02-20-06, 08:05 AM #1
Opposite of logic?
Within my studies I have been led to a place where one may not use logic to discover truth. So, does anyone know of any way I may learn truth, without using logic, or should we consider that to study 'the reverse' of logic is to presume a logical content of that study? Put simply; by searching for the opposite of logic are we using logical study here to find truth?
Any ideas anyone?
02-20-06, 08:21 AM #2
Where is this place?
Are you talking about the absence of logic, or the opposite of logic. They are not the same, yet you appear to equate them. Is this because you are now in a place where logic does not exist?
02-20-06, 08:21 AM #3
Hi Spectrum, what you might like to do---i am. issss, see how limited is the accepted NOTION of logic. for example i have just begun reading a book--a beautiful looking book, and its aim is also beautiful. wanna know what it is?
it/s titled Critique of Patriarchal Reason, by Artur Evans, with artwork by Frank Pietronigro
her's abit from back of book----'A philosopher and an artist join hands in tis book to reclaim philosphy as an art...Their book shows how patriarchal biases haveinfected formal logic, higher mathematics, and the scientific method. It demonstrates the harmful impact of tese biases on women, gay people, artists, indigenos societies, and the natural environment. In place of these biases, the book offers a new, liberating view of the role of reason in human life...." dont know where you are. i'm in UK, and had wanted this book for ages. theonly source in UK--rare books quoted me £40 for a copy. sos i got a friend to order it from here www.alibris.com and i got this lovely book for just over £11......!!
btw its ISBN is 0964538415
now somepersonal thoughts about what yous askin
i see logic as NOT opposite but like all seeming oppo-sites is kind of intermigled throughut the complimentary preocess. so for example, as Chos Theory has shown, what MAY seem like chaos--defined as meaningless mess by limited logic--is in fact a very complex...? what efer you wanna call it, which can bifurcate into nocel new ways of forms and experiences etc
psychedelic experience is a great example of this. have you had psychedelic experience?
02-20-06, 08:31 AM #4
from my experiences, the opposite of logic, is instinct, natural flow, logic requires calculation/free thought. premeditation,
you could say instinct is a type of logic, a subconscious instinctive logic for survival,
but i assume the logic you speak of is in the terms of human logic, and what seems logical to us,
i believe non thought, going with the natural flow of a situation is the opposite to deciding a choice due to logic,
natural built in reaction,
02-20-06, 08:43 AM #5Posted by Ophiolite
Where is this place?Are you talking about the absence of logic, or the opposite of logic. They are not the same, yet you appear to equate them.Is this because you are now in a place where logic does not exist?
Duendy and EmptyforceofChi: thanks for your posts, I liked what you put but I haven't got time to reply right now, but I will try in the future.
02-20-06, 06:49 PM #6Within my studies I have been led to a place where one may not use logic to discover truth. So, does anyone know of any way I may learn truth, without using logic, or should we consider that to study 'the reverse' of logic is to presume a logical content of that study?
Now someone tries to find the capital of New York and goes to the same calculator in search of the truth. He then punches in numbers trying to find the answer. Did he do this because he's absent of logic? No, he did this because he doesn't know better, its called ignorance and even in one's ignorance logic still exists.
So no, under no circumstance is there an absence of logic, only in the artificial world can truth be reached without it. But then again, technology is just a by product of our own logic and imprinted with it too, so is it not still using logic? I think to some degree it is
02-20-06, 07:12 PM #7
Originally Posted by Spectrum
02-21-06, 01:37 AM #8
Originally Posted by Spectrum
Paraphrased (and poorly);
the hypothalamus in the brain pumps out short chain proteins called peptides. There are different peptides corresponding to each and all emotional feelings. These peptides are pumped throughout the body and are absorbed into the cells by certain receptor sites, the same receptors as those that receive opiates and such. Certain receptor sites can only receive certain molecules; like opiates and peptides, lock and key. People become addicted to these certain peptides and their concurrent feelings. We constantly find ourselves in situations that cause the hypothalamus to start producing the needed shots of those particular peptides. What a rush! Riteous indignation! Anger! Pity! Love... If we cannot stop finding ourselves in these situations, if we cannot stop, we are addicted.
