03-27-02, 01:17 PM #21
As I mentioned before, there is no recoil force on plate 1 because the "electric bullet" has no mass.
Correct, the ‘electric bullet’ has no mass. But it has relativistic properties of mass like momentum and kinetic energy, which is dependent on the frequency of the “electric bullet.”
The magnitude of such a ‘bullet’ fired from plate 1 would need to be large enough to have an effect on plate 2, right?
But that is only a minor problem. I mentioned before that all you might manage to produce is vibrations at best. If plates 1 and 2 are connected together, all forces if any, will cancel out and the plate assembly will simply vibrate. If they are not connected and you manage to move plate 2 with the force of an ‘electric bullet,’ again the forces if any, will cancel out at the mechanism supporting the plate assembly and that of the ship. Again, vibrations at best.
03-27-02, 02:59 PM #22Joeblow93132Guest
Plate 2 would not have a constant positive charge. It would only become charged as the electric pulse from plate 2 begins to hit it. When the back-end of the pulse reaches plate 2, plate 2 would then become uncharged.
So in effect, both plates would be pulsing, only the pulses from plate 2 would be delayed relative to plate 1.
03-27-02, 03:02 PM #23Joeblow93132Guest
I don't think that there would be any force present until the pulse begins to hit the second plate.
Does the Biefeld-Brown Effect require a medium or can it work in a vacuum?
03-27-02, 03:12 PM #24Joeblow93132Guest
The electric bullet has no frequency. It is just a short burst of constant electric field.
Let's, for the sake of argument, assume that the electric pulse from plate 1 has some form of relativistic mass or inertia that would create a force as it is generated. You would have to take into consideration that the pulse is not unidirectional; it travels in all directions away from plate 1. Only the section of this pulse that reaches the second plate would be converted to force. As you can see, even if the electric field did have mass, since it travels away from plate 1 in ALL directions, the sum of the forces on plate 1 would be zero.
Now if the sum of the forces on plate 1 is equal to zero, and the force on plate 2 is greater than zero, you would have a propulsion device, not an electric vibrator.
03-27-02, 09:42 PM #25
ok, sounds like most of it would work, but I don't get how it would get up to the speed of light. Wouldn't the engine need increasing amounts of electricity to accelerate?
03-27-02, 10:25 PM #26
03-28-02, 10:21 AM #27
The electric bullet has no frequency. It is just a short burst of constant electric field.
One word. Hertz.
Joeblow, I think we've reached an impasse. I still have some issues we can't agree upon.
Firstly, I don't think you can apply a force to one plate without propagation of the force from the other plate. I'm not even sure this will work at all.
Secondly, I think all forces, if present, cancel out within the ship.
Thirdly, You can't 'push' one plate with another's force and expect to get propulsion. The ship itself is not being propelled by anything. The plates are perhaps pushing one another within the ship, but that's the extent.
I'm no expert on EM forces. Perhaps Thed could provide some imput. He knows his stuff in this area.
03-28-02, 03:27 PM #28Joeblow93132Guest
This engine can only reach light speed, or very close to light speed, in outer space. In the Earth's atmosphere it would only accelerate only until the air resistance is equal to the propulsion force.
If you are implying that the mass of the engine would increase as it approaches light speed, then the acceleration of the engine would decrease, but nonetheless, it would still be accelerating.
In order to have equal acceleration at all speeds, and assuming Einstein is right, you would have to increase the energy consumption as the speed increases. But I see no reason why you would need to have constant acceleration.
03-29-02, 01:55 AM #29
I don't see how this would work either. You have two plates inside a ship, they will exert an equal force on each other, which will cancel any thrust you may get from it. Isn't this like putting a fan in the front of a toy boat and letting it blow wind at the sail? The boat will not move, unless you place the fan on another surface, such as your hand.
03-29-02, 02:00 AM #30
If force is being projected forward from one plate, then wouldn't that force be exerted back against its originating plate as well? Opposite and equal reactions and such?
03-30-02, 07:51 PM #31Joeblow93132Guest
Xelios and Adam,
In mass interactions, the rule of action/reaction ALWAYS applies because you cannot turn mass on or off at your discretion. Since mass in a mass interaction is always constant, the "reaction" force cannot be suppressed.
But this propulsion device does NOT deal with mass, it deals with electric fields. Electric fields CAN be turned on or off. Since electric fields only react to themselves, a system can be built that suppresses the "action" or the "reaction" force of an interaction.
