us to be disciples of His Son. The Bible is the book for us . We do well to pay attention to what it says.

    Published by the Christadelphians. I like to add that I am not associated with this group.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2002
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  3. Xelios We're setting you adrift idiot Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,447
    I don't have the time right now to read through that whole post (work tomorrow) but by reading over the prophecies I see at least one flaw. Many of those prophecies can be taken to mean several different things.

    Isreal's currency could have been made the shekel simply because that's what it was called in the Bible. The leaders of Isreal thought this was a good a name as any, so they used it.

    The only reason it seems that the number of earthquakes are on the rise is because seismic technology has become increasingly more sensative over the years, able to pick up smaller and more earthquakes than before. Also, the number of seismographs in the world has increased from 350 (1931) to more than 4,000 today. The number of earthquakes with magnitude 7.0 or higher has stayed constant, and have recently been found to be decreasing. (http://wwwneic.cr.usgs.gov/neis/general/handouts/increase_in_earthquakes.html)

    People would love pleasures more than God-2 Tim 3:1,2,4.

    This is much too vague to support any kind of prophecy. There have always been many people who love pleasures more than God. Since the coming of Jesus himself men have been indulging themselves in pleasures rather than spend that time worshipping God.

    I've also noticed he does not include any information pertaining to where he picked up his "evidence" supporting these prophecies. A bibliography or footnotes (or links) of some type would certainly make it more like evidence, and less like his own opinions.

    I would comment some more, but I really have to be getting to bed. 'night.
     
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  5. Markx Registered Senior Member

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    970
    Bdmart,
    Did you just copy and paste this article from some bible link? or did you bother studying the whole bible word to word? If you didn't bother I can give you insite of our well let's say your so Called word of God. Would you be interested in knowing truth?.

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  7. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
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    Re: Re: Proof The Bible is True

    You guys and gals know that I pretty much keep my nose out of this type of thread, but I am intrigued. The Bible specifically mentions the United States? 2000 years ago? I am impressed.

    Peace.
     
  8. Fukushi -meta consciousness- Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,231
    We recommend you now read your Bible every day faithfully—5 chapters a day

    —5 chapters a day?!? Aawhw-men!! That's just horrible £µ! And will you feed my mouth? and pay my bills?
    Get real

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Do you really aspect people to spend so much time on reading on solely ONE subject?

    What? Yes?!? oh,.......well then go ahead but it doesn't mean you have to spread these 5chapters on this forum daily oke?

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  9. Xelios We're setting you adrift idiot Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,447
    I will admit, this "report" has potential, but so far there is not enough evidence and references in it to validate any of it. Also, it mentions that the Bible holds 10,000 prophecies. He depicts about 19 here. What if there's only about 25 or so out of 10,000 that have come true in detail? He would have no problem portraying 19 of those 25 and pointing out they are true in every way, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will all be true.
     
  10. Markx Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    970

    I didn't say everything is contrdicted. But there are plenty. And they will make it likely Not so true word of God. Since God doesn't contradict right??. Another this it is not just me who contradict anything in bible it is bible it self.

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    So can you handle the truth?.

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  11. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,197
    Bdmart have a nice read!! Bible contradictions

    I guess you missed it, I'll post it one more times, and as many times as needed, for prove of all the contradictions of your precious bible!!.

    Bible Contradictions:

    PAUL SAID, "God is not the author of confusion," (I Corinthians 14:33), yet never has a book produced more confusion than the bible! There are hundreds of denominations and sects, all using the "inspired Scriptures" to prove their conflicting doctrines.
    Why do trained theologians differ? Why do educated translators disagree over Greek and Hebrew meanings? Why all the confusion? Shouldn't a document that was "divinely inspired" by an omniscient and omnipotent deity be as clear as possible?

    "If the trumpet give an uncertain sound," Paul wrote in I Corinthians 14:8, "who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air." Exactly! Paul should have practiced what he preached. For almost two millennia, the bible has been producing a most "uncertain sound."

    The problem is not with human limitations, as some claim. The problem is the bible itself. People who are free of theological bias notice that the bible contains hundreds of discrepancies. Should it surprise us when such a literary and moral mish-mash, taken seriously, causes so much discord? Here is a brief sampling of biblical contradictions.


    Should we kill?
    Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."
    Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."
    vs.


    Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."
    I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
    I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
    Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
    Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."
    For a discussion of the defense that the Commandments prohibit only murder, see "Murder, He Wrote", chapter 27 (Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist).

    Should we tell lies?
    Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness."
    Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."
    vs.


    I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."
    II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."
    Also, compare Joshua 2:4-6 with James 2:25.

    Should we steal?
    Exodus 20:15 "Thou shalt not steal."
    Leviticus 19:13 "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, neither rob him."
    vs.


    Exodus 3:22 "And ye shall spoil the Egyptians."
    Exodus 12:35-36 "And they spoiled [plundered, NRSV] the Egyptians."
    Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him."
    I was taught as a child that when you take something without asking for it, that is stealing.

    Shall we keep the sabbath?
    Exodus 20:8 "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy."
    Exodus 31:15 "Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."
    Numbers 15:32,36 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. . . . And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
    vs.


    Isaiah 1:13 "The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity."
    John 5:16 "And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day."
    Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy-day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days."
    Shall we make graven images?
    Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water."
    Leviticus 26:1 "Ye shall make ye no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone."
    Deuteronomy 27:15 "Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image."
    vs.


    Exodus 25:18 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them."
    I Kings 7:15,16,23,25 "For he [Solomon] cast two pillars of brass . . . and two chapiters of molten brass . . . And he made a molten sea . . . it stood upon twelve oxen . . . [and so on]"
    Are we saved through works?
    Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works."
    Romans 3:20,28 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."
    Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."
    vs.


    James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
    Matthew 19:16-21 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he [Jesus] said unto him . . . keep the commandments. . . . The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven."
    The common defense here is that "we are saved by faith and works." But Paul said "not of works."

    Should good works be seen?
    Matthew 5:16 "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works."
    I Peter 2:12 "Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that . . . they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation."
    vs.


    Matthew 6:1-4 "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them . . . that thine alms may be in secret."
    Matthew 23:3,5 "Do not ye after their [Pharisees'] works. . . . all their works they do for to be seen of men."
    Should we own slaves?
    Leviticus 25:45-46 "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever."
    Genesis 9:25 "And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."
    Exodus 21:2,7 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. . . . And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the manservants do."
    Joel 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it."
    Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes."
    Colossians 3:22 "Servants, obey in all things your masters."
    vs.


    Isaiah 58:6 "Undo the heavy burdens . . . let the oppressed go free, . . . break every yoke."
    Matthew 23:10 "Neither be ye called Masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."
    Pro-slavery bible verses were cited by many churches in the South during the Civil War, and were used by some theologians in the Dutch Reformed Church to justify apartheid in South Africa. There are more pro-slavery verses than cited here.

    Does God change his mind?
    Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."
    Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."
    Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."
    James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
    vs.


    Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
    Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."
    Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."
    See also II Kings 20:1-7, Numbers 16:20-35, Numbers 16:44-50.

    See Genesis 18:23-33, where Abraham gets God to change his mind about the minimum number of righteous people in Sodom required to avoid destruction, bargaining down from fifty to ten. (An omniscient God must have known that he was playing with Abraham's hopes for mercy--he destroyed the city anyway.)

    Are we punished for our parents' sins?
    Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:9)
    Exodus 34:6-7 " . . . The Lord God, merciful and gracious, . . . that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."
    I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, . . ."
    vs.


    Ezekiel 18:20 "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father."
    Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."
    Is God good or evil?
    Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all."
    Deuteronomy 32:4 "a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."
    vs.


    Isaiah 45:7 "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things." See "Out of Context" for more on Isaiah 45:7.
    Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"
    Jeremiah 18:11 "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."
    Ezekiel 20:25,26 "I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord."
    Does God tempt people?
    James 1:13 "Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
    vs.


    Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."
    Is God peaceable?
    Romans 15:33 "The God of peace."
    Isaiah 2:4 ". . . and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
    vs.


    Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a man of war."
    Joel 3:9-10 "Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong."
    Was Jesus peaceable?
    John 14:27 "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you."
    Acts 10:36 "The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ."
    Luke 2:14 " . . . on earth peace, good will toward men."
    vs.


    Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."
    Luke 22:36 "Then said he unto them, . . . he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Was Jesus trustworthy?
    John 8:14 "Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true."
    vs.


    John 5:31 "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."
    "Record" and "witness" in the above verses are the same Greek word (martyria).

    Shall we call people names?
    Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire." [Jesus speaking]
    vs.


