Love

[duendy]

Religion my ass. It's called science. Science by nature is materialist. It is based on FACTS, experiments, empirical evidence, logic, reason, etc.

me))your science is positivist'''go look it up. when i use 'science' wthout the prefix 'm' i am speaking about a much brroader understanding of science than what you seem to follow, religiously, and dogmatically

Science is why we are not still hiding from thunderstorms in caves wondering why god is punishing us.

me))yeah now yer hiding in horrendous concrete energy-hungry cities which crush all Nature down to a little park. wo, progress huh?


eh, philosophy.

No really, we don't have any efidence.
We do, however, have TONS of evidence.
Let me ask you... what is YOUR "evidence"?. Give me ONE instance where something, anything, anything at all, has been proven to defy the laws of physics.
There is none. Because of this we can conclude that nothing ever defies the laws of physics. everything that exists in this universe does so by what physics says. Since we exist in this universe, we do so by what physics says. It's very simple actually.

you soundlike friggin Moses on the Mount
and let me give proper link agin to this 'philsopher' this dude turns his nose up at
www.deepspirit.com

[EmptyForceOfChi]

first off, it's not like that. We do everything for good reasons. secondly, I wasn't saying it is a fact. (although I think it is).

That's your opinion, not a fact.
When did you get the statistics saying how every single person's brain individually opperates?
(see my point? you're in the exact same place. It's utterly pointless to point out the fact that it's not a fact)

No, but we only do things because our programming allows us to. I don't think even you can disagree with that. We can't just suddenly levitate and fly to the himalayas now can we? why not? because our programming doesn't allow that.
Nobody is saying that me typing this is programmed into me. But yes, our "program", along with past experiences, determines how we act.

Do we know every single thing about the earth? no. But do we know enough to say certain things? yes. Same with the brain. Do we know every single thing about the brain? no. But do we know enough to say certain things? definately.
Not being omniscient is no argument for or against anything. We know enough, and that's all that matters.

Hell no. First off, I don't know it all. Secondly, that would take FOREVER. and thirdly, thoughts don't reside in very specific places. Ok, some things, such as our ability to talk, our ability to understand language (interestingly enough, they're in two different places of the brain), certain smells, memories, etc. reside in gereral places in the brain (actually they're kind of specific... but we don't know like every neuron involved and stuff).
The FACT is, the brain has been mapped out very well indeed. I think every one of the areas that control every single muscle in your body has been mapped out, the pleasure centers of the brain have been mapped out, fear, etc.
If you want detail and more information, go to wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_brain for the general stuff
Here are some very general descriptions of the areas of the brain-
http://define.com/ken/images/MRI/functional-areas.gif
Now, keep in mind that that's nothing. The brain has been mapped out in much more detail than that. And that is partly why neurosurgeons spend so many years in college and are paid so damn much. Because there is a LOT to learn about the brain. How it works, what areas control what, etc.

i believe in physical science. and yes i fully agree with you with mostly what you said, we do things wich our proggramming allows us to do, but what is the limitation of our programming when it comes to imagination and freedom of thought?,

i believe what you say about chemicals, but since when does the machine get to decide how to control these chemicals?. and i just dont agree with everything we do that is good, is based upon us wanting to feel good ourselves, i believe we do things purely for others happyness, i think i do anyway.


peace.

[TheAlphaWolf]

but what is the limitation of our programming when it comes to imagination and freedom of thought?

What do you mean by freedom of thought?
as for imagination, we do have limited imaginations. We can't imagine very big numbers, very small numbers, very detailed things, many abstract things, etc. Some people may be better than others, but no one is perfect at it. Therefore our programming does limit our ability to imagine things.

i believe what you say about chemicals, but since when does the machine get to decide how to control these chemicals?.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.
Do you mean us controlling our bodies? like taking antidepressants and stuff? That's just us (chemicals) learning (through experience and having physical changes happen in our brains) that certain things make other things happen. Some of those things make you happy, so you take them.

and i just dont agree with everything we do that is good, is based upon us wanting to feel good ourselves, i believe we do things purely for others happyness, i think i do anyway.

I do. Many times we may delude ourselves into thinking we're doing it for the good of someone else, but if we really analyze our motives and stuff, we find that very deep within us is a selfish motive.
You may be doing it because doing it feels good or you may be doing it because NOT doing it feels worse.
If you didn't want your wife/others to be happy, wouldn't you feel worse than the sadness you get when thinking about it? You would probably think you are selfish, self-centered, heartless, etc. right?

[EmptyForceOfChi]

see we just have to agree to dissagree,

i believe that people do things just for the good of others (not all the time ofcourse) but i believe it happens.

that is basically admitting everything you do, even for yor mother, your father, your daughter your son, is all selishly motivated, i believe people do things for the good of there parents and children, not just because it feels good for themselves,

it isnt fact though, you cant possibly define every humans personal motives to a single statement liek that. i believe its subjective to each individual.

peace.

[EmptyForceOfChi]

i believe i am selfish, but not complete and utter,

some of the things i do are purely for the benefit of others, and i believe some people sacrifice themselves for the good of others,

peace.

[TheAlphaWolf]

that is basically admitting everything you do, even for yor mother, your father, your daughter your son, is all selishly motivated,

Yeah. I'm honest with myself. lol

it isnt fact though, you cant possibly define every humans personal motives to a single statement liek that. i believe its subjective to each individual.

again, you're in the same positon. Heck, you're even in a LOWER position. We have facts on our side, you don't.

