I just ran accross a very intresting new story from the Sudan, about how it seems the Islamic Leadership feels about the equality of women, and what they will do to anyone who upsets that beleaf, Sudan Islamist branded apostate for pro-women comments KHARTOUM (AFP) - A Sudanese Islamist leader who once protected Al-Qaeda supremo Osama bin Laden was branded an apostate by the country's Muslim scholars for taking a liberal stand on women's rights. The clerics proposed trying Hassan al-Turabi for apostasy following recent declarations by the Popular Congress Party leader that women were equal to men, had the right to marry a Christian or a Jew and could even lead prayers. "Turabi should declare repentance or face the Sharia Hadd for heresy," said the statement by the Muslim Scholars Committee, which has the support of the government and controls many of the country's mosques. Hadd is a word in Islamic law that applies to punishments inflicted for some of the most serious offenses. The traditional punishment for heresy or apostasy in Sharia law is the death penalty. During a conference in Khartoum earlier this month, Turabi -- the country's most famous Muslim theologian -- sparked an intense debate by expressing liberal views on Sudanese society and Islam. The white-turbaned 74-year-old cleric described the Muslim teachings that a Muslim woman should not marry a Christian or a Jew as "backward" and that adherence to such principles was aimed at hampering women's rights. He sanctioned mixed prayers so long as men and women did not sit too close to each other, in order to avoid "arousing sexual feelings" that could distract worshippers from their praying. Turabi, who spent several years aggressively promoting a hardline Islamist ideology, also said a woman's testimony was worth a man's and even more in cases when a woman commands superior expertise in a specific field. Once the power behind President Omar al-Beshir's throne, Turabi fell from grace in 2000 and was detained several times. He was last released in June 2005 and remains one of Sudan's leading opposition figures. It was on Turabi's advice that former Sudanese president Jaafar Nimeiri ordered in 1985 the execution by hanging at age 75 of Mahmud Mohammed Taha for refusing to recant his unorthodox views on Islam. Taha, who founded the Republican Brothers organisation and held liberal views notably on the place of women in society, was then Turabi's arch rival. The Islamist leader now faces a taste of his own medicine but defiantly reiterated his views several times in recent interviews and lectures, sparking the ire of Muslim traditionalists worldwide. He hit back at his critics Saturday night during a gathering at the University of Khartoum, accusing them of defending "stale ideas". He justified his statement on marriage by explaining that Christians and Jews are "People of the Book" and therefore not infidels. Turabi also advocated dialogue with the West in order to improve the image of Islam and stressed that jihad (holy war) should only be waged "in self-defence and not in aggression against others." He deplored that the West had "a wrong idea and a bad image of Islam". "We seek to present a good model and I have even spoken with the Pope on this matter," he added. It was Turabi, then the eminence grise of Beshir's Islamist regime, who invited bin Laden to Sudan in 1990 and provided him with a safe haven from 1991 to 1996, when the Al-Qaeda chief was eventually expelled under mounting international pressure on Khatoume. (04-23-06)
Islam takes the line that men and women are both equal, and that we have qualities, roles and responsibilities that are both different and the same. These are rulings given by God, not to oppress people, but to protect us from anything harmful. Islam does state that Muslim women should not marry non-muslim men, including other believers such as Christians or Jews. This is a practical issue more than anything, as Muslims have a duty to raise their children as Muslims, and as parents are the primary teachers of their children, they both need to be on the same page. Also it would be inappropriate for a Muslim woman to agree to the wishes of her husband if he held Christian values (or other beliefs), as they would contradict her own Islamic values, and this would be a source of conflict, and could also be an example of shirk (the sin of attributing partners to Allah). A Muslim woman is allowed to lead prayers (and become an imam) if the congregation is all female, but in a mixed congregation it's considered inappropriate as she'll have to bend down in front of men, which will compromise her modesty and dignity. Historically, Muslim women have been some of the best Islamic scholars, particularly Aisha (RA), wife of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). http://www.islamfortoday.com/womenscholars.htm "Treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers." - Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in his Last Sermon. "None but a noble man treats women in an honorable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully." - Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) (At-Tirmithy) According to Abdullah ibn Mas'ud, the Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said: "If a daughter is born to a person and he brings her up, gives her a good education and trains her in the arts of life, I shall myself stand between him and hell-fire." (Kanz al-Ummal) 'Islam means the submission of humankind to the will of God, not the submission of women to the will of men.' I would say that women actually have more rights under Islam, than in other cultures. For instance, Muslim women have the right to choose to get married or not and they have the right to choose who they get married to, and also the right to ask for a divorce. As a wife, Muslim women have the right to be fully supported financially by their husbands, and they have the right to choose not to share their house with other family members. They also have the right to work outside of the home, and they have the exclusive right not to contribute any of their income to the household, as this is the sole responsibility of the husband. Muslim women have the right to own, sell and inherit property (which was illegal in the West until about 100 years ago), and they also have the right to own and run businesses. The first wife of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was also his employer, a very successful businesswoman, and 15 years older than him. More on women's rights in Islam: http://islam101.com/women/womlib.html http://majlis.freeyellow.com/Woman.html
Funny how muslim men are allowed to "take" women from whatever country they are destabilizing and attempting to overthrow, whether they are Christians, Jews, Buddists or Hindus. They invade a country "by force" or "increace their numbers and take it by marriage". At which point when they have sufficient numbers they can claim they are not terrorists but freedom fighters, wanting only a seperate state or piece of the nation for their people to live. Then when that is achieved they destabilize the whole nation from within and through civil war take the whole country....declaring it a muslim nation and changing the name into one with a name ending with -stan...., like Kurdistan, or Pakistan. One country after another is added to the list each year, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, the former states of the Soviet union, all fall by the same method under the black robes of oppression, through lies, murder of innocent children, abuse of women, and destuction of individual freedom and hope. The rest of the non-muslim world is not so naive to your ways as you would suppose, my muslim friend.
Just to correct some of your misinformation: 1. If you had read my post you would have understood that a woman has the right to choose who she marries, and that marriage must always be by consent. A Muslim man can not 'take' a Muslim woman or any other woman to be his wife, and by the same token, neither a man nor a woman can be forced or coerced into converting to Islam: "There is no compulsion in religion" [Qur'an 2:256] 2. Wars of aggression go against the guidance within both the Qur'an and Sunnah. A war can only be waged in self-defense or for the purpose of overthrowing an oppressor of Muslims. Allah also forbids Muslims from attacking anyone who allows others to live in peace: "And fight in God's cause against those who wage war against you, but do not commit aggression - for, verily, God does not love aggressors." [Qur'an 2:190] 3. The guidance for Muslims in battle, since the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), has always been that civilians (men, women and children), people engaged in religious worship, and even animals and trees are all protected from the destruction of warfare. Muhammad (pbuh) said, "If even a little sparrow has been killed unjustly, it will appear before the Lord of the worlds crying for justice!" (An-Nasa'i, Ad-Darami, and Ahmad) 4. The only nation that has recently invaded another nation by force, destabalising it from within, creating a situation of civil war through the murdering, torture, rape and abuse of its men, women and children, and the only nation that has labelled men as terrorists who defend their country from foreign invaders, is the USA. 5. The suffix 'stan' is an ancient Persian (Iranian) or Farsi word meaning country, nation, land, or 'place of', eg. Afghanistan means 'land of the Afghans'. The origins of the Persian languages, part of the Indo-European languages, date back thousands of years, pre-dating Islam. http://worldatlas.com/aatlas/infopage/stan.htm 6. Each 'Muslim nation', from Morocco to Indonesia, has a completely unique history of its own, with very different types of government, and a variety of ethnicities, languages and cultural influences within each one. 7. Long before a white Euro-American 'settler' had killed his first native American, Islam had arrived in South East Asia. Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines, to a greater or lesser extent, have all known Islam since the 14th century. The Central Asian nations (such as Turkmenistan) which were former states of the Soviet Union, were Muslim and Orthodox Christian lands long before Marx had even been born. All of these nations fell under the oppression of either European colonialism or communism, yet their Muslim people remained faithful to Islam throughout. (MashaAllah) Peace.
