Turn the other cheek or practice self-defense.

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Cris, Nov 23, 2005.

  1. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Why are Christians so prepared to go to war when the original Christian teachings say to turn the other cheek?

    Vengeance is mine said the lord, i.e. we should not attempt to kill or punish our enemies since God will do that, and we should not kill according to the 6th commandment. Our reward for such abstinence will be heavenly paradise.

    But there has been much dispute over the 6th commandment (Thou Shall not Kill) that many say should really say “Thou Shall not Murder”. That difference leaves open the permission for self-defense and defensive warfare. But doesn’t that conflict with Jesus’ teaching that one should turn the other cheek in the face of an adversary.

    Which teaching should prevail? The older OT commandment (thou shall not murder), which permits self-defense or the NT rule that one should turn the other cheek?

    I think most Christians are hypocritical in this area. While they can understand the Jesus teaching, when it comes to them personally they will fight back – loving your enemy while he is raping your wife is not really a practical scenario.
     
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  3. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

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    When people like Bush say God made him invade Iraq, it being a "holy war", standing up for what is good etc, no self respecting fundie is gonna argue. This is why America had such support for the war. You put something in their face and tell them "God is on our side" and they back it.

    Perhaps this is why American politics is so mixed in with religion, because the power of religion enables them to do things like start unjustified wars, and not only get away with it... But get re-elected at the next election!
     
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  5. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    Exodus 22:2 If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for bloodshed.
     
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  7. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    C20,

    How do you reconcile that with "thou shalll not kill", and Jesus saying turn the other cheek?
     
  8. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    2,017
    Very simply.

    Though shalt not kill means dont think killing is your right. It is not. Thou shalt not kill. Simple in itself.

    Turn the other cheek means if someone slaps you on the cheek, offer them the other one. If someone slaps you on the cheek Cris, it is just a slap. You can bear it and show you are the better person by saying 'Do you wanna hit me this side too?' . The motive is to show the other person that their petty slap is petty and that this could be done differently. Jesus would not have said 'If someone stabs you in the face, offer them your testicles too' because clearly we have gone way beyond ever being able to resolve this situation.

    And the words from Exodus are designed to free the conscience of a person who may have actually killed someone defending their property. It's all really simple. Really simple when kept in context.

    peace

    c20
     
  9. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    3,782
    Because they are not Christians.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  10. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    9,199
    Adstar,

    But according to C20 self defense is acceptable. Turning the other cheek seems to mean no more than ignoring insults about Christianity.

    And if the 6th means do not murder and self defense is acceptable and it is well known that the best form of defense is a proactive action against a known enemy then first strike warfare would appear to be justfiable under Christian doctrine. Would you agree?
     
  11. DarkThorn Registered Senior Member

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    129
    I believe in both

    turn the other cheek if what has been done or said has not effected you in the slightest but if somebody is attacking you physically or mentall and the only way to free yourself from their clutch is to fight back then defense is the only way to go.
     
  12. stretched a junkie's broken promise Valued Senior Member

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    1,244
    “ Why are Christians so prepared to go to war when the original Christian teachings say to turn the other cheek?"

    Quote Adstar:
    "Because they are not Christians."

    * Why does this god not follow his own commandments? Is he not a Christian?

    "And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died." (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

    * Wait, don`t tell me ... I must have the CONTEXT wrong.
     
  13. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    2,017
    Well it is not that you have the context wrong, just that you have failed to provide any context at all.

    The Israelites had asked to be allowed to go and worship their Lord but Pharaoh had refused. They had sought their freedoms peacefully but had been refused again and again. God had chosen the Israelites to be His people and was demonstrating to them through the correct prophecies of Moses, that He was indeed their Lord and would set them free, which He did, crushing the Egyptians spirits as they had done to the Israelites for 430 years, forcing them to let the Israelites go so they did not have to suffer the wrath of God anymore.
    All of these acts carved the way for the idea of the Passover lamb which in itself was prophetic in light of the savior who was to come and indeed was the one whom all the scriptures were to point towards.
    God alone has power over life and death which is why he dictates that killing is not 'our' right to do as we please, as living beings created by Him. If you accept that God owns the clay from which we are made, then who are we to tell the potter what he can or cannot do with his clay. Those who put their trust in him are not put to shame.

    peace

    c20
     
  14. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

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    3,833
    Sometimes one's enemies are not aiming for the face.

    That being said, vengeance is never justified. Justice, however, is. The commandment prohibits anyone from taking justice into their own hands - deciding the death penalty is not in any one person's hands. Governments go to war, not individuals (if you understand what I mean).
     
  15. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Remember that Christians are not perfect, but they are forgiven. Consider how many Christians we have encountered here at Sciforums through the years who hold their own faith in such low regard that their theology allows for the exploitative deathbed conversion. They have no need to repent or behave for more than about twelve seconds at the end of their lives.

    And being Christian is hard work. Kind of like being president in that respect. Just ask ... oh, you know. I mean, really, it's not like the guy is very good at either endeavor.
     
  16. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    No.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  17. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    3,782
    He did not create those laws for himself. He gave them to humanity because of the state of existence we are in. The Laws where created to assist and guide imperfect beings. God has never been restricted by the Laws He gave us to follow. God can end the life of any one He wants whenever He chooses. He has perfect judgement. God deemed that all men would suffer death after Adam and Eve obtained the knowledge of Good and Evil, so in fact God has put us all humans under a death penalty.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  18. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

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    2,936
    Death was an occurrance of all life long before humans came on the scene. Adam and Eve never existed by the way.
     
  19. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

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    3,833
    Chances are slim. If people who've been prophesying, casting out demons and generally being obnoxious people in Jesus' name can remain unknown to him (Matt. 7:23), I don't know how wise it is to stake one's eternal destiny on twelve seconds near the end. Relationships can't be built on thin air. Either way, it's a good thing we don't get to decide who goes where when they die. It's bad enough as it is.

    Welcome back, by the way!
     
  20. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    9,199
    Adstar,

    This cannot be true if he created humans since as you say we are .........imperfect beings. Where was his perfect judegment when he created us?
     
  21. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member

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    Tiassa... good to have you back, I thought you'd copped it me old mate.
     
  22. witnessjudgejury Banned Banned

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    284
    thou shalt not kill was translated incorrectly. It was thou shalt not commit murder.
    The old testament law was an eye for an eye, murder the murderer.

    The New testament was for those who would become christlike or christian. Christ was here to sacrifice himself, to turn the other cheek.

    In order to be with christ you must be christ like.

    Every man would choose to hurt those who hurt them. It takes a real man to turn the other cheek, which is to say "forgive" those who would hurt you. Even Peter cut off the soldiers ear when he came at Jesus, but Jesus glued his ear back on.

    You cannot let a murderer run free so you should execute them. Christs words were meant for personal attacks upon christian. If someone is hurting your family, kill them.
     
  23. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    9,199
    So would Christ have taken up weapons and killed people to help defend his country?

    If not then if Christians are menat to be Christlike is there any justification for any Christian to go to war?
     

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