    Matthew 23:17 "Ye fools and blind." [Jesus speaking]
    Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."
    Has anyone seen God?
    John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time."
    Exodus 33:20 "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."
    John 6:46 "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God [Jesus], he hath seen the Father."
    I John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time."
    vs.


    Genesis 32:30 "For I have seen God face to face."
    Exodus 33:11 "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."
    Isaiah 6:1 "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple."
    Job 42:5 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."
    How many Gods are there?
    Deuteronomy 6:4 "The Lord our God is one Lord."
    vs.


    Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image."
    Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil."
    I John 5:7 "And there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
    It does no good to claim that "Let us" is the magisterial "we." Such usage implies inclusivity of all authorities under a king's leadership. Invoking the Trinity solves nothing because such an idea is more contradictory than the problem it attempts to solve.

    Are we all sinners?
    Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
    Romans 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."
    Psalm 14:3 "There is none that doeth good, no, not one."
    vs.


    Job 1:1 "There was a man . . . who name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright."
    Genesis 7:1 "And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation."
    Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."
    How old was Ahaziah?
    II Kings 8:26 "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."
    vs.


    II Chronicles 22:2 "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."
    Should we swear an oath?
    Numbers 30:2 "If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath . . . he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth."
    Genesis 21:22-24,31 " . . . swear unto me here by God that thou wilt not deal falsely with me . . . And Abraham said, I will swear. . . . Wherefore he called that place Beersheba ["well of the oath"]; because there they sware both of them."
    Hebrews 6:13-17 "For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself . . . for men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath."
    See also Genesis 22:15-19, Genesis 31:53, and Judges 11:30-39.

    vs.


    Matthew 5:34-37 "But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven . . . nor by the earth . . . . Neither shalt thou swear by thy head . . . . But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."
    James 5:12 ". . . swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation."
    When was Jesus crucified?
    Mark 15:25 "And it was the third hour, and they crucified him."
    vs.


    John 19:14-15 "And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out . . . crucify him."
    It is an ad hoc defense to claim that there are two methods of reckoning time here. It has never been shown that this is the case.

    Shall we obey the law?
    I Peter 2:13 "Submit yourself to every ordinance of man . . . to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors."
    Matthew 22:21 "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's." See also Romans 13:1,7 and Titus 3:1.
    vs.


    Acts 5:29 "We ought to obey God rather then men."
    How many animals on the ark?
    Genesis 6:19 "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark."
    Genesis 7:8-9 "Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah."
    Genesis 7:15 "And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life."
    vs.


    Genesis 7:2 "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female."
    Were women and men created equal?
    Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
    vs.


    Genesis 2:18,23 "And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. . . . And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."
    Were trees created before humans?
    Genesis 1:12-31 "And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: . . . And the evening and the morning were the third day. . . . And God said, Let us make man in our image . . . And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."
    vs.


    Genesis 2:5-9 "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. .Ê.ÊAnd the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground . . . And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food."
    Did Michal have children?
    II Samuel 6:23 "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death."
    vs.


    II Samuel 21:8 "But the king took the two sons of Rizpah . . . and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul."
    How many stalls did Solomon have?
    I Kings 4:26 "And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen."
    vs.


    II Chronicles 9:25 "And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen."
    Did Paul's men hear a voice?
    Acts 9:7 "And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."
    vs.


    Acts 22:9 "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."
    (For more detail on this contradiction, with a linguistic analysis of the Greek words, see "Did Paul's Men Hear A Voice?" by Dan Barker, published in the The Skeptical Review, 1994 #1)

    Is God omnipotent?
    Jeremiah 32:27 "Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?
    Matthew 19:26 "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."
    vs.


    Judges 1:19 "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."
    Does God live in light?
    I Timothy 6:15-16 " . . . the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach . . ."
    James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
    John 12:35 "Then Jesus saith unto them, . . . he that walketh in darkness knoweth not wither he goeth."
    Job 18:18 "He [the wicked] shall be driven from light into darkness, and chased out of the world."
    Daniel 2:22 "He [God] knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him." See also Psalm 143:3, II Corinthians 6:14, and Hebrews 12:18-22.
    vs.


    I Kings 8:12 "Then spake Solomon, The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness." (Repeated in II Chronicles 6:1)
    II Samuel 22:12 "And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies."
    Psalm 18:11 "He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies."
    Psalm 97:1-2 "The Lord reigneth; let the earth rejoice . . . clouds and darkness are round about him."
    Does God accept human sacrifice?
    Deuteronomy 12:31 "Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods."
    vs.


    Genesis 22:2 "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."
    Exodus 22:29 "For thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors; the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me."
    Judges 11:30-39 "And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hand, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon . . . and the Lord delivered them into his hands. . . . And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: . . . And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed."
    II Samuel 21:8-14 "But the king [David] took the two sons of Rizpah . . . and the five sons of Michal . . . and he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the Lord: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest . . . And after that God was intreated for the land."
    Hebrews 10:10-12 " . . . we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ . . . But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God."
    I Corinthians 5:7 " . . . For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us."
    Who was Joseph's father?
    Matthew 1:16 "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus."
    vs.


    Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli."

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This chapter was first printed as a "nontract," a freethinkers' version of a (non-proselytizing) tract. Since it was first published, I have received numerous replies from Christians who think that these contradictions are either trivial or easily explained. Yet not a single "explanation" has been convincing. Most of them do little homework, inventing off-the-cuff defenses of what the bible "could have meant," or devising creative explanations that actually make the problem worse. For example, one Christian, agreeing with Eusebius, explained that "Thou shalt not bear false witness" does not prohibit lies, and that God actually wants us to tell falsehoods if it will further the kingdom of heaven.

    Many of the defensive attempts are arguments from silence. Some apologists assert that since the writer of John does not say that there were not more women who visited the tomb with Mary, then it is wrong to accuse him of contradicting the other evangelists who say it was a group of women. But this is a non-argument. With this kind of thinking, I could claim that the people who accompanied Mary to the tomb included Mother Teresa, Elvis Presley, and Paul Bunyan. Since the writer of John does not specifically exclude these people, then there is no way to prove that this is not true--if such fragile logic is valid.

    All of the above contradictions have been carefully studied, and when necessary the original languages have been consulted. Although it is always scholarly to consider the original languages, why should that be necessary with the "word of God?" An omnipotent, omniscient deity should have made his all-important message unmistakably clear to everyone, everywhere, at all times. No one should have to learn an extinct language to get God's message, especially an ancient language about which there is much scholarly disagreement. If the English translation is flawed or imprecise, then God failed to get his point across to English speakers. A true fundamentalist should consider the English version of the bible to be just as inerrant as the original because if we admit that human error was possible in the translation, then it was equally possible in the original writing. (Some fundamentalists do assert that the King James Version is perfect. One preacher reportedly said, "If the King James Version was good enough for the Apostle Paul, then it's good enough for me.") If a contradiction exists in English, then the bible is contradictory.

    The above list of thirty-three contradictions is a very small portion of the thousands of biblical discrepancies that have been catalogued by scholars. See "Leave No Stone Unturned" for seventeen additional contradictions specific to the resurrection of Jesus. One monthly publication, "Biblical Errancy," is devoted entirely to this topic (published by Dennis McKinsey, 3158 Sherwood Park Drive, Springfield OH, 45505.) Even if a defender of the bible were to eliminate all of the above (and no one has come close), we are still only scratching the surface. The bible is a flawed book.

    Is that enough for ya?


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  12. Rick Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,336
    God!You know more about Bible than any GOD follower!

    if you"re an Atheist,why the hell do you need to read,the whole stuff out.

    as i said before,you are a parasite,you need GOD for your and your groups existence isnt it?


    bye!
     
  13. Markx Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    970
    And the list goes on..............

    THE BIBLE AS GOD'S WORD

    ------------------

    Can God be the author of confusion and contradiction?

    i) I John 5:7 which hinted at the Trinity is taken out of every modern version of the Bible as it is not to be found in the most ancient manuscripts (that they have access to today).

    There is therefore no longer any verse in the Bible which preaches three gods as one. The Koran preaches that God is one indivisible, and not a trinity ( Koran 4:171)

    ii) II Samuel 24 :1 says that God incited David to number Israel .
    I Chronicles 21:1 says that Satan incited David to number Israel. God and Satan are not synonymous.

    iii) II Chronicles 36:9 says that Jehoiachin was 8 years old when he became king.
    II Kings 24:8 says Jehoiachin was 18 years old when he became king.

