The Empirical church of humanity

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Mosheh Thezion, Dec 9, 2005.

  1. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,650
    The Empirical Church of Humanity .
    Founder : Mosheh Thezion radicalman@surfside.net

    First : None of the beliefs of the church are fixed. I.E. the beliefs of the church are forever dependent on the abundant evidence from the sciences, and as such, will be ever evolving with the advancement and development of scientific knowledge. However, as founding principles on which to base our efforts, we take all theories as being the basic forms for proposals, which we as church members may consider in detail.

    Second : Truth, and what a person chooses to believe in, as a whole or in part, is always a decision for the individual to make personally, and it is not the duty of the church to force or make assertive efforts to make people believe in anything other than a God.

    Third : It is the duty of the church to make available all of the evidence as found by the sciences, and all the theoretical proposals developed to explain for all of it, as well as making available all forms of scripture, without bias, and over interpretation.

    Fourth : There must be a standing rule against being fanatical in any way. For if an individual is incapable of calmly arguing and discussing the evidence and scripture in an open forum, where any number of opposing views maybe discussed, then eventually fights and hurt feeling will develop, and such negative behavior benefits no one.

    Fifth : People who chose to join this church do so with the understanding that they need not give up on any specific faith which they may already have, as it is the effort of the church to strengthen ones faith, not change and alter it, and we do so with evidence.

    Sixth : It is the serious open and daily effort of the church to pursue science and do the research, which the individual members of individuals church groups choose to pursue. All in the effort to develop our understanding, and advance our technology, for in doing so we not only increase our understanding of Gods creation, but increase our human potential as living beings… allowing us to manipulate our environment and daily lives.

    Seventh : The church is fundamentally founded on one belief that should be acceptable to people of all faiths and cultures. “Where there is charity and love, God is there!”
    Such that it should be the daily effort of all humanity to, by their will and effort commit acts of charity and love when ever possible, for in doing so we increase the level of good and joy and prosperity in our world, and so, it can be imagined that the level of Gods presence is directly increased, and is thus directly a function of our will to be Godly.

    Eighth : The day to day operations and efforts of focused study will be divided into the 7 days of the week. Where Islam may be studied on Friday, Judaism on Saturday, and Christianity on Sunday, with Metaphysics on Monday, and Hinduism on Tuesday, Buddhism on Wednesday, and perhaps Taoism on Thursday. Of course such schedules will be up to the individual members of individual group churches. However, the study of science and efforts in research are to be incorporated 7 days a week, and 24 hours a day.

    Ninth : The effort to interpret and consider the many varied scriptures will and must always be weighted and considered against the evidence, and it’s proposals. With the understanding that our interpretation of the evidence may in fact be flawed or wrong.

    Tenth : The study of scriptures must always be from the oldest to the newest, as we can interpret the New Testament using the scripture of the Old Testament, but we should not use New Testament scripture to interpret the Old Testament. For as is logical, the newer scripture was inspired by the old and as the old was written long before the new, its inspiration must of come from still earlier scriptures etc. And so, when we endeavor to study scripture it is only reasonable that we approach all the abundant scripture in the same pattern in which it was written. From oldest to newest…

    Eleventh : In the daily study of scriptures, it is only logical that we endeavor to take notes and make summaries, chapter by chapter, verse by verse, where by we seek to see patterns in the discussion, and can thus be sure of our proposed interpretations. It is thus the duty of those who run the church efforts to make these notes and summaries, which shall be critically considered by members who come to listen, and argue.

    Twelfth : The church is divided into areas of effort. First in proportion to the available funds and man power, free housing and food for the homeless, under the conditions that such downtrodden persons turn not to a religion, but to a faith in themselves. A faith, which tells each of us that, we are capable of being so much more than we may presently be. When one human falls, humanity in brother-hood should be there to help them up again. Then a discussion hall of needed size, then a library/ laboratory for member use.

    Thirteen : The laboratory efforts are to be taken in the most serious of views, as the potential for danger and accidental stupidity is possible. Therefore, only adults of sound mind shall be given access to the lab facilities, at the church leaders discretion.

    Fourteen : On each of the seven days, an open forum of discussion will be held on the desired topic or form of scripture and or faith. Church leaders will lecture on notes and summaries made, yet it will and must be an open forum, to be peacefully and calmly organized by the church leaders, where by any member who wishes to speak shall and must be granted a time to speak as is needed, within a time limit to allow for arguments.

    Fifteen : If the resources and manpower are available then another church area of effort will be made as an entire school, or possibly as a rehabilitation program, available to all people who would enjoy and make use of a supplementary education in science and the pursuit of serious research. Or who are in need of serious rehabilitation.

