01-28-06, 06:40 AM #301Originally Posted by wesmorris
I don't want to be preachy -- I first provided the reference verse numbers to show what the bible said about the subject -- instead of posting the verses directly on the forum. Phlog said he read them, and could not conclude sinners went to the lake of fire according to the bible text -- so I posted the verses directly on the forum.
You're response was courteous for the most part -- but I didn't "post bible" for you to read and become defensive. I would prefer not to post bible verses unless there is no other way to make a point about what the literature says -- I didn't ask you or anyone else to believe it is true. It's merely a statement about the literature.
FYI -- here was phlog's post:
“ Originally Posted by Woody
Here's a quote from the Wikipedia:
The Christian idea of Hell is different from the Sheol of Judaism. The nature of Hell is described in the New Testament on several occasions. For example, in Matthew 3:10-12, 5:22 and 29-30, 7:29, 8:12, 22:13 and 33, 25:30 and 41-46, Luke 3:9, 12:5, 13:28, 16:19-28, and the Book of Revelation 12:9, 14:9-11, 19:20, 20:10 and 14-15, 21:8; in the Book of Revelation Hell is also mentioned as the "abyss" and "the Earth".
This debate is over.
Far from it, did you take the time to actually read those verses? They mention the word 'Hell' and being cast into 'Hell' and fire, but this really could just be the same as 'Gehenna' the PHYSICAL place where wrongdoers bodies were burned, instead of being buried properly. You really are going to have to try and get something to illustrate Hell.
Last edited by Woody; 01-28-06 at 06:48 AM.
01-28-06, 06:55 AM #302
01-28-06, 12:01 PM #303
My apologies then Woody. You do come off pretty preachy though.
01-30-06, 06:34 AM #304
Woody, you still haven't shown scriptural references for sinners spending eternity in Hell, have you?
Yes, the false prophet and the beast get cast into the 'lake of fire and brimstone' and are burned forever. Sinners are cast into the lake of fire, but there is a glaring omission about for how long. The OT specifically states that God does not turn his back on men forever. Now, please find a reference to specifically back up your 'spending eternity in Hell' line.
On what has this got to do with Darwin, well, people who disagree with Evolution are not doing so because they have a competing scientific theory, are they? They try and debunk Evolution, by promoting their religion. I'm doing the converse, that's all.
01-30-06, 11:23 AM #305
Rev 20:12 Says they (sinners) will be judged according to their works. Tell me what that means.
How about the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:23-24 as told by Jesus:
the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
01-31-06, 05:25 AM #306
Woody, there are words missing in every source you cite; 'for eternity'. You said that spending eternity in hell is no joke, but so far, have failed to provide a single shred of scriptural support for your statement!
If this debate is over, it's because you have failed to prove your point.
01-31-06, 05:53 AM #307Originally Posted by phlogistician
Referring to Luke 16 -- When does the torment end? Do you have a scriptural reference to prove your point?
01-31-06, 06:10 AM #308Originally Posted by Woody
Do you have a scriptural reference to prove your point?
But, just to drive my point home, with scriptural support
Lamentations 3:31-32 (NIV):
31 For men are not cast off, by the Lord forever.
32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love
So it seems that 'eternity' is reserved just for the specific characters named in Revelations.
So, now not only do you need to provide scriptural support for your assertion that mortal sinners will spend eternity in Hell, but also show that the OT verse is false! You could not do the former, now you must do both.
01-31-06, 09:10 AM #309
Sorry Woody. The debate never was. There simply is no reference for "hell" in the bible. You are ignoring the fact that Luke was written by its anonymous author in English, but rather in Greek. The word 'hell' you quote is really ΕΘΗΚΕ, or Hades. Hades meens unseen or is the Greek god of the underworld.
Are you suggesting that the xian bible is acknowledging polytheism or are you saying that those that piss of their god will bee "unseen" to those that "go to heaven?"
01-31-06, 09:43 AM #310Originally Posted by SkinWalker
Of course, neither place actually gets filled until after judgment day. Another scriptural nitpick, but one xtians often fall foul of.
01-31-06, 09:54 AM #311
Are we still staying this far off topic? It's hardly fare to chide Woody for his belief in eternal damnation when that's pretty much a broad "folk-theology" belief for the majority of people. You're just Christian-baiting now, which is certainly not what I come here for.
01-31-06, 09:56 AM #312
I made an error in the post above, the Greek for "Hades" as printed in the oldest texts of Luke is αδη. I used the capitalized version found in a much older Greek poem with ΕΘΗΚΕ. Still, it clearly refers to a masculine being -namely, the Greek god of the Underworld. More evidence that early xians were still trying having difficulty getting past their polytheism.
01-31-06, 09:59 AM #313Originally Posted by Silas
01-31-06, 10:48 AM #314Originally Posted by Silas
All I am doing is using the same technique against their dogma. Woody is incapable of providing scriptural support for his beliefs. If his beliefs are unfounded, so perhaps are his religious perspectives of evolution and Darwin.
Anyway, as someone who found their way out of christianity, I feel it's my obligation to help others throw off the shackles.
01-31-06, 04:41 PM #315Originally Posted by phlogistician
What does Jesus mean when he says:
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
As I said before I don't really care what hell is like because I'm not going there. You really don't believe hell exists so it shouldn't matter to you either.
Why do billions of christians believe there is an eternal hell, but they aren't going there, while non-believers don't believe there is an eternal hell, and tell christians they are wrong about their own bible?
01-31-06, 04:52 PM #316Originally Posted by SkinWalker
nowhere in the Torah is hell described as punishment for those who think differently than G-d. in fact, the only mention of anything even remotely resembling "hell" is the word "sheol", which means "grave" or "death". i speak, read, and write biblical hebrew, so i know this to be a fact.
So I ask the question: Is this discussion about hell helping anybody -- I suspect it is not so why don't we drop it?
Last edited by Woody; 01-31-06 at 05:01 PM.
01-31-06, 06:56 PM #317
As long as we are all clear on the fact that Darwin's theory isn't false.
01-31-06, 06:56 PM #318
01-31-06, 06:59 PM #319
Christianity was created by semi-intelligent designers.
01-31-06, 07:00 PM #320
Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey