Do you support wind power?

Discussion in 'Earth Science' started by Facial, May 4, 2006.

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In general, do you support construction of wind turbines?

  1. Yes.

    9 vote(s)
    69.2%
  2. No.

    4 vote(s)
    30.8%
  1. Facial Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,225
    This is stimulated by the other thread.

    Do you support the construction of wind turbines to harness wind power?
     
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  3. phlogistician Banned Banned

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    10,342
    Yes, they are free, clean energy. I don't think they are the entire solution, however.
     
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  5. Laika Space Bitch Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    638
    I support small wind turbines for disseminated power generation - along with solar cells. But it's my understanding that wind farms need a back-up power plant of the same wattage for when the wind isn't blowing. The back-up needs to be ticking over constantly, so it seems to defeat the object.
     
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  7. Andre Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    889
    A wind turbine could be a good solution for an odd lonely ranch in the middle of nowhere, defeating the problems of electricity transportation however in high density urban area it's definitely high in the top ten of the the biggest mistakes ever.

    A wind turbine has some mega watt yield and can support so many thousend families. Okay, that is if it's operating constantly, not under maintenance or under unfavorable wind conditions. A nearly constanly operating nuclear power plant has some giga watt yield and can support so many million families. And if there is not enough wind (or too much) you'd still need the other plants to prevent the lights from going out.

    In warm conditions the propellors of wind turbines quickly accumulate insect pollution (like the windscreen of your car) and drops about 50% in effectiveness until the next scheduled cleaning (down-) time.

    Building a windmill, operating and maintaining it and removing it at the end of the life time all cost energy, starting with the engines that harvest the raw materials etc. For how many wind mills can you build and maintain a nucleair plant? All those problems cause the wind electricity to be triple the prize of conventional electricity here in this country.

    Birds generally do not collide with the turbine blades although it has happened frequently. They will normally learn to avoid the wind parks and consequently the meadows underneath them, depriving them of food sources and effectivily reducing the size of biotopes of a lot of birds.

    Oh and it's admitted now, wind turbines pollute the landscape and make too much noise for comfort in a habited area.

    But the wind merchants laugh as they are becoming millionaire so easily with all the support of the greens.
     
  8. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,198
    As you probably know, I too am a support of well done nuclear power - like the French do it, not like it is done in US where plants, only partially completed, get put on line-on on 31 December (like three mile island was*) to get included in the PSC's rate base for next year etc.).

    You comments about insects increasing surface roughness, dropping efficiency are new to me. I can believe them in the small machine ranges (blades less than 5 meters) as I know that surface roughness on an air foil is very important, but is this 50% reduction still true for a megawatt machine? - I find that hard to believe.

    I think you are wrong about the birds avoiding the whole areas of the wind farm. True, they will avoid the blades and perhaps even the high noise areas, but I expect they will soon learn that the noise does not hurt, just as a crow can soon learn the scarecrow is a nice place to rest, safe from dogs etc. Birds, especially the larger soaring ones are very sensitive to wind currents (Much better than the instruments man has invented to put into gliders.) That is the reason few are killed by the blades. I have made this point before to some "bird lover" who was speaking against wind mills (Where they make economic sense - I am all for them.) I pointed out to him, in jest, that a true bird lover would paint his windows black (as windows easily kill 1000 times more birds per square meter) and install a small wind mill in the backyard. that will mill could partially make up for the extra lighting required with windows painted black, but more importantly to true bird lover, it could improve the gene pool of the birds by eliminating the very dumb or defective ones.

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    I also think cows will not have problems eating the grass in the wind farm fields. Etc.

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    *The lack of some cooling pumps there was not the problem as I understand it but could have been, or made it worse, and clearly illustrates what is most important consideration in the US's foolish approach to nuclear power. The idea that the CEO has the final say on how the control room is laid out etc. is ridiculous. - they are all the same in France for each of the few government designs that exist. - When experts come in to help with a problem, they do not need to be shown around by the locals before they can help with the problem. Sometimes a few minutes can be important, etc.!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2006
  9. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,198
    That would be true if you are a farmer in Kansas, far from the power grid and have a wind power system only to save on diesel fuel for your generator, but not if you are on the grid. There you may be able, if local PSC has set rate schedules up properly, to "run your meter backwards" (not literally usually) when you have excess wind power and rely on the grid when you do not. I some cost/pricing schemes, it may even pay to install more wind system than you will need on the avearge and get a check from the power company each month* as well as a sense of independance from it.

    If you are speaking on bigger scale, - wind power's contribution to the nation - then again you need to recognize that the smallest national grid covers many US states. It is very rare that none of the wind machines will be supplying power to the grid and it NEVER DROPS to zero in a step function. There is plenty of time to increase the out put of others as the wind input slowly drops. (Over hours when you are talking about 10 or more states in the grid and much of the drop is very regular, as the sun goes down - wind is fundamentally the result of differential solar heating and not much differential thermal input at night, but you can still have economically useful winds at night.)
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    * I admit that alot of this is "funny economics" as the government tries to use the tax laws to promote things. - I am against that. Taxes should be only to pay for government services etc., not a complex set of special rules, designed mainly for the rich and lawyers. - did any one say "oil depletion allowance" etc.?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2006
  10. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,865
    I'm in favour of wind power, with a few conditions:
    1. The government doesn't own it.
    2. The government doesn't subsidize it.
    3. The turbines are located far from any substantial population.

    The government should be discontinuing fossil fuel generation and investing in the French model for nuclear energy Billy mentioned, as they have the most advanced tech in this area.

    The best places for wind power in Ontario (where I live) are the shores and islands of the great lakes - the eastern shores of Georgian Bay and Huron for example. Other locales don't get enough strong consistant airflow.
     
  11. vslayer Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,969
    wave power is a better alternative energy system, there are plans that 1/3 of auckland(popn 2 million) will be powered by wave power generators in 5 years time. as opposed to methane producing hydro dams which provide the majority of power at the moment(backed up by natural gas stations in the north island)
     
  12. Andre Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    889
    Insects can halve wind-turbine power

    But reading the article, "halve" seems to be slightly exagarated.
     
  13. valich Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,501
    Turbines can be constructed to prevent birds from flying into them.

    The only problem that I can see with wind turbines is that they should not be built in an area where they interfere with the appreciation of the beauty of the natural surrounding area - such as in a national or state park or UNESCO site. Aside from that, let the wind blow.
     

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