    Sixteen : Individuals who might join the brotherhood area of the church, as someone in need, maybe given employment directly from the church, as commissioned salesmen of the many booklets developed. When possible as farmers and laborers in the many humanitarian efforts which the church may pursue, as a whole, or in part as individual groups and persons. However, volunteerism is one with the concepts of a brother-hood of humanity, where in, the rewards come from our accomplishments, not profits.

    Seventeen : It is the effort of the church leaders to develop further works for publication, being ideally, focused analysis of the many varied scriptures in relation to the abundant evidence of the sciences.

    Eighteen : No chemistry laboratory experiments are to be permitted without the strict supervision of church leaders and the advice of professional chemists, as chemistry is not something to just play around with.

    Nineteen : Every church must strive to establish the most comprehensive library possible for use as reference material for its branch members, in their daily pursuit of understanding nature and Gods creation, and so science.
    This library should be open to all, yet books should never be checked out.

    Twenty : In order to facilitate the survival of the church, all people who would enter the doors to make use of the church and forums, should donate at least one dollar per visit. Children and the poor being of course exempt.

    Twenty one : While the church does not promote a specific faith as scripture, it does with an assertive effort strive to convert atheists, for the main argument of the un-believers is regarding the evidence and how they believe that it does not support a belief in a God. And so, it is the duty of the church leaders to take the steps to calmly argue with those atheists who may be open minded enough to make an honest effort to hear our proposals.
    Proposals based fundamentally in evidence, described by theory.!

    Twenty two : One of the founding beliefs of the church, is that God as presented in scripture doesn’t need or demand our worship, God asks us to obey. To obey as children should obey their parent. And it is the bulk of scripture, which serves as the arguments for why individuals should obey. As should be obvious, if an individual lives a life of sin, then no amount of worship and prayer can make up for it. The only way to make up for sins is by serious acts of charity and love. Acts which may improve a souls overall quality.

    Twenty three : One of the founding beliefs of the church is that it is not enough to worship God and Jesus, instead we as human beings should make it our daily effort to be Godly, to be like Jesus, and build Gods kingdom now, in our lifetime. Why wait? Calm, rational, adult thinking gives humankind a potential limited only by our imagination.



    Your comments are encouraged... no matter what your opinion.

    -MT
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. beyondtimeandspace Everlasting Student Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    554
    Mosheh is the Hebrew name for Moses. Are you sure this isn't a ripoff?
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,199
    Not sure why the god concept itself should be exempt from scientific study. If this church was true to its name i.e. Empirical ..., then the normal stance should be atheist since there is an absence of empirical evidence for gods.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,650
    The absense of evidense..... isnt evidense.

    How can I be a ripoff??? its my name.

    Granted... it is the name i live as... not born as.

    -MT
     
  8. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,199
    Mosheh,

    It most certainly is. When an idea sticks around for thousands of years and still no one can show it has any truth, then wow, that's pretty convincing evidence that the damn thing doesn't exist.

    Perhaps what you meant was absence of evidence isn't proof. But that's another matter.
     
  9. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,650
    as an Atheist... as im sure you are... you base your views on the evidense.?

    very good... so do i. but i can show you... the evidense can suggest the application of energy from an outside source... and suggests a pattern which just so happens to fit with Moses genesis....

    The evidense... in general.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!




    The biblical genesis...

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    My proposal...

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!




    now... as an Atheist... you must admit... evidense is everything.

    And i am ready when you are.

    Point is... big bang is full of holes... and is only pushed by those die hard Atheists who happen to be scientists...
    and as such.. refuse to admit the possibility... but the possibility exists.

    Either energy was applied at creation... or the energy was within the singularity.

    Id say... its to close too call... but if i was a betting man... i bet on applied energy... and i say this.. because i have actually studied it in detail.

    -MT
     
  10. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,199
    Mosheh,

    You have that somewhat reversed, most scientists are not religious because they deal with logic as part of their work. But what do you mean by “possibility”?

    Big bang theory still appears very solid although it seems to be morphing into a sub theory within inflationary theory (Guth, Linde). Within that we can see the infinite bubble or multiverse variations, which tend to support an infinite universe. But even there with the issues of dark matter we see the resurrection of the cyclic universe (Steinhardt) http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/steinhardt02/steinhardt02_index.html which is now far more elegant as an explanation for the universe.

    Well no there are many more variations that do not require any fantasy supernatural elements. I think I prefer the cyclic universe here although one of my first posts here in 2000 proposed an infinite bubble theory.

    Not quite sure what you mean by being too close to call. At this point the issue appears wide open and supernatural concepts do not appear to figure very highly as serious contenders.
     
