I've been wondering about this for quite awhile now, I used to use it as an argument against omnipotent-god believing religious people, but since I don't fancy such arguments anymore I'd simply like a discussion of the paradox. If you view god as an omnipotent, all-powerful being that, as christianity and many other religions imply, has all power, how can free will exist? How can we possibly be responsible for our own fate? Explained- If God is omnipotent, upon the moment of conception when god creates you, he creates everything about you. However, at that moment, he also knows what your fate will be based on his creation. He knows whether you will go to heaven or hell, he knows everything that will ever happen in your life, and he knows all of this as he is creating you. So, in essence, he's responsible for everything that ever happens to you, all of your actions as well as the end-result of your life. There are a few differant ways to avoid this paradox, but both counteract commonplace christian doctrine. The first is to assume god is not omnipotent and simply can't see into the future. This would be the easiest answer if you find yourself on the recieving end of this argument, however this suggests that god isn't an all-powerful being at all but rather a higher power. A life-form similar to us, but more advanced. This goes against common belief. The second is the "Divine Plan" theory. This accepts that omnipotent god knows what will happen, and that it all happens for a reason. If this is the defense, however, it only eliminates personal responsibility. Are there any ways around this?
What's wrong with God being somewhat less than omnipotent? I think that is the most plausable premise if you start with the assumption God exists. There would be no reason to create something if you already know the outcome. Or, God creates his own limitations. Perhaps in the beginning, anything could happen, and then God creates some ground rules about the structure of reality that limit his actions in certain ways. Omnipotence is illogical, as are most ideas of perfection.
Thank you for that link, it sums up my beliefs on the matter rather perfectly. However, instead of simply claiming myself the victor, I wanted to hear what everyone else had to say. This argument has never failed me. If by some chance the religious person had an explination, their arguments fell apart quite quickly. I was hoping that wasn't the case for everyone.
I have free will I don't believe in god I don't believe in fate I wish that more people believed this
kalypso welcome: if you just do a search on this forum you can find some interesting threads http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=40065 http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=40731 http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=47228
I do have to say this: I've never ever heard of any ex-believer stating that they lost their faith in God due to any paradoxes that arise out of omniscience. I myself have two ways of looking at this issue. First of all, it is possible that all the logical laws by which we are supposably able to compass the actions of God are themselves the creation of God. Laws like the Law of Excluded Middle are so only because our minds are not capable of conceiving any other state. But God, omnipotent by definition, is capable of conceiving of and indeed experiencing states in which things both are and are not at the same time. The other way of looking at omniscience is, practically, the only way in which I personally am able to conceive of it in any case. The argument is frequently given that "an omniscient being knows everything there is to know, so he already knows how it turns out." My view is that God has the same choices that he has given to Humanity. So he can choose to know or not know everything that happens in the future, either to an individiual or to a part or all of Creation. And maybe the whole of Creation is an experiment, so God chooses to let it all play out and to see what happens. So he doesn't access that area of his omniscience. A third way of looking at it is simply to say that, across all time, God is not omniscient and could never be. But that says nothing about God being the Creator of the Universe, or having sent his only begotten Son to Earth to save the elect and sending the souls of the damned to burn in Hell for Eternity.
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! The good old fate and free will discussion again. Yes we can be responsible for our fate if God created us with the free will ability to decide what path we take. Just because God knew beforehand what path each individual would take does not establish as fact that God forces each individual to take their chosen path. Yes thats true. Once again, Not if He gave you the ability to choose the path you want to take. Well your are right. But you would be surprised how many christians do not believe that God has foreknowledge of all history. Some jump between two contradictory beliefs that God works to make His prophecies come true but at the same time they reject the notion that God forces people to do anything. If God works to make the future turn out as He plans then He must force individuals to perform future historical acts. Of course God does not force acceptance or rejection of the will of God but God does work mankind’s acceptance or rejection into His eternal plan. So if you like God takes advantage of people free will decisions both pro and anti-God to work them into for filling His ultimate plan. Once again No it does not eliminate personal responsibility for each individual’s response to God because God has given each and every person the ability to freely choose their response to the Will of God. Gods foreknowledge of each individuals response and His working of their responses into for filling His plan does not make God responsible for each individuals response. As an example: Part of Gods plan was for The Messiah Jesus to be executed by the Jews. God foreknew the rejection of His will by the Jews and took advantage of this by having them carry out the execution of the Messiah Jesus to for fill this major happening crucial to His eternal plan. The Jews who condemned and executed Jesus did so by their own free will they where not mindless automations being controlled by God via remote control. They carried out their will to kill one whom they rejected as the Messiah and saw as a blasphemer. God foreknew their hearts and worked their desire into His plan. Job 5 13He catches the wise in their own craftiness, And the counsel of the cunning comes quickly upon them. and again: 1 Corinthians 3 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”; Yes if you believe in God. That God is God, not confined by the laws of universal time but above His creation and not limited by time or space, or the "wisdom" of human logic. All Praise The Ancient Of Days