    A difference of 10 years

    iv) II Samuel 10:18 talks about David slew the men of 700 chariots of the Syrians and 40,000 horsemen and Shobach the commander.
    I Chronicles 1:18 says that David slew the men of 7000 chariots and 40,000 footmen

    Contradiction: one says 700 the other 7000. One says 40,000 horsemen(cavalry), the other 40,000 footmen (infantry).

    v) I Chronicles 9:25 says that Solomon had 4000 stalls for horses and chariots.
    I Kings 4:26 says that he had 40,000 stalls for horses

    A difference of 36,000.

    vi) Ezra 2:5 talks about an exile Arah having 775 sons.
    Nehemiah 7:10 talks about the same exile Arah having 652 sons.

    vii) John the Baptist contradicts Jesus.

    According to Jesus, John the Baptist was Elijah in his 2nd coming Matthew 17:11.

    John the Baptist denied being Elijah when the priests and Levites questioned him
    (John 1:19-21).

    viii) Was Jesus put on a cross (Stauron in Greek) Mark 15:11 or on a tree (Ksulon in Greek) I Peter 2:24

    ix) John 3:13 Jesus says that none has ascended into heaven except the son of man who descended from heaven.

    This contradicts II Kings 2:11 which says that Elijah ascended into heaven.

    x) The Genealogy of Jesus.

    a) From David to Jesus 41 names (generations) are given by Matthew [although he claims
    there are 42] as against the 26 names [generations] given by Luke [Luke 3]. A difference
    of 15 whole generations in the genealogy of the same man.

    Matthew mentions that Jesus was the seed of David through Solomon while Luke says that Jesus was the seed of David through Nathan [Solomon's brother]. This is a contradiction as the seed of David could never reach Jesus through Solomon and his brother Nathan at the same time. According to Matthew Jesus' grandfather is Jacob [the father of Joseph] while according to Luke it is Heli.

    xi) Luke doesn't claim inspiration of his Gospel by God. He wrote it because he knew of the events and it "seemed good to him" ( Luke 1:1-5). Also see I Corinthians 7:25 where Paul, in this specific case says that he's informing without God's commandment. II Timothy 3:16 is presented to "prove" that all of the Bible is God's inspiration, the above 2 references apart from the many others disprove that.

    The point is that the Bible itself doesn't claim to be completely from God (as a whole by name). Since God is all- Knowing and isn't the author of confusion, the above references cannot be from God.

    "How can you say that we are wise and that the law of the Lord is with us but behold, the false pen of the scribe has made it into a lie." Bible. Jeremiah 8:8

    "Woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say:"This is from God", that they may trade it for some miserable gain. So woe to them for what their hands do write and woe to them for what they gain with it." Koran 2:79



    May God guide us always closer to the truth.

    THE BIBLE AND PEACE:
    20:29-30 The Israelites smite 100,000 Syrian soldiers in one day. A wall falls on 27,000 remaining Syrians.
    .
    2KI NGS2:23-24 Forty-two children are mauled and killed, presumably according to the will of God, for having jeered at a man of God.
    .
    2KI NGS5:27 Elisha curses Gehazi and his descendants forever with leprosy.
    .
    2KINGS 6:29 "So we cooked my son and ate him. The next day I said to her, 'Give up your son so we may eat him,' but she had hidden him."
    .
    2KINGS 9:30-37 Jehu has Jezebel killed. Her body is trampled by horses. Dogs eat her flesh so that only her skull, feet, and the palms of her hands remain.
    .
    2KINGS 10:7 Jehu has Ahab's seventy sons beheaded, then sends the heads to their father.
    .
    2KINGS 10:14 Jehu has forty-two of Ahab's kin killed.
    .
    2KINGS 10:17 "And when he came to Samaria, he slew all that remained to Ahab in Samaria, till he had wiped them out, according to the word of the Lord ...."
    .
    2KINGS 10:19-27 Jehu uses trickery to massacre the Baal worshippers.
    .
    2KINGS 14:5, 7 Amaziah kills his servants and then 10,000 Edomites.
    .
    2KINGS 15:3-5 Even though he did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, the Lord smites Azariah with leprosy for not having removed the "high places."
    .
    2KINGS 15:16 Menahem ripped open all the women who were pregnant.
    .
    2KINGS 19:35 An angel of the Lord kills 185,000 men.
    .
    2CHRONICLES 13:17 500,000 Israelites are slaughtered.
    .
    2CHRONICLES 21:4 Jehoram slays all his brothers.
    .
    PSALMS 144:1 God is praised as the one who trains hands for war and fingers for battle
    .
    ISAIAH 49:26 The Lord will cause the oppressors of the Israelite's toeat their own flesh and to become drunk on their own blood as with wine.
    .
    EZEKIEL 6:12-13 The Lord says: "... they will fall by the sword, famine and plague. He that is far away will die of the plague, and he that is near will fall by the sword, and he that survives and is spared will die of famine. So will I spend my wrath upon them. And they will know I am the Lord, when the people lie slain among their idols around their altars, on every high hill and on all the mountaintops, under every spreading tree and every leafy oak ...."
    .
    EZEKIEL 9:4-6 The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women ...."
    .
    EZEKIEL 20:26 In order that he might horrify them, the Lord allowed the Israelites to defile themselves through, amongst other things, the sacrifice of their first-born children.
    .
    EZEKIEL 21:3-4 The Lord says that he will cut off both the righteous and the wicked that his sword shall go against all flesh.
    .
    EZEKIEL 23:25,47 God is going to slay the sons and daughters of those who were whores.
    .
    HOSEA 13:16 "They shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."

    MATTHEW 11:21-24 Jesus curses [the inhabitants of] three cities who were not sufficiently impressed with his great works.

    THE BIBLE AND SLAVERY
    .
    "Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God."
    - Colossians 3:22
    .
    "Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the foward.
    - 1 Peter 2:18
    .
    "Let as many servants as are under your yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed."
    - 1 Timothy 6:1
    .
    "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ."
    - Ephesians 6:5
    .
    "Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; not purloining, but showing good
    fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things."
    - Titus 2:9-10
    .
    "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a
    day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money."
    - Exodus 21:20-21
    .
    "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out
    by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master has given him a wife, and she has born him sons or daughters; the
    wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
    And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go free: Then his master shall bring him unto the judges;
    he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever."
    - Exodus 21:2-6
    .
    "Both thy bondsmen, and thy bondsmaids, which thou shall have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondsmen and bondsmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession...
    - Leviticus 25:44-45

    THE BOOK OF JUDGES ("HOLY" BIBLE)

    JG 3:29 The Israelites kill about 10,000 Moabites.
    .
    JG 3:31 (A restatement.) Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an oxgoad.
    .
    JG 4:21 Jael takes a tent stake and hammers it through the head of Sisera, fastening it to the ground.
    .
    JG 7:19-25 The Gideons defeat the Midianites, slay their princes, cut off their heads, and bring the heads back to Gideon.
    .
    JG 8:15-21 The Gideons slaughter the men of Penuel.
    .
    JG 9:45 Abimalech and his men kill all the people in the city.
    .
    JG 11:29-39 Jepthah sacrifices his beloved daughter, his only child, according to a vow he has made with the Lord.
    .
    JG 14:19 The Spirit of the Lord comes upon a man and causes him to slay thirty men.
    .
    JG 15:15 Samson slays 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass.
    .
    JG 16:27-30 Samson, with the help of the Lord, pulls down the pillars of the Philistine house and causes his own death and that of 3000 other men and women.
    .
    JG 18:27 The Danites slay the quiet and unsuspecting people of Laish.
    .
    JG 20:43-48 The Israelites smite 25,000+ "men of valor" from amongst the Benjamites, "men and beasts and all that they found," and set their towns on fire.
    .
    JG 21:10-12 "... Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." They do so and find four hundred young virgins whom they bring back for their own use.

    1 SAMUEL AND 2 SAMUEL ("HOLY BIBLE").
    1SA 6:19 God kills seventy men (or so) for looking into the Ark (at him?). (Note: The early Israelites apparently thought the Ark to be God's abode.)
    .
    1SA 11:11 With the Lord's blessing, Saul and his men cut down the Ammonites.
    .
    1SA 15:3, 7-8 "This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep,
    camel and ass ....' And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
    .
    1SA 14:31 Jonathan and his men strike down the Philistines.
    .
    1SA 15:33 "Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord ...."
    .
    1SA 18:7 The women sing as they make merry: "Saul has slain his thousands and David his ten thousands."
    .
    1SA 18:27 David murders 200 Philistines, then cuts off their foreskins.
    .
    1SA 30:17 David smites the Amalekites.
    .
    2SA 4:7-8 Rechan and Baanah kill Ish-bosheth, behead him, and take his head to David.
    .
    2SA 4:12 David has Rechan and Baanah killed, their hands and feet cut off, and their bodies hanged by the pool at Hebron.
    .
    2SA 5:25 "And David did as the Lord commanded him, and smote the Philistines ...."
    .
    2SA 8:1-18 (A listing of some of David's murderous conquests.)
    .
    2SA 8:4 David hamstrung all but a few of the horses.
    .
    2SA 8:5 David slew 22,000 Syrians.
    .
    2SA 8:13 David slew 18,000 Edomites in the valley of salt and made the rest slaves.
    .
    2SA 10:18 David slew 47,000+ Syrians.
    .
    2SA 11:14-27 David has Uriah killed so that he can marry Uriah's wife, Bathsheba.
    .
    2SA 12:1, 19 The Lord strikes David's child dead for the sin that David has committed.

