What's Worse? Christians, Help Me Please!

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by PsychoticEpisode, Oct 26, 2005.

  1. PsychoticEpisode It is very dry in here today Valued Senior Member

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    3,452
    Being an atheist I wish to understand my religious friends even more. Half of them want to save my soul and the other half think there's no hope for a hell-bound heathen. Since The Big Guy up in Heaven sees fit to put my deeds under the microscope and pass judgement on me, I thought I would rustle up a sampling of different life accomplishments. With the help of my friends I'm hoping I'll gain a greater insight into how God makes judgements for lives lived. I'll give examples of behavior and if its possible I would like to get some sense on how God would handle it or of there are certain guaranteed punishments for certain sins. So what's worse in God's or the religion's eyes .......... Remember all these people have died

    1. A non-baptized baby or a baptized baby? (Babies less than 1 year old)
    2. An law abiding atheist or a church going wife beater?
    3. A pedophile priest or a Satanist?
    4. Incestual Sunday School teacher or gay parishioner?

    Any ideas on who's going where or what's going to happen to them when they die? Can the ultimate judgement be changed if one asks for God's forgiveness?
     
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  3. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    G'Day PsychoticEpisode

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    I believe that humans who have come to the knowledge of Good and evil are deemed unacceptable in eternity with perfection (God). I believe that it is only through the atoning blood of Jesus that we are saved. Humans often try to rate one sin above another but sin is sin and all sins make us fall short of God.

    Your Questions:

    "1. A non-baptized baby or a baptized baby? (Babies less than 1 year old)"

    No difference. Both babies have eternity with Jesus. They have not come to the knowledge of Good and evil yet. baptizing babies comes from the traditions of men true baptism comes when a person makes their own decision to accept Jesus as Messiah. I was baptized when i was a baby. i count it as worthless.



    "2. An law abiding atheist or a church going wife beater?"

    I believe church attendance has nothing to do with ones status as saved or not. i have not been to a church in years. ( well i did go to a church wedding this year but i did not go there as a form of works justification) But having said that if the wife basher believes in Jesus for the atonement of His sin of wife bashing then He will be saved from the lake of fire. I believe there is no such thing as a law abiding athiest. As i said before no one is perfect. There are only the saved and the unsaved.



    3". A pedophile priest or a Satanist?"

    Well as a person who has rejected the catholic religion as false, i do not think any priests will be saved. So i would have to say that both these people are doomed. That is if they continue in their beliefs unto death. As for pedophilia it one of a number of sexual deviancies that are an abomination to God. It is a sure sign that the person engaged in it is not saved.




    "4. Incestual Sunday School teacher or gay parishioner?"

    Is the gay a practicing gay involved in anal sexual intercourse? Does the gay acknowledge before God that their abominable desires are sin? what is the gays attitude to the sin of sodomy? As for the incestual one, i would look upon them in the same light as the priest.

    Sexual deviancy is a sign. scripture says:

    Romans 1
    18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
    24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
    26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
    28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind,
    to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.



    Of course asking Gods forgiveness is acknowledging that ones sin is sin. That means that each and every one of those who practice sexual deviancy can be forgiven. There is only one sin that never has forgiveness and that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.



    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
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  5. every christian on here is going to answer you differently.
    the reason for this is that if you are christian enough, you can wrap your mind around any scenario where god would or would not save someone. each different christian could point to different snippets of scripture that purport to save or condemn any one person in the examples you gave. the bible can be used to justify equal parts compassion and murderous rage in nearly any context. everything is a sin, but since you can pray for forgiveness and be saved, nothing is really a bad enough sin to go to hell for if you just ask nicely. so in short, live how you want and dont lose sleep over hell, its not there anyway.
     
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  7. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    I agree with Adstar.

    c20
     
  8. audible un de plusieurs autres Registered Senior Member

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    no one said the atheist had not wronged someone,(never said sinned because to sin is a religious thing), but most people dont break the law, and that includes atheist.
    lets murder and rape and commit lurd acts, and then we can confess our sins and goto heaven, is'nt that peachy.




    PsychoticEpisode: you may find this entertaining

    an atheist on judgement day

    The line seemed to stretch back forever. Hundreds of millions of souls, waiting patiently for their turn before the throne. The date... Well, the day is Judgment Day, so you won't find it on any calendar. The queue of people winds its way down the mountain, through the valley and off into the far distance. Everybody in the queue can see the final destination at the mountain peak. A hundred miles away, they can see it perfectly clearly. And they wait, moving forward a couple of steps at a time. Towards God, and the Decision.

    At the head of the we find a young Christian, wearing an expression of awe and joy. Behind him, an atheist, looking slightly astonished, examining a leaf she has picked from a nearby bush, trying to decide if it is real or not. Heaven, she thinks, should be whiter, with more dry ice swirling about; not look like a Welsh hillside on a hot day.

    The Christian steps forward for judgment.

    "Hello Martin". God's voice is calm and gentle as He speaks.

    "Erm.. Hello. Lord". Martin's voice is nervous, as a dozen emotions fight for room in his mind at once.

    "This is it. This is where I decide what shall happen to you, Martin. In life, you were a Christian". It was a statement, not a question.

    "I was, Lord. I still am. I have been all my life. I have dedicated myself to your service."

    "Tell me, Martin. Why were you a Christian? Why did you believe in me?"

    "Why? Well... Because you are God! I've always believed in you."

    "That is not what I want to know. Why did you believe?"

    "Because I knew it was true. You were always there for me. You helped me through the bad times. You answered my prayers. You gave me the strength and courage to get through life. I could feel your presence with me all the time."

    "No."

    "Pardon, Lord?"

    "I said no, Martin. I have never helped you. You seemed to be doing perfectly alright by yourself. I heard your prayers, but never answered a single one. Your belief in me definitely helped you on occasion, but I have never intervened in your life. Certainly, you gave me credit for all the good times, but they were your own doing, not mine. You did not feel my presence, because it cannot be felt. The only actual proof you have that I exist at all is here and now. Again, tell me why you believed."

    "I.. I had faith, Lord. Since I was a child I have been to church, prayed and sang every Sunday. My faith in you never wavered. Even when my mother died, I had faith that it was your will, that it was a blessing from you that she passed peacefully. I was raised to believe in you, and as I grew I read the Bible for myself, and learnt of your miracles, and all the saints and martyrs, and the good done in your name. I read the works of great philosophers and they merely strengthened my faith. I knew it was true. "

    "No, Martin. Your mother died of natural causes, and she died peacefully because of the actions of the hospital. I watched and saw, but that is all. As for the rest - the saints, martyrs and philosophers had similar reasons for their belief in me, just as dictators and murderers have had. People have done great good and great harm in my name, and in the names of a thousand false gods. The Bible was written about me, not by me, and was written by people who had similar reasons as you for their belief, just as a thousand other Holy Books have been written about the false gods, or different versions of myself. I ask for the third and final time. Why did you believe in me?"

    Martin looked shocked and ashen, but pulled himself together. His Lord was testing him, and he had lived his entire life for this moment.

    "I believed because I could feel in my heart it was true. You sent your son to die for us, and I gladly accepted Him as my saviour. I.. I just knew it was true, and now that I see you, my faith has been vindicated. I no longer need to believe - I can see for myself the truth and majesty of my religion."

    Quietly, God spoke again. "Martin, you have impressed me". He paused.

    "But... not enough. You believe because you were taught to believe. You believe because you mistakenly attribute to me anything positive that has happened in your life, and discount anything negative. You believe because it is comforting to believe, and because you are frightened of the consequences of my not existing. You believe because... you believe. I'm sorry, Martin, but there is no place for you here."

    God gestured briefly with his fingers, and Martin vanished. His shadow lingered where he had stood, fading rapidly to nothingness.

    The atheist, somewhat shaken by what she had just seen, stepped forward.

    "Hello Eve. I like that name."

    "Ah. Hello, God. Thanks", said Eve, not entirely sure how to address a being she had, until now, considered fictional.

    "Yes, you may call me God. Eve, in life you were an atheist. You doubted my existence, even objecting to the very concept". Again, a statement, not a question.

    "Yes, I did. Clearly, I was mistaken."

    "Clearly. Tell me, are you still an atheist?"

    "I suppose not. I'm not a Christian, Jew or anything else. I guess I'd have to be called an involuntary theist. Ah ha ha", Eve laughed nervously, hoping the very real and solid-looking deity before her had a good sense of humour.

    "Mmm... Tell me, Eve. Why did you not believe in me?". God's voice was kind and gentle once more.

    "At one point I did. I was raised as a Christian, and often went to church, and prayed every night before bed. When I was feeling down I would read the Bible. The act of reading it seemed to comfort me, even though the words themselves didn't seem much help. I think, like Martin, I believed because I believed."

    "And then you lost your faith? You decided I did not exist, and you knew better than those around you? You knew better than your pastor and family?" The voice was losing its kindly edge a little.

    "That is one way of looking at it, yes. What I believed did not seem to fit with other things I knew. The Bible clearly could not be literally true, word for word. I knew from biology and paleontology that humans had evolved like all other life, and were not special creations. How life or the universe began, I still don't know, but could not just merely accept 'God did it' as an explanation. I learned about other religions, and how they all claimed a monopoly on truth, happiness and morality. I saw the good done in your name, but I also saw the oppression, genocide and wars. I saw that if people were in need, it was up to us to deal with it, not to rely on heavenly aid.". Eve felt a little braver, but was expecting the traditional thunderbolt any moment. The people behind her, now at the head of the queue, were slowly moving backwards, trying not to draw attention to themselves.

    "Yet here you are, before your God, on the final Day of Judgment. Why should I allow you in - a heretic, a disbeliever, an infidel - when your predecessor, devout and faithful, full of love for me, was consigned to Oblivion? Tell me why. Justify your entry to my Paradise."

    Eve straightened up, looking God in the face. "Why should you let me in? Because I am better person than you."

    If Eve had looked round, she would have seen the entire line of souls, perfectly still and wide-eyed, staring at her in shock.

    "What did you say?", enquired God. His voice, though barely audible, caused tremors in the mountain.

    Surprised at still being alive, her mouth dry, Eve continued. "I said, because I am a better person. You have shown it yourself already. You told Martin that you watched as his mother became ill and died. You destroyed him for believing for no good reason, when his whole life had been shaped by that belief. Your preachers on Earth encourage unquestioning faith, yet you do not tell us whether that is what you want. You give people no rational basis for belief, and then when they make up their own that is not good enough for you. You listen to our prayers, yet do not answer, leaving people to rationalise events for themselves. People kill and slaughter over trivial differences in doctrine, and you look on. In the churches and temples raised in your glory, children are mentally and physically abused - in your so-called House! All over the world, throughout history, people have murdered each other for believing the wrong thing about God, for believing in the wrong God, or for not believing in any God. The poorest and most helpless people are relentlessly targeted, being told to give what little they have now, for the promise of eternal bliss later. When a person is at his lowest ebb, that is when the smiling missionaries appear, knowing that his life will probably get better naturally and they can give you the credit. In your name, the ends justify the means as long as souls are saved". Eve paused for breath, and continued.

    "And you? All-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing? You just sit here and you watch it all... Any person in this line, had they your power, would show greater compassion and morality. You may be God, but you are far from Godliness."

    God smiled. "Are you finished? Good. Eve, you have impressed me". He paused. Eve held her breath, shoulders tensing.

    "You have impressed me a great deal. You may have believed in me for all the wrong reasons, but you disbelieved for the right reasons. You led a good life, and used the intelligence I give to everybody in the correct way. Even though you came to a conclusion about me that was hopelessly wrong, you came to it in a way that cannot be faulted. You may pass into paradise, Eve, with my blessing."

    Eve did not step forward. Instead, she spoke once more. "No, I will not".

    "No? You refuse Heaven? You defy my will?" The smile had left God's face again.

    "Do you think I would want to spend one more minute, let alone eternity, in your company? You allow people to suffer, sometimes for their entire lives, for no purpose, and then judge them on their reaction. You hide yourself from the world and allow your creations to persecute each other over differing interpretations of the lack of evidence. You see all the pain and ignorance caused in your name, and just sit there as this queue grows daily? And then you have the audacity to punish good people for believing in you 'for the wrong reasons'?"

    "Eve. Enough of this. The gates to Paradise are open to you. Be silent now, and enter."

    "No. If it is a choice between oblivion and an eternity with a monster like you, I gladly choose oblivion. I ask only one thing, before you destroy me."

    "And what is that?" asked God, getting impatient.

    "That, if you can, you look me in the eyes as you do it."





    Shortly afterwards, the next person in the queue stepped towards the top of the mountain, and Judgment.





    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    © Adrian Barnett 2000
    thank you Adrian
     
  9. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,502
    What is "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" anyway? You would think that any God worth His dress would find that particular "crime" the most forgivable. Perhaps the crime of "blasphemy" is inspired by a heresy or even a total collapse of faith somewhere. If "blasphemy" is some kind of injury to the Holy Spirit, its very existence should be dismissed from thought as an impossibility. The One who is greater than a thousand seas, who is higher than the highest mountain, more powerful than a speeding locomotive and all that, His perfection could not possibly be marred by the deeds of humans, let alone a few naughty words and hand gestures.

    No, making blasphemy an offense is a way to break down faith. Maybe it is the only way to mar perfection, because for God to be offended, He has to take offense. Any time He or anyone else takes offense, he uses his own power to take that offense into his life and to make it hurt him. If there is such a thing as the most powerful Being in the universe, and his ability to forgive is no better than that, then it is all a total sham. That is what I think that the invention of the term "blasphemy" is for, to make us believe such things.

    Those who use such fears to keep us in line are deceivers, false prophets. Whatever God is, he is not a sick, pathetic, frightened, deranged child. Only an emotional retard even among humans would not be able to forgive a personal insult, ever. Only a lower being should even be able to be offended so. The "divine mystery" of this is that some humans have decided to use such fears to control our relationship with the divine, to their gain and our detriment.

    I believe that we create God, and we'd better be a little smarter than to create a God for use as a weapon against people we don't like. Right behind the curtain is the fact that we have created a God who is poised to lash out, destructively and even lethally, against anyone for any slightest reason. This God inspires us to do the same ourselves whenever we get the chance. It also inspires us to hate and fear people who aren't like that. I should know. I have been both a target and an offender.
     
  10. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    5,758
    Where does god say it's an abomination to fuck kids?

    From what I can see he says not to have sex with a man as you would a woman, not to have sex with animals, parents or sisters - but I do not see reference to not having sex with children.

    Just curious..
     
  11. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,017
    Jesus said you could say what the hell you wanted about Him and it would be forgiven you. Cursing the Holy Spirit is to curse the spirit of love itself which of course can never be forgiven because to be forgiven means you have to believe in God's love and trust God's love and respect God's love.

    peace

    c20
     
  12. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    20,855
    They have not come to the knowledge of Good and evil yet.

    Is that a prerequisite for salvation?

    Well as a person who has rejected the catholic religion as false, i do not think any priests will be saved.

    Those priests would most likely say the same about you. But considering they are holy men and therefore authorities on the subject of gods, wouldn't you think it be the other way round - that perhaps it is you who will not be saved?
     
  13. beyondtimeandspace Everlasting Student Registered Senior Member

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    554
    1. Better: Baptized baby. Worse: Non-baptized baby.
    2. Better: A law abiding athiest. Worse: A church-going wife beater.
    3. Better: A Satanist. Worse: A pedophilic priest.
    4. Better: Gay parishioner. Worse: Incestual sunday school teacher.

    This would be a Catholic perspective.

    Reasons:

    1. Baptized infant would be promised heaven, non-baptized baby is guaranteed at least (but possibly more) limbo.

    2. The law abiding athiest is honest, the church-going wife beater is dishonest and hypocritical.

    3. Though both of these are terrible, the priest has much more responsibility placed on his shoulders. One of the most reproachable sins is the scandalization of children. How much worse is the violation. As terrible as pedophilia is in itself, it is made tenfold worse by being done by a priest, since he is placed in a position of authority and trust over children.

    4. Being homosexual doesn't mean anything unless active in that. Being incestual necessarily means activity. Furthermore, being a sunday school teacher, the incestual person is living contrarily to what he/she teaches.
     
  14. marv Just a dumb hillbilly... Registered Senior Member

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    743
    PsychoticEpisode, trying to understand the theist is fruitless. Theism is a form of delusion.

    As an atheist, you should just accept them as another human being - except those who would want to kill you because you are an atheist. Then you should kill them first.
     
  15. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Audible - hey, nice story.
     
  16. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    9,199
    Adstar,

    Does that mean you believe all atheists are criminals?
     
  17. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    9,199
    The bible clearly says that the only way to heaven is through asking Jesus for forgiveness and accepting him as your savior.

    Clearly babies can't do that so they will be condemned. Of all the others; providing they have asked nicely and are sincere in their request then they will be saved no matter what their actions. So even if you are perfect but haven't accepted Jesus then you are doomed. And if you are totally corrupt, evil, and sexualy deviant in the worst way, but at some point genuinly and sincerely ask for forgiveness, then you will be saved.
     
