A question for atheists

[Theoryofrelativity]

Cool. I think the last section may be the part you're really interested in . An damn that Wes, he duped me again! BTW, re-read my original post, I fixed some spelling & grammatical errors since you replied.

haha, Wes doesn't miss a trick.

Don't worry about spelling! I am world (or at least sci forums.........nope that honour goes to duendy) 2nd worst speller..and have to do numerous edits!

[Theoryofrelativity]

I spent an hour on my goddamned tangent. Someone read it damnit.

I have, I have! Did you read mine though?
I am absorbing all these replies, some good stuff here, I will assimialte the info and then respond accordingly.

I have not disputed what you say as the thread isn't about disputing anything , its about collecting atheists views then exploring the whole nature of 'need' for something 'more', hence I am not contradicting anything but showing appreciation, rare concept here on sci forums I know!

(Note: I argued with Q as he was trolling and trying to make this about me, which it is not)

[Crunchy Cat]

haha, Wes doesn't miss a trick.

Don't worry about spelling! I am world (or at least sci forums.........nope that honour goes to duendy) 2nd worst speller..and have to do numerous edits!

Yeah, better reply to his post or he's gonna get nerd-evil on someone's hiney

[wesmorris]

Yeah, better reply to his post or he's gonna get nerd-evil on someone's hiney

lol.

uh... well yeah. of course.

read, respond... or suffer evil nerdly comments. it's a given.

muahhahahahhahah!

*sigh*

[(Q)]

(Note: I argued with Q as he was trolling and trying to make this about me, which it is not)

Argued? Hardly, you made silly assertions, got quotes mixed up, called everyone a piss hole and then proceeded to get your sorry ass kicked! hehe

[wesmorris]

I think someone needs some goatly lovin.

[Theoryofrelativity]

"merely hope" seems condescending to me. what else is there to do? do you think "knowing (or praying, or whatever) god will intervene" is really different that "merely hoping"?

.

I replied already re the 'condescending thing' was not intentional but I get your point.

I think there is a distinct difference tho to praying or asking for help (may not necc pertain to a God as Crunchy mentioned) and hope. To me to hope something will be ok, is kind of a pessimistic hit and miss process, I cannot get comfort other than while 'I am hoping I have not yet lost hope'. When 'asking for help' the 'hope' is reinforced. I guess myself the type of person I am, I do see all possible outcomes when evaluating the success of a situation, so if it is a particulalrly bad situation and the expected outcome is NOT good, then hope alone for me would not suffice as within myself I would believe the worst case scenario is the logical one, so in cases like this, I would have to reinforce that hope, that something outside the logic of the situation, can intervene or assist. Does this make sense? This is my personal way of thinking. Basically for me, to believe in something 'more' provides me with an extra 'solution' that otherwise has not presented iteself to the problem. As Crunchy says, this 'feeling' makes me feel 'happier, reassured, comforted' and yes again as crunchy said probably addictive and hence I do not ever wish to lose this belief. It helps me greatly in times of crisis.

[QUOTE=wesmorris

They may be looking confused because it's "a figure of speech". I'd think it ob obvious they don't intend "god"... .[/QUOTE]

In the cases I mention, the people I spoke to after discussion said 'yes' afterall they do believe in 'god' they just labelled themselves (my view) prematurely without considering really what this meant to themselves and their way of viewing the world. If people only relate God to a religion, then therin a problem lies.

".
The notion of god specifically has many interesting facets though. I'm most fascinated through what I think of as an evolutionary psychology thing. From this perspective, god is a really interesting meme, regardless of the ontological status of it object.
.

The psychology has been looked at in my posts and those of Cato, Diogenes and crunchy

I skipped replying to the big bit on mind and religion, as we will end up back in a religion and god and my view of god debate and thats not the focus of this thread

[Theoryofrelativity]

It really depends on what that crisis is. I can give a better answer with an example crisis. What I can say, is that if the stress is intense, I'll apply spirituality with fantasy meditation to diffuse it. By spirituality I am talking about intense appreciation of the things I find attractive. Fantasy meditation is phrase that I coined. It's a deep and relaxing state where you can focus on fantasy experiences (visual, audio, tactile, etc. sensations). Combine that with spirituality and it's a winning combination diffuses stress and recharges you to take on the world.
ok.
-CC

Can you discuss this fantasy meditation some more? Id like to know more about that please.

