What if we had treated enemy combatants really well instead?

Discussion in 'World Events' started by te jen, Dec 11, 2005.

  1. te jen Registered Senior Member

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    Okay, so we now have a situation where a thousand or so "enemy combatants", "detainees", whatever you want to call them, have been held incommunicado, brutalized, humiliated, tortured and dehumanized. They have no hope of freedom or even due process. They have been treated in such a way that we can never let them go, for they are now radicalized far, far beyond the level they were at when they were captured. Even if they personally felt no inclination to revenge for their experiences, each man has family and friends who might act on his behalf.

    Consider for a moment how the U.S. dealt with German prisoners. At the peak in 1945 there were 370,000 prisoners held in the U.S. in several hundred camps. Available evidence shows that they were treated extremely well by any standards, with comfortable barracks, paid work outside the camps for those who wanted it, and excellent medical care. All in all, better conditions than many had experienced in their own armies and certainly better than what the German civilians were experiencing back home.

    There was, of course, a percentage of hard-core nazis who tried to make life difficult for the average gefreiter who just wanted to live out the war. These fanatics were moved out to other camps, but in most cases were dealt with by the majority of German prisoners who didn't want their good treatment jeapordized.

    Many of the German prisoners were employed on farms and in road-building projects (there was a serious labor shortage in the U.S. at the time) and actually developed warm freindships with the locals. So warm, in fact, that many Germans sought to remain in the U.S. after the war ended and prisoners were released in 1946. Thousands returned to the U.S. in the postwar years for reunions and to tour the places where they were held. In any event, three hundred thousand young men returned to Germany with no animosity towards Americans.

    So let's consider - what if the U.S. had taken the thousands of Afghans and Iraqis they had captured and put them in a real nice environment. Club Med, compared to what they had back home. Encourage them to study the Qu'ran and pray five times a day. Give them classes in English, offer them basic work, give them little luxuries, make friends with them. Separate out the real fanatics and keep them well-secured, but treat the bulk of the young men with basic humanity.

    What you end up with is a bunch of guys who have been treated real well (in fact, this might make them a little suspect in the eyes of their comrades back in Kabul and Falluja), in many cases de-radicalized, but in any event when you put them back on the street of their home towns they would say to their families "The Americans hit us with overwhelming force and killed lots of our fighters, but when we were captured they treated us with overwhelming kindness. We would not have gotten the same from the Northern Alliance or Saddam". Just as the Germans knew that they would not have gotten good treatment from the Soviets.

    You could almost treat the prisoners like a virus - you grab them, take good care of them and in the process change their fundamental attitudes. Release them back into their own populations and watch them act like an innoculation, countering domestic radicalism.

    Of course, it's too late to do it now, but an interesting speculation nonetheless.
     
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  3. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Helluva way to start a new topic ......begin with unfounded, unprovable allegations and accusations, and basing it all on nothing more than sensationalist news media reports (which are also unfounded, unproven sensationalist allegations and accusations!).

    I don't believe all of that, so ..........the remainder of your post has no meaning or interest.

    Baron Max
     
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  5. te jen Registered Senior Member

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    Your snap response to my carefully constructed post is typical. You take exception to a single point and use it to disregard the entire framework. I expect that if I could somehow engage you in the central theme - which is to wonder how excellent treatment of enemy combatants might alter the outcome of their incarceration - you would just toss out your favorite line, denigrating it as "liberal psychobabble bullshit".

    If you are going to maintain that no media information is trustworthy and that anyone who dares disagrees with you is an idiot, then why do you even bother posting?
     
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  7. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    I'm beginning to believe that that's actually the case these days! I think it's become a matter of one-upmanship with all of the news media stations/papers and most, if not all, do NOT check their stories or articles for verification prior to publishing .....it seems as if it's "Whoever is first to report the story, right or wrong, is the winner!" And that sucks ...plus it causes undue over-reaction and/or hysteria in the general public. And that sucks, too.

    I think if you'd check, you'll find that most, if not all, of my posts tend to question someone else's posts or allegations or assertions or accusations or statements. Seldom, if ever, do I actually make statements, and even when I do, I'm seldom sure of it and do so only out of frustration!!

    And in fact, I expect and hope that people will disagree and tell me why ...that way I can learn to be as smart as some of y'all.

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    Baron Max
     
  8. Basketdan Registered Member

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    You act as if you have the faintest idea of how we run prisons; you do not. You only hear of the few rare instances of relatively minor abuse that has taken place; and you base your entire stance on this anti-american propoganda. Sickening.
     
  9. The Devil Inside Banned Banned

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    8,213
    Baron Max,

    lol...please turn in your sciforums membership card at the front desk, as this is an INTELLIGENT COMMUNITY.

    you only do what you claim your opponents (and thats what they are to you) do. you counter regular discourse with abrasive name calling and pseudo nazi-esque rhetoric.

    but to respond to your statement, you discredit Foxnews as well then?
     
  10. te jen Registered Senior Member

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    If you do not trust any media source for factual information, and I presume that you do not trust governmental news sources (do you?), then on what basis can you ever comment on events in the world that you don't personally witness? It seems that you are reduced to denying any statement based on reportage or research. That only leaves pure logic.


