ID cards in UK ?

[EmptyForceOfChi]

the government want every citezen in the UK to carry a personal ID card with a chip in it, vital statistics in card form,


is this right?


i personally will not have one, regardless of the law,

it is quite expensive aswell, not to mention many people wont have the money for one, and will be forced to purchase one,


peace.

[android]

These are those governments based on what we all have in common. Those who are "different" are suspect.

[Baron Max]

Why not carry an ID card? Why is it different, say, to a driver's license? Or an insurance card?

The ID is nothing more than a way for the authorities to know that ye're a legal citizen, and therefore should be accorded all of the rights of citizens. Why should anyone be against that?

Baron Max

[DarkThorn]

I am up for carrying an id card. With one of those it will mean cutting out all of the shite you have to go through now to open a bank account, or start a video shop membership, etc, etc.

I don't understand what the government could possibly do to use them against us in the future? They would make everything easier. In my opinion anyway.

[phlogistician]

I don't understand what the government could possibly do to use them against us in the future? They would make everything easier. In my opinion anyway.

They would make things easier if they were feasible, cheap and infallible.

But they will be neither.

And it will only make things easier while you posess the card. As soon as you lose a card, or it is stolen, or it breaks, then you will be royally screwed.

The whole idea is flawed anyway. Benefit fraud (which the cards will supposedly help cut out) is not ID related, but largely misrepresentation of circumstances.

Terrorism, (which the card will allegedly help combat) has been performed by people carrying real ID (London, Barcelona and 9/11) not fake ID.

Illegal Immigration (which the card will allegedly help prevent) is not ID related, it's due to the fact that immigrants whose applications to live in the UK are rejected, abscond while they are being considered for citizenship. They manage to get cash in hand jobs at present, and will continue to do so, irrespesctive of ID cards.

The downside is that the card will be seen by many as good proof of identity, when we will use current (supposedly less reliable) forms of ID to gain this new one. That doesn't make sense, it's a house built on sand! How many people are there like this guy out there;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4422406.stm

With false credentials already established, who will use them to get a false ID card? How many people avoid the census? Are not registered to vote? How many people will avoid ID cards?

What about cost? The govt themselves don't know how much ID cards will actually cost! They have made statements about how much each citizen will be charged for having one (why charge is they are mandatory, why not absorb all the cost via our taxes?) but not how much each card, and the infrastructure will actually cost!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4443592.stm

Check out the numbers at the end of that article btw, and add them up, and weigh that against the annual running cost of the ID card scheme (not to mentioned the unspecified start up costs!). What benefit are they again?

Also, who swill have access to the data stored on the card, and under what circumstances? What data will be held on the card? DNA eventually? Will that hinder getting insurance, if you show a predisposition towards certain conditions?

Anyway, EDS will most likely get the contract, and it will go over budget, and under perform, based on NHS, DWP, and CSA computer systems.

Put it this way, so far, the NHS has not got every patients records on computer yet. The govt are incapable of organising this. This would be a real benefit to the citizens of the UK, if the govt really care about our health and wellbeing. If ID cards were part of a European wide healthcare system, like the EHIC card, and we could walk into any hospital anywhere within the EU and get medical treatment, supported by our full case notes, that would be a benefit. Then maybe there would be a tangible benefit, rather than the alleged cure for a problem we don't really have.

[DarkThorn]

ok you made some good points there. i'll rethink my position i think.

[john smith]

undecided.

[phlogistician]

Why not carry an ID card? Why is it different, say, to a driver's license? Or an insurance card?

It's your choice to carry them, that's what. If ID cards are introduced, there will be an element of compunction to carry the card to prove your ID. I assume therefore, that the Police will have the right to arrest and detain people who cannot produce a card, until their ID can be determined. So that will mean innocent people being arrested and detained, for forgetting to pick up their ID card, before they go out. That is not acceptable in a free society.

If there is no compunction, what use is an ID card?

The ID is nothing more than a way for the authorities to know that ye're a legal citizen, and therefore should be accorded all of the rights of citizens. Why should anyone be against that?

Because we would need an EU wide card, as EU citizens are free to enter and leave the UK. Proving you are a citizen of the UK would mean nothing, we can't go aresting French people, because they don't have an ID card, and happen to be on holiday in the UK.

So if it's to be any use, it has to be EU wide.

[Baron Max]

That is not acceptable in a free society.