I've been observing the behavior of 'believers' and 'non-believers' for quite some time to understand the same thing.

I have discovered that emotionally healthy 'believers' achieve an intense relationship with *something* and emotionally healthy 'non-believers' achieve an intense relationship with *something*.

-CC

What is the 'something' though that non believers achieve a relationship with? How would you define this 'something'?

In other words, the healthiest believers and non-belivers have an intense relationship with themselves and that's the answer. The more you exercise that relationship the more you want to because it has very positive recharging affects and the promise of a euphoric experience of feeling "one with everything" (which might even be addictive).

-CC

fascinating, and as mentioned in my reply to wes does explain my 'need' for a relationship with 'something'. Although for me it expands beyond a 'need' to 'observations', but thats not the subject of this thread! We'll save that for ToR is nuts thread as started by Q. Anyway, yes, deffinately my relationship brings me and no doubt other believers great comfort which assists with inner strength which can no doubt assist with positive thought which in itself is said to induce positive outcomes. Interesting, thank you

[cato]

Anyway, yes, deffinately my relationship brings me and no doubt other believers great comfort which assists with inner strength which can no doubt assist with positive thought which in itself is said to induce positive outcomes. Interesting, thank you

I always wondered why people could not find strength in themselves. perhaps thats the difference between a theist and an atheist, the need for something greater than themselves.

there was a thread a few months back that asked what atheists posited as "the highest power" and the response from all the atheists was to the effect of "why does there need to be a "highest power?""

I would love to ask Daniel Dennettt about that one =]

[Theoryofrelativity]

[QUOTE=cato]I always wondered why people could not find strength in themselves. perhaps thats the difference between a theist and an atheist, the need for something greater than themselves.
QUOTE]


But atheists DO have inner strength also, maybe that inner strength comes from a belief (controversial comment coming up, off top of my head) in lingering (from babyhood) in their own omnipotence?

Thre are MANY people who have the view 'it won't happen to me', maybe that view is part demonstration of this sense of self 'omnipotence'?

Maybe as long as that childhood feeling of an omnipotent being is fulfilled, then the human can be content, whether it be themselves or someone or something else they believe to be omnipotent?

Maybe those who lack inner strength lack that omnipotent substitute?

(for those of you who haven't read post 9.38am..this will not make any sense!)

[Crunchy Cat]

Can you discuss this fantasy meditation some more? Id like to know more about that please.

Maybe you find the idea of flying through the solar system attractive. Maybe you want to be a werewolf or a jar of mayonase. Maybe you want to be nuclear fusion or witness evolution over billions of years. The idea is taking that attractive 'want' and modeling a whole experiential reality of it in your mind. It's like a day-dream but alot better because you're in the relaxed state of meditation. It gets you closer to hypnogigia (you might even be able to achieve that but that risks falling asleep). Regardless, by surrounding yourself with great experiences, stress melts away and you become nice and recharged. For me anywhere between 5-30 minutes usually suffices quite nicely.

What is the 'something' though that non believers achieve a relationship with? How would you define this 'something'?

It's themselves (same thing for the belivers). The desire for that relationship exists with all humans.

fascinating, and as mentioned in my reply to wes does explain my 'need' for a relationship with 'something'. Although for me it expands beyond a 'need' to 'observations', but thats not the subject of this thread! We'll save that for ToR is nuts thread as started by Q. Anyway, yes, deffinately my relationship brings me and no doubt other believers great comfort which assists with inner strength which can no doubt assist with positive thought which in itself is said to induce positive outcomes. Interesting, thank you

You're most welcome.

[Theoryofrelativity]

Maybe you find the idea of flying through the solar system attractive. Maybe you want to be a werewolf or a jar of mayonase. Maybe you want to be nuclear fusion or witness evolution over billions of years. .

Hmmmmm, I have been engaging in this for yrs then

In the past mainly during school assembly! I'd be doing some sort of trapeze act on the hanging flourescent lights!

[cato]

I don't think it is the same with atheists. there was a study that showed that atheists generally have weaker connections with their fathers. I could not find it, I will look again later.