  11. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,650
    You are aware that the hubble has shown the presense of alot.. alot of IRON 13 billion years ago... 13 billions years ago... the first stars...

    have iron.... which if Big Bangs hydrogen/ Helium beginning is at all true...
    cannot be so... but it is....

    and then also the hubble has shown that Galaxys... all.. spirally expand.

    and apear.. 13 billion years ago.. near birth as expanding clouds...
    not condensing clouds...

    this is just two points... but they are literally enough to smash the very foundations of Big Bang... but yet....
    still... maybe its easier to ignore facts.. and rest on the Atheistic confort of a Big Bang.. even though science and evidense has shown it to be foolish.

    -MT
     
  12. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,199
    So what's your point?
     
  13. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,197
    Coufs; Clears throat: Excuse me?. Not all of us atheist support the big bang theory btw. I believe the BB never happened.

    The BigBang never happened.

    Godless
     
  14. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,650
    The point is... Big bang is flawed... and indeed.. it is only by studing the ways in which it is wrong and flawed that we shall be able to see beyond it...

    It is my belief that in time.. all of you shall come to believe in a "Dimensional Progressive pattern apon a Trans-indental fluid..". driven by the application of energy of "specific quality.". these qualities being the means by which the formation of the universe were directly and generally "pre-destined"... in general.

    I would share this with you... and WHY? do you ask?

    technology.... and the future of man...

    i would share my thoughts with you.. that should i die.. you might understand and make use of such in the development of the needed technology.

    Such as weather controll... instant communication systems... space propulsion..
    nuetralized gravity... and weapons and sensors of all kinds.

    I maybe a religious Zelot... But i am first and formost a scientist.. albeit.. a psuedo-scientist at times... but, such are the depths and joys of theory.
    -MT
     
  15. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,650
    thank you Godless... and Yes.. I apologise.

    -MT
     
  16. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,199
    Mosheh,

    It would be helpful if you weren't so vague and would explain your thinking more clearly rather than throwing mystical sounding unexplained terms into the mix.

    On the issue of a creator - which I gather is your belief - you need to show evidence for this rather than show that current scientific theories are flawed and hence a god did it. Absence of a scientific explanation is not evidence of a fantasy.

    If you think you have an entirely scientific solution then that should be discussed in the science forums and not here. So can you offer any evidence for a creator rather than absence of a natural explanation?
     
  17. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,650
    If theory suggests the application energy from an outside sourse...

    then without anything else.... without scripture.. without any religion at all...

    the idea.. of a source of applied energy... would be God.

    beyond that i have nothing more to say... nor should i need to.

    the question is... how do you like your odds.. and how will you bet?
    mind you.. the stakes are your soul.. if one exists.

    -MT
     
  18. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,199
    Mosheh,

    That’s simple invalid logic. A classic fallacy. A non sequitur.

    How about super aliens, how about an infinite array of universes all interchanging energy, how about a whole race of gods, how about energy being transferred from one end of time to the beginning of time, just let your imagination run lose since the god conclusion is just one of a potential infinite number of similar fantasies.

    As I suspected you have nothing more to offer than a god did it because we can’t figure out anything else. Albeit shrouded in pseudo scientific jargon.

    Or more precisely you can’t since you have zilch in the way of evidence for a god.

    You have nothing worth betting on. The odds on one fantasy being correct out of an infinite number is 1/infinity which is mathematically equivalent to zero.

    LOL. Dream on.
     
  19. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,650
    The only thing we actually have is evidense.... and theory to explain it.

    are you willing to discuss the evidense?

    i am... so much so, i have formed a church of science, and my religion is essentially science... and i dont see a contradiction with religion in general.

    But first.... do you consider expanding space, curved space, and atoms being piles of protons and nuetrons as being completely proven?
    and do you still believe in a Hydrogen/Helium beginning?

    because if you do... then you really dont know cosmology... you just think you do.
    The experts know better...
    -MT
     
  20. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,650
    cough... cough... cough,....
    -MT
     
  21. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,199
    MT,

    But you haven't presented any evidence for a god, instead you've suggested that there are things we don't know and then asserted that a god is the answer. But you haven't show any evidence for that.
     
  22. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,197
    scientist have a cure for that cough! A little Nyquil should take care of it.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  23. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,650
    I asked... are you willing to go over said evidense... I.e.. what we have?

    Because my arguement will be.. that if you collect it all together, it does suggest a TOP DOWN formation.... which in it self... suggests a dimensional progressive pattern... which then.. suggests the application of energy from an outside source...
    which for lack of a better term... would be G-D...

    That is my arguement... and my question is...

    are you prepared to go over all of it? because i already have.
    -MT
     

Share This Page