What, exactly, is a "free society"???

It's your choice to carry them, that's what. If ID cards are introduced, there will be an element of compunction to carry the card to prove your ID.

Well, what's the difference in your "choice" to carry a driver's license? Isn't there an "element of compunction" with that? And don't the police have the right to arrest you for not carrying the license? What's the difference?

I think y'all are just being paranoid for no reason.

Baron Max

[john smith]

I guess i dont really see the big problem,(apart from the price) i mean if no one has anything to hide, why should they worry, also if it helps authoritys to catch terrorists, and illegal imegrants, then so much the better. Also if there are known peodophiles in the area, and something 'suspect' occurs, the police will know exactly who and where that person is located.

I maybe wrong, please feel free to correct me as i havent REALLY made up my mind.

[EmptyForceOfChi]

They would make things easier if they were feasible, cheap and infallible.

But they will be neither.

And it will only make things easier while you posess the card. As soon as you lose a card, or it is stolen, or it breaks, then you will be royally screwed.

The whole idea is flawed anyway. Benefit fraud (which the cards will supposedly help cut out) is not ID related, but largely misrepresentation of circumstances.

Terrorism, (which the card will allegedly help combat) has been performed by people carrying real ID (London, Barcelona and 9/11) not fake ID.

Illegal Immigration (which the card will allegedly help prevent) is not ID related, it's due to the fact that immigrants whose applications to live in the UK are rejected, abscond while they are being considered for citizenship. They manage to get cash in hand jobs at present, and will continue to do so, irrespesctive of ID cards.

The downside is that the card will be seen by many as good proof of identity, when we will use current (supposedly less reliable) forms of ID to gain this new one. That doesn't make sense, it's a house built on sand! How many people are there like this guy out there;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4422406.stm

With false credentials already established, who will use them to get a false ID card? How many people avoid the census? Are not registered to vote? How many people will avoid ID cards?

What about cost? The govt themselves don't know how much ID cards will actually cost! They have made statements about how much each citizen will be charged for having one (why charge is they are mandatory, why not absorb all the cost via our taxes?) but not how much each card, and the infrastructure will actually cost!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4443592.stm

Check out the numbers at the end of that article btw, and add them up, and weigh that against the annual running cost of the ID card scheme (not to mentioned the unspecified start up costs!). What benefit are they again?

Also, who swill have access to the data stored on the card, and under what circumstances? What data will be held on the card? DNA eventually? Will that hinder getting insurance, if you show a predisposition towards certain conditions?

Anyway, EDS will most likely get the contract, and it will go over budget, and under perform, based on NHS, DWP, and CSA computer systems.

Put it this way, so far, the NHS has not got every patients records on computer yet. The govt are incapable of organising this. This would be a real benefit to the citizens of the UK, if the govt really care about our health and wellbeing. If ID cards were part of a European wide healthcare system, like the EHIC card, and we could walk into any hospital anywhere within the EU and get medical treatment, supported by our full case notes, that would be a benefit. Then maybe there would be a tangible benefit, rather than the alleged cure for a problem we don't really have.

the cards are quite expensive, especially if your a single mother/father and have 8 kids to get a card for, wich will cost you hundreds of pounds, (wich you havent got)


and also i think this is an invasion of privacy, these cards will work against criminals i think, and they have chips int eh directly put in by the government, so who knows it might be a tracking chip or something more sinister, call me a conspiracy nut, but i dont trust the government with anything like this,

and it wont stop illegal immagrants because just like a passport or anything they can be forged, and solf on black market, also what if you rob some 1 get there id card, and bank setails then go get all there money out, changing the pic on the front on computer or something,


as far as the law advances, criminals will be one step ahead, and work around the law,

peace,

[phlogistician]

What, exactly, is a "free society"???

'Nemo Me Impune Lacessit'

Well, what's the difference in your "choice" to carry a driver's license? Isn't there an "element of compunction" with that? And don't the police have the right to arrest you for not carrying the license? What's the difference?

Even if I'm driving, I am under no compunction to carry my drivers' license. I can be served with a 'production notice' by the Police, and I believe I have 14 days to turn up at a Police station and present my documentation.

I certainly am under no obligation to carry it when I am not driving, nor are the police allowed to ask to see it under those circumstances. We are talking about increasing the powers of the Police here, not just about carrying a piece of plastic.