(15 minutes later)
http://www.probe.org/content/view/36/91/
here is an article about it. the article is by a religious institution, and obviously biased. however, if you read past the biased analysis, you can see that there is likely a connection between one's relationship with their father, and their beliefs. the article tries to imply that atheism is a mental disorder, brought on by a poor relationship with one's father. however, the information, when taken objectively, supports the possibility that someone who is a more self-reliant/independent, is more likely atheist. furthermore, someone who is reliant on their parents, may have a psychological need for something greater, and that need is carried over to religion/god.

to summarize, perhaps one has less control over what one believes that they think. perhaps it's just part of one's personality. independent minded people are more likely atheists, people who need to (for lack of better term) "run in a pack" tend to be religious.

or maybe atheists, either subconsciously or consciously, believe they are better than everything else, even god =]

[Theoryofrelativity]

I don't think it is the same with atheists. there was a study that showed that atheists generally have weaker connections with their fathers. I could not find it, I will look again later.

(15 minutes later)
http://www.probe.org/content/view/36/91/
here is an article about it. the article is by a religious institution, and obviously biased. however, if you read past the biased analysis, you can see that there is likely a connection between one's relationship with their father, and their beliefs. the article tries to imply that atheism is a mental disorder, brought on by a poor relationship with one's father. however, the information, when taken objectively, supports the possibility that someone who is a more self-reliant/independent, is more likely atheist. furthermore, someone who is reliant on their parents, may have a psychological need for something greater, and that need is carried over to religion/god.

to summarize, perhaps one has less control over what one believes that they think. perhaps it's just part of one's personality. independent minded people are more likely atheists, people who need to (for lack of better term) "run in a pack" tend to be religious.

or maybe atheists, either subconsciously or consciously, believe they are better than everything else, even god =]

doesn't this support the thing about kids believing their parents are omnipotent, if the kids have no such feelings as children due to poor family connections, then this feeling (the need for an omnipotent parent) perhaps does not develop and so they are less predisposed to the influence or need for a 'god' figure as adults, thus atheist?

Meanwhile I am independant, did not have father figure, but am not atheist, although I do reject religion and my god views are shall we say 'alternative'

[cato]

yes, I didn't mean for it to oppose your post, it was merely an addition to your post. rather than saying that its the family connections that make a person atheist, perhaps it is the person's natural personality that will effect their connections and religious beliefs. rather than one causing the other, they both might be caused by something else. correlation, but not causation between connections and religious beliefs.

[Theoryofrelativity]

yes, I didn't mean for it to oppose your post, it was merely an addition to your post. rather than saying that its the family connections that make a person atheist, perhaps it is the person's natural personality that will effect their connections and religious beliefs. rather than one causing the other, they both might be caused by something else. correlation, but not causation between connections and religious beliefs.

I know you weren't opposing just reinforcing this link for other members who may have missed this line of enquiry.

Definately some people are followers and others leaders. I know a few muslims who have rejected their substantial brainwashing as kids and become atheists, so again can't be all about brainwashing? They reject all notion of 'anything' more. There was a specific trigger for this though , in that they felt let down by that omnipotent figure in times of crisis. A child rejecting its parent?

Interesting topic, I'm enjoying thanks

[Roman]

Dear Tor,
Please ignore (Q). He's an atheist a-hole. I pray for him everyday, in hopes that he will see the light of Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Savior, though I do take a certain perverse pleasure in knowing that he'll burn in hell for eternity.

Seriously, I find a few things really difficult to discuss on sciforums. Well, just two. One is race and the other is religion. With race, it's either "everyone's identical now shut your pie hole" or "negros be real stupid. now shut that cake hole." Only if you fill it with confectionary!

What I find most interesting about discussing religion with these evangelical atheists, is all the baggage they carry with it. (Q), here, identifies so strongly with his non-God that he reacts to anything that raises doubts of a non-entity as if he himself were attacked. He behaves as a Christian defending his irrational faith, rather than critically viewing his own beliefs and culture about them.

I see so many atheists obsessed over God (or rather, the lack of one), that they behave as a religioso. In many cases, it appears to be more a social reaction than one that involves thinking. Again, let's take (Q) as our example. Rather than entertain any notions about anything, he immediately became hostile and spouted the typical atheist creed of "I think, therefore no god, parrotparrotparrot. You don't think, theist. Neener neener." He could have been saying "Repent, sinner! Godsagunnagetyooooo!" Alright mang, whatev.

God has no role in my life, even his non-existence. I don't have any need to push on anyone my beliefs about something that doesn't exist. I'd much rather spend my time convincing girls to sleep with me than the fact that their skylord is, in fact, delusion.