    THE BOOK OF KINGS ("HOLY" BIBLE).

    1KI 2:24-25 Solomon has Adonijah murdered.
    .
    1KI 2:29-34 Solomon has Joab murdered.
    .
    1KI 2:46 Solomon has Shime-i murdered.
    .
    1KI 13:15-24 A man is killed by a lion for eating bread and drinking water in a place where the Lord had previously told him not to. This is in spite of the fact that the man had subsequently been lied to by a prophet who told the man that an angel of the Lord said that it would be all right to eat and drink there.

    i) 1 samuel 18:27: Wherefore, David arose and he went he and his men and slew of the Philistines two hundred men and then guess what he did????? he chopped off their penis foreskins and gave them to Saul so that he could have his daughter michele as wife.
    ii)Isaiah 36:12:" but Rabshakeh said.....has he not sent me to the men that sit upon the wall, THAT THEY MAY EAT THIER OWN DUNG AND DRINK THEIR OWN PISS WITH YOU.
    Non-Existent Prophecies
    .
    Matthew 2:23 "that which was spoken by the prophets, 'He shall be called a Nazarene.'" The words Nazareth / Nazarene are not even found in the Old Testament. Use a word search.
    .
    Matthew 27:9-10 In reference to the potter's field being bought with thirty pieces of silver, quoting Jeremiah in the Old Testament. This is not in
    Jeremiah at all.
    .
    Luke 24:46 & I Cor.15:4 After Jesus resurrected, he said, "Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead
    the third day." This is a non-existent prophecy. There is no reference to a third day resurrection anywhere in the Old Testament.

    MEDIA AND MODERN RESEARCH


    "In their relentless search for "the historical Jesus," various Biblical Scholars argue that the Gospel stories of the empty tomb and Jesus'
    post-resurrection appearances are fictions devised long after his death to justify claims of his divinity." (Rethinking the Resurrection, Newsweek. April 8 1996, page 42)

    "While belivers through the ages have echoed Peter's faith-filled declaration, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God," some modern scholars say that historical evidence reveals a much different portrait of Jesus than the one in Christian creeds." (In search of Jesus, U.S.News & World Report, April 8 1996, page 47)

    What do they say about the Bible?

    "For another, the post-resurrection stories contain a variety of factual discrepancies about the main characters, places, times and the messages attributed to the Risen Jesus. For example, the Gospel of Matthew has Jesus appearing first to Mary Magdalene and other woman. Luke gives the
    first appearance to Peter, and (with the exception of a later addition to his Gospel) Mark contains no post-Resurrection appearances at all. Luke's Gospel says that Jesus appeared to the apostels in the Jerusalem area; Matthew says it was in Galilee." (Rethinking the Resurrection, Newsweek. April 8 1996, page 44)

    "Many sholars think the gospels are unreliable records since they were written as proclamation, not objective history, decades after Jesus's
    death." (In search of Jesus, U.S.News & World Report, April 8 1996, page 47)

    "There are, after all, four Gospels, whose actual writing, most scholars have come to acknowledge, was done not by the Apostles but by their anonymous followers (or their follower's followers). Each presented a somewhat different picture of Jesus's life. (The search for Jesus, TIME,
    April 8 1996, page 38)


    THE BIBLE AND WOMEN

    "When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her."
    (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)

    "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."
    (Leviticus 21:9)

    "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days;
    according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean." (Leviticus 12:2)

    "But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days." (Leviticus 12:5)

    "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)

    "For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)

    Jesus a baby killer??

    "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." (Revelation 2:22-23)

    On witches:

    "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Whoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. He that sacrificeth unto any god, save to the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed." (Exodus 22:18-20)

    Don't Harm the man but take the woman:

    "Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good
    unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go." (Judges 19:24-25)

    Silence The Woman:

    "Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)

    Stone them:

    "If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;" (Deuteronomy 22:22)

    "Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you." (Deuteronomy 22:24)

    Best way to get your choice bride is to rape her or have adultry with her according to
    the Bible:

    "If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of
    silvers, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days." (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

    Wives submit to your husbands as if they are Gods According to the Bible:

    "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. " (Ephesians 5:22-24)

    Women have to shut up according to the Bible:

    "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)

    Husband rules over the wife according to the Bible:

    "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." (Genesis 3:16)

    God rips pregnant women according to the Bible:

    "Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces,
    and their women with child shall be ripped up." (Hosea 13:16)

    Women's wickedness is the worst:

    "Give me any plague, but the plague of the heart: and any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman." (Eccles. 25:13)

    "Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die." (Eccles. 25:22)

    "If she go not as thou wouldest have her, cut her off from thy flesh, and give her a bill of divorce, and let her go." (Eccles. 25: 26)

    "The whoredom of a woman may be known in her haughty looks and eyelids. If thy daughter be shameless, keep her in straitly, lest she abuse
    herself through overmuch liberty." (Eccles. 26:9-10)

    "A silent and loving woman is a gift of the Lord: and there is nothing so much worth as a mind well instructed. A shamefaced and faithful woman
    is a double grace, and her continent mind cannot be valued." (Eccles. 26:14-15)

    "A shameless woman shall be counted as a dog; but she that is shamefaced will fear the Lord." (Eccles.26:25)

    "For from garments cometh a moth, and from women wickedness. Better is the churlishness of a man than a courteous woman, a woman, I say, which bringeth shame and reproach." (Eccles. 42:13-14)

    Biblical Pornography:

    "Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt. For
    she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses." (Ezekiel 23: 20-21)

    "and lusted after her paramours there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose emission was like that of stallions." (Ezekiel 23:
    21, NRSV)

    Cain took eve as wife?? Or what happened. Something's wrong here: For when he married there was NO other woman.

    "And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch." (Genesis 4:17)

    David Danced Naked (where were the Papparazzi?)

    "And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.

    And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing
    before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart." (II Samuel 6:14-16)

    "Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of
    Israel today, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth
    himself!" (II Samuel 6:20)

    Bible suggests eating human faeces (s**t)

    "And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. And the LORD said, Even thus
    shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them." (Ezekiel 4:12-13)

    And of course when you eat you need to wash it down with:

    "But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?" (II Kings 18:27)

    Anyone for Dove's dung??

    "And there was a great famine in Samaria: and, behold, they besieged it, until an ass's head was sold for fourscore pieces of silver, and the fourth part of a cab of dove's dung for five pieces of silver." (II Kings 6:25)

    "And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son...." (II Kings 6:28-29)

    Playboy has the copyright to this show:

    "Look, I am against you!- declares Yahweh Saboath- I shall lift your skirts as high as your face and show your nakedness to the nations, your shame to the kingdoms. I shall pelt you with filth." (Nahum 3:6)

    "If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart. Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it." (Malachi 2:2-3)

    "Therefore I will wail and howl, I will go stripped and naked: I will make a wailing like the dragons, and mourning as the owls." (Micah 1:8)

    Too much chili??

    Wherefore my bowels shall sound like a harp for Moab, and mine inward parts for Kirharesh. (Isaiah 16:11)

    Hear ye, Hear ye, No pissing on the wall OR:

    "therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jerobo'am, and will cut off from Jerobo'am him that pisseth against the wall..." (I Kings 14:10)

    "And it came to pass, when he began to reign, as soon as he sat on his throne, that he slew all the house of Baasha: he left him not one that pisseth against a wall, neither of his kinsfolks, nor of his friends."
    ( I Kings 16:11)

    God wants you to see a nude prophet:

    "At the same time spake the LORD by Isaiah the son of Amoz, saying, Go and loose the sackcloth from off thy lions, and put off thy shoe from thy foot. And he did so, walking naked and barefoot. And the LORD said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years for
    a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia; So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives,
    young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt." (Isaiah 20:2-4)

    Don't lose your privates or the God of the Bible wont have you:

    "He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD. A bastard shall not
    enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD." (Deuteronomy
    23:1-2)

    Rabbits dont chew cud:

    LEV 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

    The meekest man would never say that he was the meekest

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    )

    Num.12:3: "Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the fact of the earth."

