If theists hold the afterlife and being with god in such high regard, why not just leave this earth to the atheists and go on your merry way? You'll be doing yourself a big favor as well as leaving the earth to those who can appreciate life and all it has to offer.
an impossible dream unfortunately Q. we will just have to wait till they see sense. could be a f**king long time.
You have such a narrow minded view of theists and what they hold dear Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Perhaps, co2, but you would need to show otherwise. At this time, theists are more interested in what happens to them after they die, so much so that they worship a being that can only be acknowledged through death. In this world, they have only faith.
I'm not obessed about what happens to me when I die. I acknowledge life first and foremost. I am here to live life. Death is inevitable. I hope I am transformed in some way when I no longer have a part in this particular world, so that I may continue on and continue to love as I have had the pleasure of doing in this life. Because I have hope, does not negate my current circumstances. I have as much will to invest in this life as you (Q). Why would you propose theists end their lives prematurely? Are you not to be encouraging people to be the best that they can be in this life and invest in this world with a view to a brighter future for all? Who cares what people believe in eh (Q) ? As long as we all practice what we preach right? So why continue to hold such negative views about people who hold different beliefs to you? How is that 'building a better world'? peace c20
I've pondered this reasoning many times. Its like theists are given a choice. Either way they get to see their god. Just remember to be sincere to God when you have to explain a self-generated exit of this world. Why wait? I don't think that's a narrow minded view but a reasonable conclusion when you consider some of the religious logic put forth in this forum. Why would anyone prefer a shitty deal on Earth to Nirvana? Its just another part of the game. Has there ever been any studies into the religious aspect of suicides? Right now we have the extreme over in Iraq but is it possible that the motivation for most suicides is to hook up with God or get out of this life to a better one? Faith would seem a contributing factor to suicide and there's something big time wrong with that. I guess if you figure the suicide for faith rates into the average lifespan of individuals then an atheist, and I'm not suggesting atheists are immune to suicide, would live longer on average.
Why would you propose theists end their lives prematurely? It was, of course, a hypothetical question - I wouldn't wish 2/3 of the worlds population to all leap off a cliff or anything like that. I'm simply wondering why theists don't simply end it all so they can be with their god. If the afterlife is heaven, why do so many bother with their existence on Earth? I'd like to think you'd tend to agree that scientific evidence shows much of how things work in the universe and that you do appreciate what has been discovered and learned thus far. Are you not to be encouraging people to be the best that they can be in this life and invest in this world with a view to a brighter future for all? Who cares what people believe in eh (Q) ? As long as we all practice what we preach right? That is exactly the problem. It is those beliefs that are held by theists that do not allow us to invest in THIS world to secure a brighter future. Instead, their ideals are to invest in the afterlife, as we are all merely pathetic sinners here on Earth who should spend their time preparing for the afterlife and preclude that which is of this world. So why continue to hold such negative views about people who hold different beliefs to you? How is that 'building a better world'? If I have no beliefs, then it isn't possible for me to have different beliefs from theists. It is the lack of beliefs that will make for a better world. Beliefs tend to build for a better death.
some tim back i did some research aboutNDEs....i looked at quite indepth research by Atwater. found out that some NDErs who have exerienced the 'afterlife' and have felt the experiences were positive have committed suicide or attempted to so as to return But i also know tat many suicides involve pople--maybe atiests--who see no rhyme nor reason to life if all tat happens at te end is death and the lck of meaning WHILE alive i challenge BOTH sides some theists--because the many i am experiencing--here included--are literalists. beliving the written myths superficially, and not willing to really explore the myths etc--fo fear, etc and some thiests....well, they seem to me just as much the same. tied to their materialistic religion as fundamentalists BOTH sides DIS-SPIRIT Nature: te teists believe it is created by their 'God' and thus is secondary--not Intelligent in itself and the athiests who adhere to materialism believe also Nature is 'dead', not intelligent in itself tis is no supreise, for both sides come from same rootstock
Many people already do that. I can't blame them - The lure of unlimited virgins in heaven is hard to turn down Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
On the contrary, God can be seen and heard through the works of creation. Psalm 19 (NIV) 1 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. 2 Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. 3 There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. [a] This business about theists thinking they are better off dead is not common to theists per se. Maybe to a few religious nutter clerics trying to convince young people to strap a backpack on their backs and go meet 42 virgins or whatever but these people are in a minority and have political agendas. Note that they encourage others to do their dirty work but don't seem to want a quick serving of 42 virgins themselves Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Because life on Earth is very important. A theist believes in an afterlife, a continuation of existence. If they were to deride any part of that life then they deride the whole life no matter which side of the physical realm they are in. Love is important now. Hey I think science is great. I wouldn't be on a site like this if I wasn't fascinated by things science. The more I realise how complex the nature of things are, the more I stand in awe of God. I am sure there are those who use religious arguments to further their political points and increase their political standing. This does seem to be the way in America from what I have readand I sympathise with those that are atheistic and have to put up with political hypocrisy in the name of religion. Having said that, there were a few scientific projects that would never have gotten my personal approval even before I became a christian such as anything involving cultivating embryos for research. I felt that way long before I became a christian. A bit of a pro-lifer at heart. Well let's not get hung up on the semantics of what belief is. You hold a different understanding to theists lets say. Try and judge each theist on his or her own merits and discern for yourself whether they are trying to halt scientific progress. Be objective (Q). Are their any scientific projects that you personally would not support and why? Thanks c20
What is of this world that we preclude? We live here too, we have just faced the insight that living with God gives us plenty more of life, that is neither seen nor understood by most. Materialistic pleasure such as this messageboard and such as my computer is also a part of my life, science is a part of my life, it may even change it. If anything, our beliefs and arguments gives scientists a push to think again, cause we don't accept just anything. This world is secondary concerning our beliefs, we live here and as such it is of uttermost importance to us, to share our love with others is sharing our love with God and God with us. As such the world is necessary, that it is secondary don't mean that it is unnecessary and totally wrong and dull (and whatever bad you can call it), that it comes secondary just means that it doesn't come first. We know we are all going to die, in this world, as such the world cannot come first - it is too flawed even to hold us. But it is so complete that it can hold love, which makes it second - but not first. What is meaningful for us is what counts here, in this world, materialistical things just haven't got that status of meaningful so as to stretch into the afterlife. Love has such status, faith has such status, but the materialistical things will eventually break down. Sorry, but it just doesn't last.