    Do you deny all assertions, or just the ones that don't fit your worldview? In the example of this thread, do you deny the basic reporting that described the treatment of German POWs in World War 2? Or does your lack of objection constitute tacit approval of the reporting?

    Supposing I modify my initial position - along the lines of:

    "Okay, so we now have a situation where a thousand or so "enemy combatants", "detainees", whatever you want to call them, have been held under conditions that invite sensational news reporting and which promotes either their own radicalism or that of their countrymen."

    Does that satisfy you? Does it make the the other themes presented in the thread worth discussing?

    That's a laugh. If I disagree with you how can I present evidence you will accept?


    You're right, I have absolutely no idea of how we run prisons. Do you? Are you speaking from firsthand knowledge? On what basis do you disregard the reports as solely anti-American propaganda?

    I can be reasonable, though. Let's presume for the moment that the sensational reports coming from Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and other places are entirely false. All the photos are falsified, all the witnesses lying, so on and so forth. But you cannot deny that the U.S. holds several thousand people under no criminal charge, with no legal representation, for an indefinite period of time. Even if this was all the U.S. was doing, it would be sufficient cause for the anger and radicalization of those being held and their families and friends on the outside. I don't need a news report or a study to confirm this either - if it happened to me or someone I know, I would be radicalized.

    Given that, my central theme stands ready for discussion. Extraordinarily humane treatment of prisoners would completely defuse them as a symbol of and cause for resistance, would likely "break" them faster than any conceivable intimidation, and upon eventual release would make them figures somewhat suspect back on their own streets or at least not rabidly anti-American.

    Comments?
     
  11. jack54 Registered Senior Member

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    130
    Um, perhaps I'm missing something, but I can see absolutely nothing wrong with your argument te jen. That makes perfect sense to me!

    You might need someone else to get some discussion going on this one...
     
  12. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    I base my knowledge of events of the world after several weeks of "news" from various sources ...if that event is still happening/ongoing, then the "news" has usually settled down to actually being news, rather than sensational bullshit put forth without factual info.

    On what evidence or information do you base that statement? Or is that just your opinion based on your own fantasy of how the world should be?

    Also, perhaps you can point out examples in history where this "defusing" took place?

    Baron Max
     
  13. te jen Registered Senior Member

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    532
    You've clearly demonstrated that we all filter the news we get through our preconceived notions of how the world is. What fits, we accept and what doesn't we toss out. But I ask you - just because a story is sensationalized, does that necessarily mean that it didn't happen? Can we cut through the sensationalism to a nugget of truth that can be the basis for discussion?


    My point was that the German POWs in the U.S. in 1943-46 serve as an example of how humane treatment can have a positive social and political effect in defusing conflict and speeding the recovery from it. It's not just my opinion.

    Another example I can come up with is at the end of the American Civil War. The terms upon which Grant accepted Lee's surrender were unusually generous and humane. Every soldier and officer was allowed to return home without facing prosecution for their part in the rebellion. Officers were permitted to keep their sidearms, anybody who claimed to own a horse could keep it, and the Union Army immediately fed the half-starved Confederates. Grant himself declined to accept Lee's sword in surrender. When the Union Army surrounded the Confederates at the end, they outnumbered the southern force by about five to one. The Union Army could have cut the remnants to pieces and shipped the survivors off to prison. That they did not helped to heal the rifts caused by the Civil War.
     
  14. Satyr Banned Banned

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    1,896
    I think enemy combatants should be given cookies and milk and smothered with love and good cheer.

    Then we can join hands and sing camp-fire songs, before we return them to their families, with a box of our very best muffins, and they then return to their plan of annihilating us.

    Ahhhhhh…………I love Christmas.
     
  15. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    23,053
    Sure ...just give me that littel "nugget of truth", and we can begin at once.

    Huh? The German soldiers and sailors didn't even know anything about how the US treated the prisoners ...in fact, it was widely held that they were all execuuted immediately. Do you have any evidence that the humane treatment actually had any effect on the German war efforts??? If so, please provide it.

    As to the Civil War, that was AFTER the war was over ...and during the surrendering negotiations. During the war, while the fight was still going on, there was little or nothing known about how prisoners were treated ...by either side.

    You've taken a position in this discussion that seems to be based purely on your own emotions, with little or no facts or substantiating evidence. You're permitted to hold your opinion, of course, but it's usually better to have some evidence and/or logical data to substantiate it.

    Baron Max
     
  16. te jen Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    532


    I love it when people contradict themselves within a single sentence. Anyway, I challenge you to provide any evidence of what the German military thought was happening to their captured comrades.


    Reread my initial post. I never suggested that the treatment had any effect on the German war effort. I stated that the consensus of historical opinion is that the treatment German POWs received in the United States had a strongly positive effect on postwar German-American relations. Read http://uboat.net/men/pow/recreation.htm and http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/GG/qug1.html and http://www.prisonersinparadise.com/history.html.