I think y'all are just being paranoid for no reason.

Baron Max

Not being paranoid, just seeing through the veil of BS that the govt have spun about ID cards. They will achieve little, and cost lots. If we have half a billion pounds to spend annually, we'd be better off spending that on Police officers.

[phlogistician]

I guess i dont really see the big problem,(apart from the price)

OK, so you do have at least one problem with the card. The price. The govt say it will cost you £30. The projected cost is actually over £90, the balance of which they will raise via stealth taxation. The govt are being dishonest over the cost and funding. Either way, it's a state run project, and the state has no money bar what you give it in taxes.

i mean if no one has anything to hide, why should they worry,

Who has access to the data? What is the data? How can you accept something that hasn't been explained to you?

also if it helps authoritys to catch terrorists, and illegal imegrants, then so much the better.

The London and Barcelona bombings, and Sept 11th were all perpetrated by people using their real ID. So how will more ID help stop anything? Unless the card records your religion, in which case, Muslims will simply decline to state their religion, knowing that information could be used to persecute them, won't they? (check how many arrests vs prosecutions there have been under the 'Prevention of Terrorism' act, all targetted at muslims, with a prosecution rate of 1% ish. On average, nearly 1% of the population of the UK are found guilty or cautioned for an offense annually. Now, bearing in mind 96% of the populatin are white, targetting Muslims under 'terrorism' acts, and detaining them without trial for so long is NOT yielding significantly higher conviction rates.

Also if there are known peodophiles in the area, and something 'suspect' occurs, the police will know exactly who and where that person is located.

So, the 'sex offenders register' information will be held on this card? What other crimes? Parking tickets? Speeding? CCJ's, burglary convictions? Even stuff expired under the 'rehabilitation of offenders' act? Of course, no database is perfect (I work in IT) so would you like the idea that you might inherit the criminal record of a different John Smith, or previous occupier of your house?

I maybe wrong, please feel free to correct me as i havent REALLY made up my mind.

I don't think you're wrong, I just don't think people have thought about the practical aspects of ID cards, focussing on the card, rather than the changes to law that are required to make it work.

[taylan007]

Big waste of money!!!!!!!!!!!

"useless against fight of terrorism.." as said by the former head of MI5

I refuse to get one!!!!!

[vslayer]

it takes me under an hour to fake a drivers license that even the police fall for. what makes you think that altering a littel microchip is gonig to be any harder?

[phlogistician]

OK, to put this in perspecive, here's a story about the Child Support Agency (CSA) in the UK. It was brought into being to make errant fathers pay upkeep for their offspring, and is run by a govt favoured IT consultancy called EDS. EDS are behind various other govt projects, like the National Health Service, Department of Work and Pensions, and Ministry of Defense computers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4487202.stm

This system has NEVER worked properly, and is currently on it's second incarnation. It was supposedly about getting errant fathers to pay, but of course, to make it's stats look good, goes for the low hanging fruit, and screws over dads that had maintenance agreements anyway (a colleague of mine got shafted for £700 a month by them, and he wasn't 'errant')

So, this is a rather small system that the govt and EDS can't make work. Now, imagine them trying to register EVERY uk citizen, and tie together various disparate sources of information held on different databases (I have performed this exercise for a company with 20,000 employees, and it was far from easy, they want to do it with 60,000,000!).

[Avatar]

In Estonia they already have such cards. One benefit is that you can vote in elections on the internet with these.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4343374.stm

[phlogistician]

What other info is also held on the card, Avatar, and who has access to that info, under what circumstances? Is it an offense not to carry the card? Can the Police demand to see the card?

[The Flemster]

Howdy all!
ID cards are a terrible idea.
I'm not a conspiricy theorist nut or anything but what's to stop The Government, or whoever else would be interested, tracking owners of ID cards via a transmitting chip (similar to a mobile phone pin card or smaller) and generally stripping the owners of any and all 'privacy'?

That's just me, btw. I WILL NOT carry one, and balls to any law that demands to the contrary!

(Good to be back, btw-- how is everyone?)

The Flemster.

[Avatar]

What other info is also held on the card, Avatar, and who has access to that info, under what circumstances? Is it an offense not to carry the card? Can the Police demand to see the card?

I don't know it in such detail.
What I've heard is that they are simmilar to passports, i.e., you can prove with it your identity everywhere, but it's not required to have it with you.