I wonder when Goeff is going to spring up!!!??!!! _Passerby you are quite correct. hopefully the guy from Sudan will be ok, we need more people to speak about more progressive forms of Islam, rather than the old dogmatic stuff
Passerby, read my post, and then explane why? The clerics proposed trying Hassan al-Turabi for apostasy following recent declarations by the Popular Congress Party leader that women were equal to men, had the right to marry a Christian or a Jew and could even lead prayers. "Turabi should declare repentance or face the Sharia Hadd for heresy," said the statement by the Muslim Scholars Committee, which has the support of the government and controls many of the country's mosques.
We need more muslims like al-Turabi, if he is being genuine and their is no hidden agenda, to challenge the muslim leaders from within rather than non muslims challenging us. It is claer the time has come for a new progressive approach to take shape. or else we are all fucked!!!!
Perhaps this is not a fight for us westerners, afterall we don't understand this religion so they claim, it's a peacefull religion so they claim, it's all false propaganda by the west to fool us to believing islam is evil, so they say, how about hearing from a few who have left the fucking religion of death? click Leaving Islam Apostasy and Human Rights Ayaan Hirsi Ali : : A Muslim Woman Speaks Out Oh! just tell me passerby you pathetic little shit that the above woman is lying! Though abuse of women happens in every society, every religion, let us not be fooled by the so called islamocultists that their religion is not affected by this phenomena. Wife Abuse in the Muslim Community Discrimination of women and child abuse (Warning graphic pictures of these bastards handy work) This great religion of peace. *VOA News-Pakistan Just push play, and hear in her own language. Just tell me little shits muslim jackass who have infested this site, that she speaks bull shit!. Religion of peace MyASS! Ref. Oh! aren't these assholes so peacefull? Islam the religion of pedophelia, started by a fucking pedophile no less click I'm tired of this peacefull religion. Godless
Do you have to be so aggressive rude and insulting Godless I agree with you, this is not a fight all us westerners (just some - the muslim ones), and shit dare i say it there are tons of European and US born muslims. it is something us muslims have to sort out. Unfortunately muslims at the moment have extremely dispicable leaders ( quite a lot of them but obviously not all of them in the entirety)both political and religous who do shit for their own agendas and are hell bent on causing maximum shit. Once we ahve our own ship in order then we will progress. On of my main beefs at the moment is Wahhbism, please see my thread called "is there no stopoping these idiots" at http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=54198 These bunch of fuckwits need to be sorted out for starters. Intolerant parnoid fucks they are
Sorry Zac, rudeness in the face of idiotic bs, is my nature. I find all religion repulsive, manupaltive, evil, and a main factor of why things are going to shit, in the world today. The world's population would greatly advance without the rhetorical fantacy bullshit of religion. Science, and today's technological, medical advances have proven that. BTW did you see the video? Godless
i hope to peruse the links today, but have not done yet. I am not sure the world will progress without religion as it is in the nature of man to manipulate others into doing what they want. if there was no religion there will be something else these fuckers would use as a vechile/channel to achieve more power, money etc,....
Buffalo: The story you quoted was from Sudan, a country which has, let's face it, been backwards even before Islam was introduced. Islam is merely used as a justification for the mistreatment and slavery of women over there. Islam's attitude towards women in general varies. While men in the Arab world (even non-Muslims) tend to be more chauvanistic in the West, the fact still remains that the only places where women are treated like animals and slaves are some of the Gulf states (not including Iraq). Generally, women in non-Gulf countries (expect Iraq) can become doctors, scientists and engineers. In fact, one of Saddam's top scientists in his Weapon's Program was a woman. I doubt that there is 'equality' between the sexes per se, but many countries all over the world still suffer from gender equality. Muslim countries are often the victims of exaggeration and misconceptions.