    There were no negotiations for surrender, and as a matter of fact Lee's surrender did not even end the war. Lee went to see Grant at Appomattox seeking terms, and offered none of his own. See http://blueandgraytrail.com/event/Surrender_Letters. He had nothing to bargain with. My point about the Civil War is entirely relevant, and you are also incorrect about knowledge regarding conditions in POW camps. Soldiers were frequently exchanged out of camps up until 1864, and to think that they would not tell all about conditions in the camps is preposterous. There was too much political hay to be made from that information. In any event, as the General in command of all Union forces Grant's generous terms led to a speedy end to the war, put Lee in a frame of mind to advise other Confederates who had not surrendered to do so, and greatly helped Reconstruction. I will provide documentation on all of this if you insist.

    Why don't you enlighten me about where I used emotion solely (or at all) to establish my position? My initial post started with a belief based on the available reportage from as many sources as I can read on a daily basis. It was followed by statements of undisputed historical fact regarding German POWs in WW2. It was concluded by conjecture meant to provoke discussion. Instead of a discussion of the basic idea, I get a lot of peripheral nit-picking. When I concede points unimportant to that basic idea, I get no reciprocal treatment from you, just more attacks based on incorrect information and irrelevant conjecture about my state of mind and my personal politics.



    Thank you for permitting me to have an opinion, but don't lecture me on the fine points of argumentation.
     
  17. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    The civil war was a fight between brothers who disagreed over one or two things [state's rights and slavery]. It's true that the generous terms of surrender helped avert a protracted insurgency that could have torn our nation apart. But again, we were all Americans, we didn't see the enemy as an infidel who must die or convert. Even in WW2, while the NAZI's were virtual monsters, the average German was not. We had no fear of Germans strapping explosives to themselves and killing children. If we were to follow your policy it might actually work in some cases, but it would also create too many opportunities for an enemy that has shown he prefers to attack unarmed women and children. The time for mercy is when the enemy has been uterly defeated beyond any hope. As with Japan, it was only after nuking two of their cities that they would accept unconditional surrender. Once we had secured that, we could follow your policy. We allowed their Emperor to remain in power and helped them rebuild without imposing reparations or a crushing occupation.
     
  18. android nothing human inside Registered Senior Member

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    Not so, according to some sources.

    http://www.ety.com/HRP/rev/warcrimetrials.htm
     
  19. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Neo-nazi sources that is, android. Nice link

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    Te Jen's argument was well put. Humane treatment is the basis of all international law applicable to prisoners of war, not only from a sense of justice, but because these standards contribute considerably to stability after hostilities cease. Abuse clearly contributes to resentment and radicalization, and the Bush Administration is proving this out (in the negative) at our great and incalculable expense in the future.

    The benefits of humane and even impeccable treatment of prisoners should not be difficult to understand. What is more complex and interesting to me in this thread (although off topic) are the motivations for presenting these various wild tangents in order to muddy up the water of one clear thought, as if it were threatening or frightening. Curious, the apparent assumption that all detainees under the Bush Administration are evil, not deserving of their internationally-established rights, even while we do not know them, and do not know their stories.
     
  20. Basketdan Registered Member

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    Again, you act as if you know that we do not already treat them "extraordinarily humanely." How about doing REAL research instead of looking at the BS that constantly comes out of the NY Times. You will then discover the truth; we treat them extremely humanely.

    This is a war; you must accept that. Given that this IS a war, it is truly amazing how few rights the American government has infringed upon yet still managed to keep us safe. Stop complaining. Start complimenting.
     
  21. android nothing human inside Registered Senior Member

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    After my brother, I had my hearing before the "Civilian Alien Hearing Board" to face the same people that interned my parents 7 months earlier. There were 5 or 6 members on the board. One question concerned a statement I supposedly made about Hitler when I was twelve. Another question concerned my attendance at Coney Island German American Day and German American picnics in 1939 and 1940. They even had glossy photos of me from the picnics. The high point was when they asked "What would you say to your German cousin if he came to you for sanctuary after coming up the Ohio River in his German U-boat." I said a sub couldn't come up the Ohio River, it only drafts 4 feet. Of course, they didn't like that response. Then they went into raw data, which is the "evidence" people call in and requires no substantiation because the informant is guaranteed anonymity. Any answers I gave seemed totally unacceptable, and I already knew that we were to be sent to Chicago for internment. I'd read it in the paper.

    After questioning, my brother and I were again handcuffed and taken home. We were advised to take only enough clothes for about 2 days and to make sure all doors and windows were locked. This was the last time we ever saw the house. The contents were later looted: pictures stamp collection, violin, piano, furniture, keepsakes, irreplaceable family memorabilia—all treasured by my mother and gone forever. The house was lost to foreclosure. My parents could not afford to make the mortgage payments because they were interned. This was not unusual. Many homes were lost during internment. The government was not concerned about such matters. Incredibly, the elders of our church even stopped by after my parents were interned to demand their pledge. When we couldn't make payment, my parents were dropped from the rolls of the church.

    http://www.foitimes.com/
     
  22. android nothing human inside Registered Senior Member

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    Where does that source say that it is a neo-Nazi?
     
  23. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Scroll to the bottom of your linked page to the index and read on.
     

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