This device suppresses the "action" force by making sure that no other electric fields are present when the electric pulse from plate 1 is generated. That way, no force interacts with the pulse or with plate 1. Next, a "reaction" force is created by charging plate 2 as the impulse from plate 1 hits it. The result is an interaction that only has a "reaction" force. And since there is no "action" force to balance the "reaction" force, propulsion is created.
03-30-02, 08:12 PM #32
I'll tell you what you should do, you should try to make this device ....... okay?? It's just silly to hear you disagree theoretically with the rest: if it works for real then you can prove it (but then again ... they might not believe IF it works - such is ego)
03-30-02, 09:15 PM #33Joeblow93132Guest
I was hoping that someone else would make it so that I wouldn't have to.
04-08-02, 05:13 PM #34
06-02-02, 05:33 PM #35
06-03-02, 11:57 AM #36
It's too bad I don't believe in time dilation, length contraction, or Einstein's correlation beween mass and velocity.
Tom, aka Joeblow93132
Last edited by Prosoothus; 06-03-02 at 12:04 PM.
06-03-02, 12:36 PM #37
it's really not a question of belief,...time dilation, length contraction
08-01-02, 07:19 AM #38
Joeblow, your machine wont work:
1) First we charge plate 1. Lets for a moment ignore practical considerations and just assume that the dimensions of the plate are small compared to the distance to pate 2. As the plate is charged, an electromagnetic field leaves the plate, moving at the speed of light. Actually an electromagnetic field does have a mass; light excerts a measurable pressure on objects, but as the field propagates equally in both directions, both towards plate 2 and away from it, no force acts on plate 1 (but we have already wasted at least half our energy into space).
2) We discharge plate 1 again, and here comes the first crunch: As we switch it off, a new electromagnetic pulse with the opposite polarity is generated, going off into space chasing the first one.
3) As the EM pulse approaches plate 2, we charge plate 2. This means that an EM pulse leaves plate 2 and the part of it going in the direction of plate 1 meets the wave from plate 1 in midair. And here comes the next crunch: What happens when two electromagnetic waves meet in midair? Answer: Nothing. Electromagnetic waves do not interact with each other. Interference patterns can occur, but each wave continues on its way without any exchange of energy.
4) So the pulse from plate 1 "impacts" on plate 2 in precisely the same way, regardless of which charge plate 2 has (and the pulse from plate 2 will impact on plate 1 a little later). The effect from this interaction is that the plates will repel each other with some small and equal force. If they are not connected, they might move away from each other, if they are physically bound to each other, they will stay where they are.
08-01-02, 09:02 AM #39
As we switch it off, a new electromagnetic pulse with the opposite polarity is generated, going off into space chasing the first one.
And here comes the next crunch: What happens when two electromagnetic waves meet in midair? Answer: Nothing. Electromagnetic waves do not interact with each other. Interference patterns can occur, but each wave continues on its way without any exchange of energy.
The small effects of the electromagnetic pulses and the momentum of the electromagnetic photons in this device would cancel each other out, just as you indicated. That's why I'm not relying on them for propulsion, I'm instead relying on the interaction of electric fields for propulsion. If I wanted to use electromagnetic radiation for propulsion, I would have used a laser and not a pulsing electric field.
Tom aka Joeblow93132
08-01-02, 02:30 PM #40
To some extent (Q) is right, but
...but that is overcomable. I understand your idea Tom and I think you might be on to the classic Star Trek Impulse Engine . One thing doesn't seem correct, and I'm also wondering about something.
First what is incorrect. If you would let plate 2 become positively charged the moment the pulse hits it and let it become discharged when the pulse went through totally, you end up with a big 500kV vibrator
This will be true as when the wave passes through plate 2 (assuming it charges at the right moment and so on), thing will happen.
1) At the start the whole pulse is on one side of the plate (2). It will then fully push the plate (still 2) away.
2) Then the pulse 'overtakes' the plate (2). At the point where exactly one half of the pulse is on one side and the other half on the other side of the plate (2), nothing will happen. This because the plate (2) will be repelled either 'left' AND 'right'.
3) Then the most part of the pulse has passed. On this point though the pulse is where you want the plate (2)!
I dunno if you understood it the way I explained it, I might make it into a gif image if it is really ununderstandable.
The point is, it would be really easy overcomable by making the pulse from plate 2 as long as pulse 1 needs to halfly cross plate 2.
The thing I was wondering about was that 120 degree phase variation. I actually don't see why you would need it with two constant fields? just delete that and it seems to work imho AND i understand it
ps.: anyone having a spare VandeGraaff-generator lying around to try this all?