Logic can not lead you to Truth. Logic is strictly a tool limited in function and range. Logic can build a better car. It can 'win' a logical debate. Logic (and lots of bullets) can win a war. Logic can initiate all sorts of technological advances. But its effective field of operation is limited to linear-spacio-temporal parameters. Please see my "What is Genius" thread for my definition of Genius. Below the last 'LIAR"! Hahahaha....
Genius is access to 'truth/answers/knowledge' without the use of logic.
Logic is not the access code for genius. That key don't fit this lock!
Genius is 'access' to the entire database of existence forever.
We never 'find' Truth; we become Truth.
02-21-06, 01:43 AM #9
02-21-06, 01:49 AM #10
Can logic be the flimsy gate keeping the roiling blind wholistic demons of Madness at bay? How tiny and fragile that artificial space, that logical 'sanity', that small cone of shadow in which one hides (Psychosis is a fearsome demon!) on one side of that 'gate/wall'... but.. oh how 'limited'!
Eventually, fearfully, one believes it to be the sum total of existence, under the table...
02-21-06, 02:46 AM #11
logic is left brained... art is right brained... so why not get a pen and paper and do some doodling?
02-21-06, 03:23 AM #12
But even common art uses logic, such as depth perception etc. There are exceptions however, such as optical illusions:
Perhaps the reverse of logic may be studied as follows: we say that something falls to the floor because of gravity, but anti-logic would dictate that it is because something falls to the floor that gravity exists. Oddly this may not be far from truth: it is because of movement from the Earth that we have gravity.
02-21-06, 05:50 AM #13
I think without logic, things is random. random is not logic I think.
02-21-06, 07:25 AM #14
I believe that the concept of 'opposites' is no more real than Eddie the Flourescant Elk from the world of galloping bugbears. I explain the concept of opposites as a dualistic necessity to relativistic human thought patterns. We concieve of things as either "1" or "0", they either exist, or they do not.
So you will have to be more explicit in what you mean when you say "the opposite of logic". Do you mean the opposite of a logical sequence, as in the reversal of a truth statement?
eg. statement = P therefore Q
opposite = Q therefore P
Do you mean to imply that an 'opposite to logic' exists as a total absence of rational or deductive thought? And if so, do you believe it possible to experience this? Or do you believe that logic is a sort of 'chaos', and if this is so, doesn't chaos follow a pattern of its own?
I subscribe to the idea of a 'cosmic logos' or universal logic. This idea doesn't really allow an 'opposite of logic' for me because I concieve of every thing as part of a deterministic and logical chain.
02-21-06, 03:37 PM #15
Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion
Perhaps 'access' is through right brain 'gate'. Doodling can certainly be a form of meditation/thoughtlessness. Perhaps one can 'doodle' the access code while the mind is out of the way and the appropriate 'query' has been 'launched'?
Doodling your way to Genius!!
02-21-06, 04:52 PM #16Originally Posted by Mosheh Thezion
Not that any of this has anything to do with the original thread beginning....
Logic is a human creation, not something immanent or idealistic. It cannot therefore, 'have' an opposite.
02-22-06, 01:51 AM #17
Originally Posted by glaucon
02-22-06, 02:31 AM #18
Originally Posted by Spectrum
Last edited by iam; 02-22-06 at 02:41 AM.
02-22-06, 03:05 AM #19Originally Posted by Spectrum
Two negatives make a positive. So? That's logic allright.
NOT (p AND q) = NOT(p) OR NOT (q)
Logic isn't flawed. Your understanding of it is!
Last edited by Rosnet; 02-22-06 at 03:14 AM.
02-22-06, 08:14 AM #20Originally Posted by Spectrum
Logic is nothing without the premises it processes. The thing is that there are many many many premises, some of them proverbially seem "illogical". But a premise cannot be illogical; a premise is only in known contradiction or in known non-contradiction with some other premise.