Utter hogwash. The only thing you have that agnostics and atheists don't is a massive delusion. We (the agnostics and atheists) also feel love, but we also have the ability of free thought. And there goes the assumption that agnostics and atheists are in it for the money just because we have no delusion. And you are right, it lasts until we die. Anything after that is your delusion which you will never find out one way or the other if you are right or wrong.
We (the agnostics and atheists) also feel love, but we also have the ability of free thought. You do realise that this statement is nonsense don't you? EVERYONE has the ability to think freely. I exercise the right and so do you. But you speak as though you are somehow superior to a theist with your extra 'free thinking' abilities Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ! Isn't that the sort of speak you accuse theists of? Are you not one of those objecting to theists imposing their sense of so-called superior ideas on you? Comon, how is your way of life superior to mine KennyJC? What is it that you have that I need and don't? peace c20
If you believe what you read in the bible, and believe if to be truth without question, then you don't have the ability of free thought. Since I have heard you explain to me the afterlife in almost intricate detail, you don't have the ability of free thought. You are deluded.
It seems you are the one limiting what might be true and otherwise by talking in absolutes thus drawing the assumption that I must be deluded. Your position seems very flawed in this respect with regard to 'free thought'. peace c20
I am not the one who has picked out one organised religion over many others, and many others which do not yet exist, could exist or no longer exist. You think the rules of your religion are correct. And I, the acclaimed "free thinker" can come to the conclusion that your religion is as close to 100% false as it can be, and that is assuming there is a God! If there isn't one, then that is bang on 100%.
The last time I was in a church it was to get married. I got divorced two years later and have been living with my partner now some 10 years and have 3 children. I have no idea what organised religion is. I myself am quite disorganised. My 'religion' has two rules . Love God. Love your fellow man. That's it. I'm not a whole lot interested in anything outside those 'rules'. They seem to encompass everything that seems right to me. I'll accept you KennyJC no matter what you believe or don't believe but if you positively reject me because I call those two rules 'good rules' then how can there be any fellowship between us?. And I, the acclaimed "free thinker" can come to the conclusion that your religion is as close to 100% false as it can be, and that is assuming there is a God! If there isn't one, then that is bang on 100%.[/QUOTE] You can come to any conclusion you want to such is the nature of free thought. peace c20
Well from what I have read in your posts you seem like a regular bible basher. You assumed what is written about Jesus in the bible to be true, right up to when he 'ascended to heaven'. You have also described heaven in some detail. That suggests to me more than two rules, and many beliefs which you have gotten from one organised religion.
Haha. Nice to meet you. You seem like a regular bible-basher basher Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I believe what is written about Jesus in the bible to be true. It is a collection of writings that I gain insight into God's nature from. I do not understand where you are coming from on the 'organised' religion thing. Like I said, there are two basic rules that I pick out from this collection of writings about how one should live. I can see nothing in my way of life that would be detrimental to you or (Q) or any atheist. Quite the contrary. Perhaps it is not me you have an issue with but some other theist/s? peace c20
c20 Because life on Earth is very important. A theist believes in an afterlife, a continuation of existence. If they were to deride any part of that life then they deride the whole life no matter which side of the physical realm they are in. Let's look at what Cyperium has to say about that: Here we have a good example of the mindset I was referring. Cuperium is only interested in this world as a 'necessary' stepping stone to heaven. The fact that heaven is a fantasy is not the issue, but the fact that he considers life on Earth as flawed shows that he has very little interest in living as opposed to being dead. His primary concern to living is having faith in his god. It is this type of mindset that causes the many problems prevalent with religion. It shows contempt for life and what nature has to offer. The real and the tangible of life are placed after that which is held as an ideal in the mind. Life then becomes meaningless and is wasted in pursuit of a death with promises of something better. This is not a continuation of existence, but instead is the beginning of an existence that has never been shown to exist. The more I realise how complex the nature of things are, the more I stand in awe of God. But the fact is that when one understands nature more and more, they understand that nature does not reveal gods but instead reveals it for what it is. Try and judge each theist on his or her own merits and discern for yourself whether they are trying to halt scientific progress. I suspect that all theists would demand the halt of scientific progress, since that progress reveals less and less about the existence of gods. Are their any scientific projects that you personally would not support and why? I support all scientific projects.