    The meek man's wrath:

    Num.31:14, 17, 18: "And Moses was wroth...And Moses said unto them, "Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman, ... But all the women children ... keep alive for yourselves."

    What were the last words of Jesus:

    Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God,
    why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

    Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

    John19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

    To see or not to see God:

    God CAN be seen:

    "And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (Ex. 33:23)

    "And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (Ex. 33:11)

    "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (Gen. 32:30)

    OR= God CANNOT be seen:

    "No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)

    "And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (Ex. 33:20)

    "Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1 Tim. 6:16)

    Peter's denial:

    Before the cock crow - Matthew 26:34

    Before the cock crow twice - Mark 14:30

    MAR 14:72 And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.

    MAT 26:74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.

    MAT 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and
    wept bitterly.

    LUK 22:60 And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the cock crew.

    LUK 22:61 And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the
    cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

    JOH 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, still thou hast denied me thrice.

    JOH 18:27 Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.

    How many children did Michael daughter of saul have??

    SA2 6:23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

    SA2 21:8 But the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of
    Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite:

    Let us Judge:

    1 Cor 2:15 " The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:" (NIV)

    1 Cor 4:5 " Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and
    will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God."

    Jesus' second coming:

    MAT 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    MAR 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

    LUK 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

    1 thessalonians 4:15-18

    "Holy" Bible And the Prophets:

    Abraham married his sis (Genesis 20:12)

    Lot had incest with his daughters who begat his children (Genesis 19:30)

    David had adultry with bathsheba (2 Samuel 11:1-7)

    Solomon worshipped idols (1 Kings 11:4)

    Noah was a drunkard and lay naked in his intoxication (Genesis 9:20)

    Aaron led people to worship the golden calf (Exodus 32:2-11)

    Jesus was seen as a wine bibber (Matthew 11:19; Luke 7:34)

    Jacob was a deceiver (Genesis 27)

    and ofcourse Isaiah was a nudist and none other than God asked him to walk naked for three years

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    ).



    On wine or not to wine?

    Proverbs 31:6-7 "Give strong drink to him who is ready to perish, and wine to those hthat be of heavy hearts. Let him drink and forget his poverty and remember his misery no more."

    That is what the homeless in new york are doing, drinking and forgetting their misery but in the process create a viscious cycle in whch the
    alcohol keeps them on the road being the leading cause and commanality about all homeless. But hey, the holy of holies says do it!

    But wait a minute the holiness says something else too (hmmmmm)

    Proverbs 20:1 (just 11 chapters earlier):"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is a ragingand whomsoever is deceived thereby is not wise."

    wow, amen to that, hmm but the Bible got self deceived!

    Cretionism myths dont agree with themselves

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    ), and then ladies and gentlemen
    there was Man

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    )

    Man was created AFTER the other animals (Genesis 1:25-26), now wait a minute
    Man was created BEFORE the other animals Genesis 2:18-19.

    SERMON ON THE MOUNT OR PLAIN?

    Hey all, anyone heard of the SERMON on the MOUNT?? (Matthew 5:1,2)?? Nice stuff
    but hey know what, good ole Luke says it was on a PLAIN (Luke 6:17.20), wow ever heard of the sermon on the plain??

    GREEK OR NOT SO GREEK?

    Was it a GREEK woman who sought Jesus since her daughter was ill (Mark 7:26) or was it a woman of CANAAN (mark 15:22).

    HOW MANY WOMEN?
    How many women went to the sephulchre after Jesus' "cruci-fiction" on the first day of the week. Whatever your answer is , guess what youre correct!

    Was it one (John 20:1) Or was it two (Matthew 28:1) or wait a minute was it three??(Mark 16:1) NAH, he was a popular guy must be more than three (Luke 24:10)

    THE RESTING GOD:

    1.God got tired and rested (Exodus 31:17) BUT ALSO God never rests or gets tired (Isaiah 40:28)

    THE UNKNOWING GOD:

    2.God sees and knows everythig (Prov 15:3) BUT THEN he doesnt see and know everything and its possible to hide from him (Genesis 3:8; Genesis 18:20-21)

    THE TEMPTING GOD:

    3.God doesnt tempt anyone (James 1:13) BUT THEN ALAS, God tempted Abraham (Genesis 22:1 ) and deceived Jeremiah (Jeremiah 20:7)- sniff

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    (

    THE LYING GOD:

    4.God doesnt lie (Hebrews 6:18) BUT THEN God sent LYING SPIRITS to lie to people (1 Kings 22:23)

    THE NOT-SO-SURE GOD

    5. God forbids the making of IMAGES (Exodus 20:4) BUT ALAS GOD commands that images of cherubims be made (Exodus 25:18,20)

    THE END OF JUDAS?

    6. Judah hung himself and comitted suicide (Matthew 27:5); OR Did he die when his bowels split open (poor fellow cant agree on his death even ) Acts 1:18

    Don't lose your privates or the God of the Bible wont have you:

    "He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD. A bastard shall not
    enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD." (Deuteronomy
    23:1-2)



    Now BDMart and KalvinB still insist that Bible is "Holy" or Holdy word of God?? Boy if it is holy then I wonder what is unholy.
     
  14. Markx Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    970


    Please continute. I didn't gave you just contradictions. There may be some not contradictions and I can even point out some are taken out of context. But they are probably only 3%/ Rest are yet to be explained. Please do if you can. Also there is profound language in this Book. Then look at the status of women, etc etc the list goes on. You can find amazing sex stories. I like you to read them to your doughter and sons?? Would you?? How would you tell them that Father and their doughters had incest??. Care to explain that to them?. Care to explain them how Holy people, I mean Porphets had sex with their own sisters?? What kind of example this book is trying to set? So pathetic so sad. Still it is holy isn't it?. I will wait for your response.
    Thanks.
     
  15. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,197
    Markx...

    This is why atheist call these, fables "blind faith" it is plainly to see in their own book, all the misconseptions, all the controversies, all the wild assertions, and yet, they are blind to see the facts of their religions, they are blinded by faith!.

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    I really don't have a problem with christians, catholics, or whatever denominations an individual may be with, as long as they don't come and shove their religions in my face, as long as they dont come with threats of hell, doom and fire crap, to scare one into belif of their religions. Fear is their tactic, manipulation is the agenda, and ignorance is their bliss!!.
     
  16. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,882
    Big list

    Hey, Markx ... pretty impressive list o'contradictions and issues. One of the first couple jumped out at me:
    I agree entirely that God and Satan are not synonymous. It's actually a cute riddle of Judgement, too: Will the Devil be redeemed? If we look to the puzzling episode recounted in the Book of Job, we see a very similarissue as you've pointed out:
    Here we see that Satan's work is equivalent to the hand of the Lord. Satan is, in practical effect, a holy agent of God; not bad for the condemned boy, eh?

    Likewise we might look at 1 Chronicles and say that Satan's tempting of David to number Israel is, in practical effect, by the direct will of the Lord.

    Such processes in the Bible lend toward the notion that the Devil will, in fact, be redeemed, and that his only responsibility for the evil he commits is that he, like all under the spell of that God, is bound to follow orders at the mightiest of stakes.

    It'll take me a while to read through the rest of your list, though. Pretty cool.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  17. ismu ::phenomenon::. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    468
    Sory...

    Sory, i'm not christian. But i hope you see this just as a different perspective from other religion.

    In my religion said that original Zabur, Taurat, Bible are truth. But during time and translation, there are some mistake on it. Top level priests modify and/or hide some of it's verses. That's why it's was confusing sometimes. The only Qur'an remains original. That's why Quran kept written in it's original language and wrote translation below the arabic verses, to maintain the originality.

    NOTE: This is NOT meant to abuse against your religion. just a different perspective.
     
  18. Markx Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    970

    Well let me make it little easy for you. Let me give you some examples from your people. I hope you won't reject them.

    Introduction: We must first of all know that the entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption! GOD Almighty Said: "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

    The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

    In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!

    Sorry but there is no proof that any other religion curroupted your bible but the christains and jewish them self.

    Some more for you................

    No credible Biblical scholar on this earth will claim that the Bible was written by Jesus himself. They all agree that the Bible was written after the departure of Jesus peace be upon him by his followers. So, if the authors of the Bible were people other than Jesus, then did they have Jesus or the Holy Spirit in them guiding their hands and dictating to them word for word what to write? As it happens, once again the answer is no. Who says so? The majority of today's credible Christian scholars do. For example:

    Dr. W Graham Scroggie of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, a prestigious Christian evangelical mission, says:

    "..Yes, the Bible is human, although some out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, have denied this. Those books have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men and bear in their style the characteristics of men...."

    "It is Human, Yet Divine," W Graham Scroggie, p. 17

    Another Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, says:

    "...Not so the New testament...There is condensation and editing; there is choice reproduction and witness. The Gospels have come through the mind of the church behind the authors. They represent experience and history..."

    "The Call of the Minaret," Kenneth Cragg, p 277

    For example, we read in the Bible the words of the author of "Luke":

    "It seemed good to me (Luke) also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, (Luke 1:3)"

    If you consider the Bible the word of GOD, well, it is quite obvious that Luke decided to write his Gospel because he wanted to please the president or the
    leader at that time Theophilus. This however has several problems: (1) It compromises GOD because there is a biger purpose than GOD to write the Gospel, (2) It shows that Luke wouldn't have written his Gospel if it wasn't for that leader, and (3) Luke was not inpired when he wrote his Gospel because he said that he decided to write it after he had full understanding of it, which means that he wrote it with his own human words and thoughts and not GOD's.

    For a closer look at reliability of the NT and its development dont forget to check out Is the NT really reliable ?

    Its a nice direct answer to the highly visited "Christian Think Tank" site.
    Check out for your self BDMART.

    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_still/critbias.html

    I may go on giving you examples from all sort of biblical professors and scholars but you won't understand you rather be a sheep then a shepherd.

    Let me give you some more examples, the ones probably only 5% of the christians follows. Even thou it says in bible not to do it but 95% christians do it anyways. Since the word of God contain almost all kind of sexual activities. No offense but but when prophets and religious figures will set noble example of sexual activites then how would you expect any one not to follow them?. Since they all are biblical figures.




    About Sex & Marriage

    By Dr. Dale A. Robbins

    As a pastor for many years, I have received many questions from Christians about marriage, as well as matters that pertain to sexual behavior. The following are summarized answers to five of the most commonly asked questions on these matters, based from scripture and my pastoral experience.


    1. Is Premarital Sex Acceptable to God?


    Despite our permissive society that suggests that everyone should be sexually active, God considers premarital sex to be sin. In the Bible, the word “fornication” (Greek, PORNIEA) is used to describe premarital sex and other acts of sexual impurity. According to the Bible, God created sex to be a blessing of the union between a husband and wife, but He clearly and absolutely disapproves of all other sexual activity, including premarital sex. “Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge” (Heb. 13:4). In this age of worry about sexually transmitted diseases, there is something better than a condom that can be worn to prevent AIDS: It’s called a wedding ring! The Bible says, “...because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband” (1 Cor. 7:2).


    The Bible warns that those who continue a life-style of fornication and adultery will not inherit God’s Kingdom. “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God” (Gal. 5:19-21).


    2. Is it Acceptable for Couples to Live Together Without Marriage?


    As we know, in our present society this is a common practice by many couples. However, this is not considered acceptable to a Christian life-style for the following reasons:


    (a) Sexual Impurity -- Unmarried couples who live together usually have a sexual relationship. As already mentioned, premarital sex is sin condemned by God’s Word. If a believer wishes to be obedient to God and His will, they will refrain from sexual impurity. “For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality” (1 Thess. 4:3).


    (b) The Appearance of Sin -- Not only does the Bible teach that believers are not to live a life-style of sin, but they are even to avoid the “appearance” of sin (1 Thess. 5:22). Even if a couple does not have sexual relations while living together, sleeping in the same dwelling gives every appearance that they do.


    Regardless of whatever innocent intentions that some couples might have, the appearance of living together tends to endorse sexual impurity and sets a bad example to other Christians. We all have an obligation to our brethren, not to provide a stumbling block to their faith. “But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak... when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ” (1 Cor. 8:9, 12).


    (c) Exposure to Temptation -- Even if an unmarried couple plan to refrain from premarital sex, living together could allow temptation to compromise those standards. The Bible teaches us to flee lusts and other temptations which could cause us to sin (2 Tim. 2:22). When we give our desires over to lust and temptation, it leads to sin, and the Bible says that sin leads to death. “But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death” (James 1:14-15.


    We are taught to avoid temptation for our own sake, but should also comply as a good example for others. Even if a couple living together were strong enough to abstain from sexual relations, would those who follow their example also be able to be strong enough to overcome temptation? Set a good example for other couples in the body of Christ.

    3. Is it Permissible to Entertain Sexual Fantasies?


    The Bible says that through Christ we should bring discipline and control to our thought-life. Our thoughts should not control us, but we should rule over our thoughts. “Cast down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ” (2 Cor. 10:5). Sexual fantasizing is a symptom of lust and is not pleasing to God. It stimulates and promotes sexual anxiety, which can lead to impure behavior and fornication. Get your mind out of the gutter and discipline your thoughts on good, and holy things. “But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matt. 5:28). (Read Mark 7:21-23, Eph. 4:8.)

    4. Should a Christian Marry an Unbeliever?


    The Bible teaches that Christian believers should not enter into any type of permanent partnership with unbelievers. “Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?” (2 Cor. 6:14-15). The yoke that is referred to means the “wooden yoke” that was used to place on the necks of a team of oxen, to bind them together. Since marriage is a type of yoke which bonds two people together as one team, a marriage between a believer and unbeliever would place them in an “unequal yoke.”


    The Bible teaches that a house divided cannot stand. The success of any marriage depends on the unity and harmony of the two people. If one spouse is committed to the Lord Jesus, but the other isn’t, it will create division. “...Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand” (Matt. 12:25).


    5. How Should a Marriage Companion be Selected?


    Next to your salvation, your choice of a wife or husband is the most important decision you will ever make in your life. Marriage can be one of life’s most wonderful blessings, but it can be an endless nightmare to those who have chosen carelessly.


    (1) As in all other areas of our life, God will guide us to the right mate as we trust Him and submit to His will (Prov. 3:5). A believer should seek to marry another believer, not merely one who professes to be a Christian, but whose life also demonstrates long-term stable, Christian behavior.


    (2) Do not be led by your emotions. Infatuation is often mistaken for love. Real love is not something you “fall” into. It’s something you commit yourself to, and sacrifice yourself for.


    (3) Never marry anyone on the mere basis of their appearance, sexual appeal, or material things. Only shallow, foolish people do that. Choose a marriage companion on the basis of what’s inside their heart, not what’s on the outside.

    (4) The Bible teaches us to count the cost of all our decisions before we make them. “For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it?” (Luke 14:28). Since marriage is supposed to last a lifetime (1 Cor. 7:39), we should carefully weigh the cost. Marriage is a sacred covenant between you, your spouse and with God. It will be a lifetime of give-and-take, sharing, and compromising. Are you willing to make these sacrifices for your mate? Remember, marriage is intended to endure, whether better or worse, “til death do you part.”

    (5) A good marriage requires that Christ be the center. If He is not the center of your relationship with your companion prior to marriage, He’ll not likely be the center of your marriage later.


    (6) Short-term engagements are not a good idea. Get to know a person over a period of time. A year of friendship should be a minimum before anyone even considers marriage.


    (7) Never marry anyone on the basis that they’ll change after marriage. Bad habits often become worse, not better. People are usually “already” on their “best” behavior before marriage.


    (8) Watch and observe how your prospective mate treats their parents. Generally, the way a son treats his mother, is how he’ll treat his wife -- the way a daughter treats her father, is how she’ll treat her husband.


    (9) Do not enter into marriage without the preparation of premarital counseling from a pastor or qualified marriage counselor.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This article (VL-129) is copyrighted © by Dale A. Robbins, 1990, and is a publication of Victorious Publications, Grass Valley, CA 95949.



    Let me get back to you on sexual contents of bible. I will wait for your reponse.



    Oh and by the way when you said,

    " And come on now lets get realistic a person with any brains isn't going to try and explain this to little children. "

    Now if it is word of God and light for all humanity don't you think our children should know about eevry thing?. I don't see why not. since it is God's word and every one even children should have a right to know. Or again you like to follow the steps of fore fathers and teach what you like and leave the rest alone. Or not even mention?. Just repeat after the priest and read the selective verses all the time.
     
  19. Markx Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    970
    Care to explain these?

    I didn't change or twist the wording according to my liking. Read for your self.



    The Bible has some really weird things in it that you would really be ashamed to even share with your own little kids!. It teaches you to fantasize about women's breasts and vaginas. It also teaches you to sleep with your own sister!.



    Women's breasts are important sexual objects:

    The Bible in numerous places teaches us about women's breasts and talks about them at the same time it is talking about sexual fantasies and intercourse.

    Comparing the sister's breasts to the size of the towers:


    Let us look at the following verses: "We have a young sister, and her breasts are not yet grown. What shall we do for our sister for the day she is spoken for? (Song of Songs 8:8)" and later about the sister....."I am a wall, and my breasts are like towers. Thus I have become in his eyes like one bringing contentment. (Song of Songs 8:10)"

    Let us look at Song of Songs 4:5 "Your two breasts are like two fawns, like twin fawns of a gazelle that browse among the lilies."

    Let us look at Proverbs 5:19 "A loving doe, a graceful deer, may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be captivated by her love." Could it be meant to say "may her breasts sexually satisfy you"?

    Let us look at Song of Songs 1:13 "My lover is to me a sachet of myrrh resting between my breasts."

    Praising the bed that they had sex on:

    Let us look at Song of Songs 1:16 "How handsome you are, my lover! Oh, how charming! And our bed is verdant"

    Having sex all night long:

    Let us look at Proverbs 7:18 "Come, let's drink deep of love till morning; let's enjoy ourselves with love!"

    Let us look at Song of Songs 1:2-4 "Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth-- for your love is more delightful than wine. Pleasing is the fragrance of your perfumes; your name is like perfume poured out. No wonder the maidens love you! Take me away with you--let us hurry! Let the king bring me into his chambers. We rejoice and delight in you; we will praise your love more than wine. How right they are to adore you! " I don't think this would be appropriate for a kid under 18 to read. Also, I don't think it is appropriate to have such open sexuality in a divine book anyway.

    His right arm sexually feeling her body:

    Let us look at Song of Songs 2:6 "His left arm is under my head, and his right arm embraces me."

    Let us look at Song of Songs 3:4 "Scarcely had I passed them when I found the one my heart loves. I held him and would not let him go till I had brought him to my mother's house, to the room of the one who conceived me." So in other words, she was not married to him, and when she found him, she took him back to her bed room to have illegal sex with him? If she were married to him, she wouldn't take him to her "mother's house". She would take him to their house.

    Let us look at Song of Songs 3:10 "Its posts he made of silver, its base of gold. Its seat was upholstered with purple, its interior lovingly inlaid by the daughters of Jerusalem."

    Why does the Bible teach young men to spend all of their time and effort to try to impress all of the girls in their town so they can possibly end in bed with them?



    Fantasizing about a girl he calls his "sister". Her vagina tastes like wine for him. And they had sex all night long. After he satisfied her really good, she wished if he were her brother (her biological brother nursed by her "mother's breast" as she said) so she doesn't have to take him home secretly:

    Note: Even though she may not be his biological sister, but calling her a "sister" in a pornographic and sick situation as shown in details below is not proper, and may suggest that the sick pervert would fantasize about his biological sister if he had one.

    Let us look at Song of Songs 4:9 "You have stolen my heart, my sister, my bride; you have stolen my heart with one glance of your eyes, with one jewel of your necklace." Fantasizing about his sister? at least he shows in this verse that he would!.

    Let us look at Song of Songs 4:10 "How delightful is your love, my sister, my bride! How much more pleasing is your love than wine, and the fragrance of your perfume than any spice!" Making love to his own sister? "pleasing is your love (making???) than wine"?

    Let us look at Song of Songs 4:12 "You are a garden locked up, my sister, my bride; you are a spring enclosed, a sealed fountain."

    Sleeping with his sister: Let us look at Song of Songs 5:4 "I slept but my heart was awake. Listen! My lover is knocking: 'Open to me, my sister, my darling, my dove, my flawless one. My head is drenched with dew, my hair with the dampness of the night.' I have taken off my robe [showed off his groin in other words] must I put it on again? I have washed my feet, must I soil them again? My lover thrust his hand through the latch-opening; my heart began to pound for him." What a disgusting way for someone to talk so pervertly about his sister like that!!.

    Let us look at Song of Songs 5:8 "O daughters of Jerusalem, I charge you-- if you find my lover, what will you tell him? Tell him I am faint with love." Teaching women to be sexually too open.

    Her vagina tastes like wine: "How beautiful your sandaled feet, O prince's daughter! Your graceful legs are like jewels, the work of a craftsman's hands. Your navel is a rounded goblet that never lacks blended wine. Your waist is a mound of wheat encircled by lilies. Your breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle. Your neck is like an ivory tower. Your eyes are the pools of Heshbon by the gate of Bath Rabbi.
    .......
    I said 'I will climb the palm tree; I will take hold of its fruit.' May your breasts be like the clusters of the vine, the fragrance of your breath like apples, and your mouth like the best wine. (The NIV Bible, Song of Songs 7:1-4, 8-9)"


    According to the movie "Sex in the Bible" on A&E TV Station, the Hebrew translation to "Your naval" is referring to the woman's VAGINA. The English translators substituted the word "NAVEL" WITH "VAGINA." Please rent a copy of the movie and watch it. .


    Here is actually what this video says:

    The word navel and the umbilical cord both come from the woman's vagina since this is a natural part of childbirth."

    Whether "Naval" accurately means "vagina" or something inside the vagina it wouldn't make much difference. It just further proved how porn-full and disgusting the bible really is.

    Please answer this question for me:

    Why should vaginas and illegal sex done by unmarried lovers be talked about in a sexual fantasy in the book that is supposed to be the True Living Words of GOD Almighty from the first place?



    Now you can say oh we don't tell this to our kids and we need to be realisitc. Right?.

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    Let me give you some more on sex issue. I know I post more then you can stomach. But I hope you get back to me. If you really like to explain me or others. I hope you read throuhg them and get back to us.
    Thank you.


    20. INCEST: "Sexual intercourse between two persons who are too closely related." (New Collins Dictionary). For example, between father and daughter, son and mother, father-in-law and daughter-in-law, brother and sister, etc. INCEST IN GOD'S BOOK (?) BETWEEN A FATHER AND HIS DAUGHTERS: (a) "That night they (both the daughters of Lot) gave him (their father Lot) wine to drink and the older daughter had INTERCOURSE with him ... "The next day the older daughter said to her sister, I slept with him last night. now let's get him drunk again tonight, and you sleep with him. Then each of us will have a child by our father. So that night they got him drunk and the younger daughter had INTERCOURSE with him ... "In this way both of Lot's daughters became PREGNANT by their father. " GENESIS 19:33-35 (From the "Good News Bible- In Today's English"). In the older Versions, like the King James and the Roman Catholic Versions, "SEXUAL INTERCOURSE" is vaguely described as "COLLECTING THE SEED OF OUR FATHER." INCEST BETWEEN MOTHER AND SON: (b) "While Jacob (Israel) was living in the land, Reuben (his firstborn, his eldest son) had SEXUAL

    INTERCOURSE with Bilhah, his father's concubine. GENESIS 35:22. The older Versions of the Bible, use the word, "lay" for SEXUAL INTERCOURSE. INCEST BETWEEN FATHER-IN-LAW AND DAUGHTER-IN-LAW: (c) "When Judah saw her (Tamar, his daughter-in-law), he thought she was a prostitute, because she had covered her face. "He went over to her at the side of the road and said, "ALL RIGHT, HOW MUCH DO YOU CHARGE?" (He did not know that she was his daughter-in-law) {The words in parenthesis i.e. within brackets from He did not know to daughter-in-law are not in the original Hebrew manuscripts. They are the editors g loss.}

    "She said, what will you give me?" (To have sex with me) 'He answered, I WILL SEND YOU A YOUNG GOAT FROM MY FLOCK "She said, "All right, if you will give me something to keep as a pledge until you send the ,goat. ' . . He gave them (the pledges) to her. Then had INTERCOURSE, and she became pregnant GENESIS 38: 15-18 (Quoted from the ''Good News Bible"). CONCUBINE and WIFE are synonymous terms in the Bible. Look for it in the index under ''KETURAH" (the third wife of Abraham). Out of this incestuous relationship between a father-in-law and his daughter-in-law, twins were born, who were destined to become the great-grand-fathers of Jesus Christ see Matthew 1:3; "And Judas begat Phares and Zarah of Thamar . . . INCEST AND RAPE BETWEEN BROTHER AND SISTER (d) " . . he took hold of her (Thamar, his sister, not to be confused with Tamar in "c" above,, and said unto her, Come lie with me (have sex with me), my sister. "And she answered him, Nay, my brother (Amnon, one of the sons of David, the man after God's own heart) do not force me . . . "But he would not listen to her, and since he was stronger than she was, he overpowered her and RAPED her (his sister). " 2 Samuel 13:5-14 WHOLESALE RAPE AND INCEST BETWEEN SON AND HIS MOTHERS! (e) So they set up a tent for Absalom (another son of King David) on the palace roof, and in the sight of everyone, Absalom went in and had INTERCOURSE with his father's concubines " 2 SAMUELS 16:22

    ". . . In the sight of every one" is rendered in the King James Version as "in the sight of all Israel." This is a fulfillment of God's promise to David the King:

    "Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee (David) out of thine own house, and I will take THY WIVES before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbor (actually thy son) and he shall lie (have sexual intercourse) with thy wives in the sight of sun (for the whole world to watch the fun).