  18. PsychoticEpisode It is very dry in here today Valued Senior Member

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    3,452
    The responses are just about what I expected. Different.

    I'll tell you a true story that really solidified my atheist belief. Its a bit off topic but relevant.

    I agreed to be married in a Catholic church to appease the in-laws and keep the peace. Afterall its just another re-enactment of some ancient ceremony and it didn't bother me. In order to be wed my wife and I had to have an interview with the priest who would marry us. At one point he asked my religion. I didn't expect it, being a dumb jock, so in order not to offend I said Protestant(priest already knew I wasn't Catholic). I didn't want any hassles so I played the game. He then asked me what denomination. I thought about a time when I was about 6 or 7 and my mother took me to the only church in town, so I answered Presbyterian. He said I couldn't be. I said, why not? I can still hear his answer every time I look at my darling wife. He said, and I quote, 'Because Presbyterians HATE Catholics'. Needless to say this threw mw for a loop and I came back with the only retort I could muster. I said, ' Obviously, you're wrong'. I ended up being married by another priest because the original took offence.

    Anyway, if every god fearing religious person thinks like that then its easy to understand why the above incident solidified my atheist intentions. If a friggin' priest can make a judgement about me based on some ridiculous preconceived notions then I sure as hell don't stand a chance in front of any god when my turn comes. If I ended up in line like in audible's story and God asked me why I didn't believe I'd have to say that it was important for me to be the faith tester, in other words, helping God make his decisions about others. You know, doing God's work. Don't know how He could refuse me then.

    Oh yeah, after a while I got tired of playing the game and refused to have my kids baptized because the in-laws wanted it. They got pissed when I told them the kids could make that decision for themselves. Because of that I'm going to to meet Hitler in Hell.

    Question: If God wants to punish a Satanist does he send them to heaven?
     
  19. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    5,224
    I thought so, too.
     
  20. Adstar Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,782
    Audible

    The definition was that they abided by the Law. No one abides By Gods Laws because no one is perfect. And as for the Laws of the nations i do not believe anyone could go through their lives and never break a law of state.



    Don't put words into my mouth, Liar. I never said that and never have.



    All Praise The Ancient Of Days







    [/QUOTE]
     
  21. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    3,782
    MetaKron

    Yes you sound like a formerly religious fellow. You where inspired to hate and fear and lash out. But you know what is telling?

    Telling that you don't really know what the sin is at all? But what is even more remarkable is you continued to rant and rave and blaspheme God as if you knew what Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was.

    I am not surprised your religious god inspired you to lash out destructively even lethally because your religious god was created to serve the powers that be on earth. You followed nothing but a construct of deceivers.

    Answer me this. Did you ever read the Words of Jesus?

    Because He described what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was. A group of scribes committed this sin in His very presence. Being a former full on religious guy you must have read the Words of Jesus right??? You know Jesus? Messiah? Lord ? Savior?

    i was going to right up for you a big description of the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit with all the scriptures nicely numbered and quoted for you . But no i will just wait until you, the former full on religious fanatic points to scriptures and describes to me what Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is.



    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  22. Adstar Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,782
    I don't want to ever talk with you again snakelord.

    I deal with formerly abused kids. I have even deal with kids who where in the process of being abused. I cannot type any more my heart is full of rage
     
  23. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    5,758
    I take it that's because you can't answer the question and cannot justify your claim.

    At no time does god prohibit people from bonking children. If you're looking for kid references you'll see god saying to stone them to death if they're naughty or do not honour their parents, but no mention of it being bad to give them a seeing to.

    Considering he took all that time to explain all these rules - even down to what a woman must do when she bleeds, and what a scalp disease looks like, you'd think if it was of any importance he would have at least mentioned that having sex with children was a bad thing. So.. why didn't he?

    Don't take it out on me just because you cannot justify your claims.

    Let's get this straight, pal: I did not say it was ok. I will openly and loudly declare that it is truly sickening above all other things on this planet. As a parent I wouldn't hesitate to kill anyone that even looked at my child in a funny way.

    My question was related to a claim you made, and one that you clearly cannot justify. Your god did not outlaw having sex with children. As I said earlier, he mentioned not sleeping with your parents, sisters or other men.. Nowhere does he say "do not sleep with children".

    Tell you what.. as it pisses you off so much, why don't you stop talking to god?
     

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