it is extremely hard to imagine a world without religion, I'm not too sure what you say is true, though at one point just as we are now realizing the evil of religion so shall we realize who really holds the power "these fuckers" which are few compared to plain civilians, or the majority of the world's population. What ya think? No corporation can "manipulate me" to buy their product, I buy gas cause it makes my car go, I can't control the prize of gas, but I can control the amount of my comsumption. No government can manipulate me, I live in a country, but as long as I'm not held against my will, i'm free to leave, If I find I don't like the way things are going, I can also voice my opinions as long as I'm aloud to do so, fortunately in this country I am, and I'm willing to bet many Americans would fight to keep that right. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Godless
The only question I have for you now is; Does the woman in the video exaggerating? Now I know all muslims are not alike, heck there are a few good ones, "the one's who leave the freaking religion" Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Yea, these are the moral ones, these people profess their views of their religion, are we to judge them as exaggerating? Most of my sources if you cared to pay attention are from former islamics, are they exaggerating? or they just lived it, and are fucking fed up with it, and finally have the guts to speak out! Godless
you are exactly the kind of muslim the islamic faith needs. i am positive that no one wants islam to disappear but there are plenty that want islam to be less extreme it's people like you zakariya that give me hope that we can indeed come to grips with the worlds religions
The only way to come to grips with the world's religion is to eradicate them. Politically people can solve and come to agreements to solve their greavences, religiously there will always be conflict of interest that will lead to war. Proven by non-other then history itself. Here ya go Zac, this message for you: About Faith Freedom International Islamic terrorism is inspired by Islamic teachings. We can never get rid of Islamic terrorism unless we defeat the ideology behind it and that is Islam itself. Islam induces hate backed by lies. Muhammad was a terrorist by his own admission. All Muslims, to the extent that they follow him, are terrorists. Those Muslims who are not terrorists are ignorant of Islam and are not good Muslims. Fortunately they are the majority. We need to rescue them. If you are a good human being, you are not a Muslim. Read this site and if you can't prove me wrong, which you certainly can't, leave this deceitful cult of hate and terror and join mankind. Don't be part of the Umma. Umma is fascism. It is divisive. It induces the hatred of others. Be part of humanity instead. Your ignorance is not an excuse. Pull your head out of the sand and face the truth, like we did. Faith Freedom International is a grassroots worldwide movement of ex-Muslims and all those who are concerned about the rise of the Islamic threat. We want to bring humanity together, not by introducing yet another doctrine, which always ends up dividing mankind more, but by eliminating the doctrines that divide us. We want to abolish this evil 'Muslim vs. Kafir" dichotomy. Mankind is one family. Don't let narcissist men like Hitler and Muhammad sunder us with their big lies. Don't become the victim of the "divide and rule" policy of a psychopath. Faith Freedom stands for freedom of faith. We are against Hate, not Faith. We revere human rights not human beliefs. We endeavor to be factually correct, not politically correct. Do your part! Let this message out. Let us eradicate Islam and bring mankind together - the way God intended. Islam is the cancer of humanity. We can get rid of it. There is nothing we humans can't do. Mountains move aside to make way for those who are determined. click Godless
godless you cannot possibly be american and preach the eradication of one or the other religion after all that is one thing america stands for is religious freedom
I'm American, but did I say "eradicate religion by force?" NO! I merely responded to your statement, thus it's my opinion. Even here in the states today we have minor conflicts between religions sects, though they know the rules of the game, laws protect us from them becoming violent, but you should also know that they have, often times become violent acts of agression, church burning, mosques, Jewish Synagogues, killing abortion doctors, religious political agendas, see were I'm going with this? We have conflict of interest in religiousity even in our "free" society. We in order to survive as a human species, will need to eradicate religion by education, religion stagnates our natural human evolutionary technological development. Already seen in the fight agains stem cell research, and many other topics of "religious ethics" that conflict with science development. I just went to the Freedom From Religion website, look at the introduction page. http://www.ffrf.org/index.php See what I mean?, already we are loosing our rights of a free secular nation, under the banner of religion. It's their nature to control by force, hence the only way to be safe from religion oppression is to eradicate the fucking cults. All of them, not just Islam, Christianity what have ya! no eradicate the fary tale BS, and we shall see a free society. Godless