    For thou didst it secretly (with Bath-Sheba the wife of Uriah): but I will do this thing before ALL Israel, and before the sun." 2 Samuel 12:11-12



    (f) For other various types of incest see LEVITICUS 18:8-18. 20:11-14 and 17-21.



    Now please be realisitc. Since it is word of God why you be ashamed of reading it in public or churches??. One can only wonder.

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  20. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,882
    Hmm ....

    Well, let's be realistic, indeed: What sane person with any brain teaches their child that the child is evil from birth?

    It's one of the reasons I think Christian faith is dangerous. Teach your children to be evil, and they will be.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  21. Markx Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    970
    Re: Sory...

    ISMU,
    I agree with you here sir. I read Holy Quran also. I have no shame in admiting that I believe in it. I may be labled as athiest some times or christian. But I agree with you here.
    Regards
     
  22. Dracula's Guest Twisted firestarter Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    112
    Re: Big list

    Theres a site you might be interested in:
    http://www.home.earthlink.net/~robwir/devbio.html

    it proposes that the devil is a Christian invented myth, Satan in the Old Testament is never refferd to as the devil and always appears to be under control by God in some way. I think in Judaic belief Satan isnt the devil, but is simply the 'prosecutor of man'.

    http://www.beingjewish.com/basics/satan.html

    Certainly throws a fresh light on things
     
  23. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,882
    The inherent sin of humanity is a dangerous presupposition

    But it is part of the effect. Are we not born into sin? Are we not condemned by our mere conception, for we must accept Jesus Christ in order to be saved?

    And you'd be amazed at what people teach. I was at a church called New Alliance, in Salem, Oregon, one Christmas Eve and the grandmother in the scene explained to her five year-old granddaughter that we are all born full of black yucky stuff called sin which makes us bad. We need Jesus so we can be clean when we stand before God at the Judgement. This isn't entirely foreign to me in the sense that I've heard it in various forms elsewhere. The stupidity, frailty, and spiritual incompetence of humanity is the staple of American teleministries, which form a multibillion dollar industry. I mean, how harmlessly few people can generate a multibillion dollar audience? There's a bunch of them out there. Even in Lutheran confirmation and at Catholic high school, one of the questions that you simply don't get an answer to is why our need for Jesus' redemption comes down to something in the design.

    The effect of it is stupendous, and I choose that word carefully. Consider, for instance, a woman I know well: my aunt. When her marriage started to go sour, she withdrew into a conservative Lutheran sect. I'm not sure her moral bearings were proper. Case in point, and one of my favorites: it's late at night, and you're furious because your daughter is behaving like a fast girl. She's too young for this boyfriend, and you're afraid this type of bad guy will talk your little girl into having sex. Now, when you've kicked her out of the house, where exactly do you think she's going to go? I don't want to even describe the family argument I witnessed surrounding the film Last Temptation of Christ. In fact, I used that one as a slight jab to figure out where she was at in the Universe when I moved back to Seattle. I remember talking about the Peter Gabriel song It Is Accomplished while drinking beer (she was drinking tea) before a Mariners' game. Suffice to say: her marriage came back together when she stepped back out of the conservative church and returned to her more liberal Lutheran heritage and dropped some of her silly hang-ups: she took dancing lessons; they may have saved her marriage. And who says dancing is a sin?

    For instance: crack addicts. Who says they're violent? I ran into one the other morning. He was running from the cops, he thought. That's how I could tell he was cracked. And then, of course, we talked about it some. I seriously think he was running from an ambulance.

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    But it only took a couple of minutes to find him a pair of pants to replace the ones he'd ripped going over the fence, and if cigarettes and bus fare are all it takes to get this fellow sent calmly along his way, that's what it takes.

    I once heard a coworker recounting the "scary" incident I'd witnessed on the street only a few minutes before. According to the story, a cracked-up street person had accosted a woman on the street. Specifically, what happened was that a guy asked a woman for change, whereupon she began loudly berating him, including the phrases shit-stinking and f--king crackhead. I like to think I know my addicts well: this one had a fondness for liquor. Cheap wine, to judge by the circles under his eyes. What was the "accosting"? The guy eventually just yelled, Hey, I'm sorry I f--king asked, bitch! Oooh. Scary. Don't presume that you can just yell at someone because they ask for change. I can almost guarantee that they've had a worse morning than you. But I always wondered why so many people in the culture presume the worst in people. It just seems so ridiculous to waste time worrying about how everyone can hurt you.

    "They" can fly jets into "our" buildings; a karate instructor can be raped in a parking lot; the best can fall. It seems to me that no matter how much we guard ourselves, those who really want to do damage still can. The proportional odds are the same from one to the next, except that when you go forth with the presumption of distrust, you give more people a reason to wish you ill. And that is a massive factor. Much of what is wrong in American society derives from the persistent and radiant fear that comes with the Western experience. And this from a paradigm which, through the notion of sin, promotes distrust and the fear which results.

    It is a presumption of sin, not a knowledge of sin. It constitutes a superstition. It can be called ignorant in a specific sense, such as when we note that ignorance leads to fear, and fear leads to hate. This presumption of sin, this superstition of inner darkness and inherent evil, this stain of fear--it is a motivation of and justification for hatred.

    Ask yourself why we bother letting people out of prison. And then consider the number of recidivism studies. Consider three-strikes laws. Impatience serving as a solution. Hey, when these guys come out of prison, they're exactly as qualified as they were before for a proper job, and exactly as qualified for their criminal work. What if we stopped presuming the worst of these people and used the opportunity of their incarceration to raise their standards and expectations of self and world? Many prisons are figuring this out, 'tis true. But we as a culture must be prepared to accept the fact that we have an obligation to do these things. How many political presumptions of the worst? The evil welfare-mother, scourge of liberty. The drug addict. The leftist: we are not trying to overthrow the country, we are trying to save it. The pagans: we do not want to steal your children to sacrifice to our gods, we would rather they be intelligent and happy and responsible. The Christians: I'm quite sure they don't look at it as destroying the Liberty that will elevate humanity beyond its current mire. Let's see, the Jew wants my money, the Mexican wants my job, and the black man wants my stereo ... I could, however presume better of the Jew, black, and Mexican. Any one of 'em might be a grand game of nine-ball over a pint. It's all in how we choose to view the world.

    I can look at the worst in people, expect, accommodate, and respond to the worst. Or I can trust in the better qualities of the people around me. I can presume them sinners or I can presume them human. The latter option comes with less baggage. It makes people just as frustrating, but you're less prone to hold it against them personally. When they stop frustrating you, then you're not angry about it anymore. It's a little fragmentary at first, and seems to require a bit of culture shock, and even a little recoil. But eventually you get used to it and you can see the little sitcom that is life. And then, I would assert, higher standards fall into place.
    If we might, for a moment, I would like to propose that you consider it from a point of view similar to my own: I am well aware of what you advise, and actually assert that there are no actual Christians left. Rather, we don't know where those actual and real Christians are because they're smart enough to not say anything directly about it. But, to turn your perspective back over to you, What am I supposed to think when I see that consistently negative results? It tells me that there is something fundamentally wrong with the current prevailing Christian paradigm and, by my eye to history, it might be a long-running problem. The presumption of sin--the presupposition of inadequacy--is inherent to the need for redemption. If I believe Christians are wrong about their God and that their faith is misplaced, it is because the living result of that faith has produced what I consider prevailing negativity.

    Christianity does teach people to be evil; it just doesn't call it that. It's the reason God is the Judge--as we are all sinners, the presumption of sin forms a kind of judgement, and the result is a superstitious distrust of one another that results in all manner of poor decisions. The effect on society can be negative, and therefore evil. We will, as a society, set higher expectations for ourselves when great numbers of Christians abandon the notion that we are born into sin. I'll meet them halfway: give up the temporal judgement associated with it. But I do think it is the idea that inspires people to make the decisions which damage the potential of human society in the name of religious faith and the necessity of redemption.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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