Everyone, if people use the "it's just your opinion, not a fact" argument on you, take that as a compliment, as they're trying to pull your argument down to their level's argument... meaning your argument is better than theirs.

[EmptyForceOfChi]

my argument is an opinion i dont claim it to be fact, its my personal opinion, science claims facts i give opinions.

i admit my theorys are theorys, i never claim anything to be fact. but what im saying is your "fact" conflicts with my "reality" and "life experience",


peace.

[c7ityi_]

love is the only energy in the universe and it's the reason why everything exists. love was born because of separation: everyone feels themselves to be separate and incomplete, we always seek something, but as long as we seek it outside ourselves, we will never find our complementary half. the visible side could be revealed because it left the other side unmanifested. there is no light without darkness.

[duendy]

see Alpha Wolf. your cynical worldview includes notion that EVERY motive , action is based on "selfishness"

the opposite of this MATERIALIST view is the Western religious and Eastern religious IDEALSM whcih states one who is'pure' can be utterly "selfless"

can you see that this is two extreme world views? in REALITY it is BOTH. yes , sometimes we selffish and sometimes selfless and neither are absolute

[EmptyForceOfChi]

see Alpha Wolf. your cynical worldview includes notion that EVERY motive , action is based on "selfishness"

the opposite of this MATERIALIST view is the Western religious and Eastern religious IDEALSM whcih states one who is'pure' can be utterly "selfless"

can you see that this is two extreme world views? in REALITY it is BOTH. yes , sometimes we selffish and sometimes selfless and neither are absolute

yes thats true,

the last sentance/para, was well said.

peace.

[TheAlphaWolf]

see Alpha Wolf. your cynical worldview includes notion that EVERY motive , action is based on "selfishness"

Nope, I pretty much always just talk about what's generally true. Just like you might say people have two eyes. It's not always true, but it's true for the vast majority of people.
There's variation. Some people may REALLY be altruistic because of some weird mutation or something, but the vast majority of people aren't.

[duendy]

Nope, I pretty much always just talk about what's generally true. Just like you might say people have two eyes. It's not always true, but it's true for the vast majority of people.
There's variation. Some people may REALLY be altruistic because of some weird mutation or something, but the vast majority of people aren't.

how do you KNOW this?

[Avatar]

Mutation? hehe
our perception of the world is not only dependent on the physical organs (where mutation might come into play), but also on the information stored in brain.
For example, if I know or think I know something that makes me alturistic I am such with no mutations.

[c7ityi_]

see Alpha Wolf. your cynical worldview includes notion that EVERY motive , action is based on "selfishness"

Of course since there is nothing but the self.

the opposite of this MATERIALIST view is the Western religious and Eastern religious IDEALSM whcih states one who is'pure' can be utterly "selfless"

You can, you just "rid" yourself of your consciousness (person, attachments, likes and dislikes etc), you become like an insect.

[TheAlphaWolf]

how do you KNOW this?

You're saying most people AREN'T selfish? if so, I don't know what world you've been living in.

our perception of the world is not only dependent on the physical organs (where mutation might come into play), but also on the information stored in brain.

Of course, but the basics of human nature is in our genes. The reasons of why you do everything are because of those basic elements of human nature.
I don't think doing things because they make you feel better is something you learn. It's just something you're born with.

[Avatar]

I don't think doing things because they make you feel better is something you learn.

No. But doing something that does not make one feel better (alturistic actions, natural karma yoga) is.

[TheAlphaWolf]

No. But doing something that does not make one feel better (alturistic actions, natural karma yoga) is.

You can't learn that... I mean, how can you learn to stop doing things that make you feel better if that's why you do things? I don't see how that works.
It may APPEAR you're really altruistic, but because you would feel bad otherwise or something.

[Avatar]

Well, there's only one way to find out.
Before that it's all assumptions with no factual ground.

I mean, how can you learn to stop doing things that make you feel better

I think it means just doing some things that make one feel better and others that are just alturistic.
One always feels better after drinking water if was thirsty.

[duendy]

You're saying most people AREN'T selfish? if so, I don't know what world you've been living in.

Of course, but the basics of human nature is in our genes. The reasons of why you do everything are because of those basic elements of human nature.
I don't think doing things because they make you feel better is something you learn. It's just something you're born with.

what you do. you interpret your presumption and thus project it over all reality is what yo do

thnk on people who risk their lives to save others. who could get seriously burned--which they wouldn't love--and yet in ta moment all thoughtof personal safety is forgotten.....etc

a mother's love

etc

[Singularity]

well you see, that is your particular belief system, but that is not mine, but i respect yours and understand it completely,

but it is an opinion not a fact,

i know chemicals effect us in many many ways, but i still believe its possible to actually care for somebody,


in a way i kind of pity you and others that think liek that, because if that is your mindstate,

that was a Huge insult.

you must actually be aware of it at the time that its happening, ad you must realise everything you ever do is selfish, that must feel quite bad i immagine, to realise nobody actually cares about you and never will do, and people are only around you because it give them a chemical reactiont hat makes them feel good, im not bieng horrible but how does it feel to know nobody really likes you or cares about you or does anything for you for a truley nice reason?,



peace.

So knowing something true is horrible ?