And I don't even think about God much, except sometimes as an interesting social meme. Like, let's look at religion and how it functions for people the world over. It's actually pretty cool stuff. But then, people like (Q) or some Christian whacko miss out on all that, tied up with their dogma and ego.

I guess I'm just a non-thinker. Roman doesn't give a fuck.

Praying to God, even as an atheist. Hmm.... I think (Q) here has never actually been in a truly stressful situation. Well, let's talk about me first.

I do outdoorsy stuff. I come from Alaska, born and raised. I've been charged by moose, stalked by grizzlies, flipped in big rivers, swum rapids, crossed glaciers with a bike around my neck, climbed mountains and drank so much that I thought I was gonna die.

Rafting, I think, is the most dangerous, most stressful, and what I enjoy most. There's an elegance to the subtle, inarticulate positions and stokes one can use to skirt holes and boulders or bust out of eddy pools. There's decisions and planning, but one doesn't have much time for either. You see, you react. Make a poor decision, and it's going to an icy cold consequence. You simply don't have time to hope or pray, it's blade in, blade out, digdigdig, and if you fail, brace for the shock, don't lose your paddle. Without confidence, one hesitates, and hesitation means you kill yourself on a sweeper.

But prior to a big rapid, the kind you can hear two bends away, frothing and churning, that's when you start wishing God answered prayers. Hope that things go well. There's the "Roman, don't fuck up" talk, of course, but still, a wishing that things go well. Hope's an emotion, not a thought.

God's a grander expanse of hope. It takes the unknown, the future, the uncertain, and puts it the hands of one force. 4 am and I'm solo on a mountain top. It's the dead of winter, I'm underdressed, no gear. Wind howls over icy rocks and I trigger small avalanches. Things are pretty clutch. And when I think "God, don't let me die up here my mom can't find my body," I know there's no God. There's no help coming. There wouldn't be any help if I fell. In the spring, maybe a hiker would find my broken corpse, sockets picked clean by ravens. But that still doesn't change the fact that that's what I feel when under extreme duress. An intense desire that dawn doesn't find my body in a snowchoked gulley. The phrase "God, please..." isn't an appeal to God-capital-G, it's more of an expression of "Dont' die don't die don't die. Don't die." Anthropomorphized fate, I guess.

*shrugs*

May the Force be with ya'll– err, may the Blood of the Lamb wash away your sins, you horrible people.

[Athelwulf]

When a relative is ill, or in an accident, do you merely hope they will get better? When sitting exams you merely hope you will do well?

Yup, and yup.

What runs through your minds in times of great personal crisis?

My mind is usually totally consumed by the situation when I'm experiencing a great crisis.

[SnakeLord]

When a relative is ill, or in an accident, do you merely hope they will get better?

Instead of just 'hoping', I tend to take them to a doctor. Being the kind of guy I am, I also like to research the specific problem to see what the general outcome is. It also provides me with the ability to understand what doctors are saying, what options the patient has and so on.

I'm sure some would prefer to sit down and hold their hands near their mouths. My way certainly appears to be more beneficial in the long run.

When sitting exams you merely hope you will do well?

No. I study.

What runs through your minds in times of great personal crisis?

Generally something like: "oh shit, this is fucked up".

Hope that helps.

[(Q)]

Dear Tor,
Please ignore (Q). He's an atheist a-hole. I pray for him everyday, in hopes that he will see the light of Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Savior, though I do take a certain perverse pleasure in knowing that he'll burn in hell for eternity.

I rule your hell.

Again, let's take (Q) as our example. Rather than entertain any notions about anything, he immediately became hostile and spouted the typical atheist creed of "I think, therefore no god, parrotparrotparrot. You don't think, theist. Neener neener." He could have been saying "Repent, sinner! Godsagunnagetyooooo!" Alright mang, whatev.

Was that a brain fart?

Like, let's look at religion and how it functions for people the world over. It's actually pretty cool stuff.

Yeah, pretty cool stuff.

Praying to God, even as an atheist. Hmm.... I think (Q) here has never actually been in a truly stressful situation.

I do outdoorsy stuff. ... drank so much that I thought I was gonna die.

Rafting, I think, is the most dangerous, most stressful, and what I enjoy most.

You go rafting?!? Are you insane, man?!? And then you get drunk?!?

Nope, you're right, I'll never compete with rafting and drinking, you most certainly have me there. Waaay too stressful!

Do you rememeber to cut the crotch out of your pantyhose before you go?