Genetics Vs Mormonism & Creationism

**Trilairian** · 09-23-05, 05:05 PM

In the thread where I disproved the bible:
http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=48815
I mentioned that the modern Israelites and Arabs are actually the descendents of the Canaanites rather than their conquerors and neighbors. I've been looking into what genetics has to say about ancestries as related to the claims of religions and found this site to be informative:
http://mormonscripturestudies.com/bomor/twm/lamgen.asp
The Mormons claim that the modern American Indians primarily are descendent from Israelites that boated across the ocean arriving somewhere around central America. They are darker skinned now supposedly because they were cursed due to certain sinful ancestors. This link demonstrates that there is no genetic connection between the American Indians and the Israelites, but instead the genetics demonstrates that they are descendents of multiple waves of migrating Asian ancestors starting over 40 thousand years ago. The genetic evidence goes on to prove that we are not only closely related to chimps but that we are so closely related that we really should be classified as a third species of chimp, the other two being pygmy and common. Our we had a common ancestry with chimps 5-7 million years ago. Archaic homosapiens came about 500 thousand years ago and fully modern humans about 100 thousand years ago. Well there goes the validity of a whole lot of world religions.

**spidergoat** · 09-23-05, 06:12 PM

http://www.life.uiuc.edu/plantbio/26...tumbleweed.jpg

WildBlueYonder · 10-09-05, 02:41 AM

Originally Posted by Trilairian

I've been looking into what genetics has to say about ancestries as related to the claims of religions and found this site to be informative:

Mormons can’t fight DNA evidence

http://mormonscripturestudies.com/bomor/twm/lamgen.asp

¶28 Molecular anthropologists Neil Bradman and Mark Thomas have used the distinctive Cohen modal haplotype to link ancient Hebrews to the modern population of the Lemba. The Lemba, a black southern African Bantu-speaking population, draw upon their oral traditions to assert a Jewish ancestry. Bradman and Thomas note that "claiming Jewish origins is not an unusual phenomenon: the myth of the lost tribes is a powerful story and many groups have claimed to be descendants of one or other of the tribes or have been put forward for that honor."[71] The BoMor claims of an Israelite ancestry for Native Americans would certainly fit into this phenomenon but DNA tests of claims by the Lemba yielded a strikingly different outcome than we have seen with Mormon claims about Native Americans. Two studies have now demonstrated that one of the Lemba clans carries a high frequency of "a particular Y-chromosome termed the 'Cohen modal haplotype,' which is known to be characteristic of the paternally inherited Jewish priesthood and is thought, more generally, to be a potential signature haplotype of Judaic origin."[72] If the BoMor documented actual Israelite migrations to the New World, then one would expect to find similar evidence to that found in a Lemba clan in one or more Native American populations. Such evidence, however, has not been forthcoming.

**Clockwood** · 10-09-05, 02:59 AM

Originally Posted by WildBlueYonder

Mormons can’t fight DNA evidence

Sure they can. All they need to do is get together enough of an angry mob, complete with pitchforks and burning torches, and start mobbing labs. Religions in general have a long history of doing things like that to anything that contradicts them or otherwise piss them off.

**beyondtimeandspace** · 10-09-05, 10:36 PM

"In the thread where I disproved the bible"

That thread hardly does that.

**Trilairian** · 10-09-05, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by beyondtimeandspace

"In the thread where I disproved the bible"

That thread hardly does that.

Yes I did.

**Marlin** · 10-10-05, 02:59 AM

Actually, no one has refuted the Book of Mormon's actual claims about the DNA of its characters yet. This is because the Book of Mormon is mainly silent about such DNA evidence. See the following exhaustive web site by Jeff Lindsay:

Does DNA Evidence Refute the Book of Mormon?

Originally Posted by Jeff Lindsay

The Book of Mormon has come under heavy fire from critics in light of DNA evidence that is said to utterly refute the Book of Mormon, for the evidence points to Asiatic origins, not Middle Eastern origins of the ancient inhabitants of this continent. These attacks typically rely on several faulty assumptions about what the Book of Mormon actually states and do not refute a divine origin for the Book of Mormon. The DNA "proof" has very little to do with the authenticity of the Book of Mormon.
Of the various men and women in three different Old World groups who came to the Americas according to the Book of Mormon, we can only safely state that one of them, Mulek, was definitely Jewish, but we still do not know what kind of DNA he carried. Lehi was somehow descended from Manasseh, but that does not specify what kind of Y-chromosome he had. We have no clue about the genetic origins of his wife or the other individuals that came with him. We know nothing about the genetic origins of others in Mulek's party or the people they almost certainly intermarried with in the Americas. We know nothing about the Jaredites, though they probably originated from Central Asia. The DNA they contributed to the Americas could have looked like Asiatic DNA. Given the uncertainty in the genetic origins of the groups mentioned in the Book of Mormon, one cannot claim that genetic evidence has somehow disproved the Book of Mormon

**Marlin** · 10-10-05, 03:09 AM

Also see

Why Should We Expect to See Jewish DNA in Native Americans?

**beyondtimeandspace** · 10-10-05, 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by Trilairian

Yes I did.

I'm sorry, exactly how does your argument "disprove" the Bible?

If you want, just message me your response, so as to keep this discussion on track. I sure noone wants to see this thread spiral into a topic semi-unrelated.

**duendy** · 10-10-05, 05:42 AM

hah...just read the starter post where it claims the American Indians were 'cursed' and that how they got darker skin......oh my goooooood. who said this , the friggin freaky mormons.
talk about racism made myth
'speakin of the mormons. they are truly spookily VERY commensurate with the Illuminati!!!!!check it out

**Marlin** · 10-10-05, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by duendy

hah...just read the starter post where it claims the American Indians were 'cursed' and that how they got darker skin......oh my goooooood. who said this , the friggin freaky mormons.
talk about racism made myth
'speakin of the mormons. they are truly spookily VERY commensurate with the Illuminati!!!!!check it out

Please see the following web page to refute this idea that dark skin was the curse (note especially when it says that dark skin was a sign of the curse, not the curse itself.

Do Mormons Believe That Dark Skin Is A Curse?

From the "All About Mormons" website:

One of the favorite techniques of anti-Mormons is to falsely say that the Lamanites were cursed with dark skin. They falsely say that Latter-day Saints believe that there is something inherently wrong with someone because he has dark skin. By the dictionary definition of racism, this idea is certainly racist. However, it is not a Latter-day Saint teaching and stands in direct opposition to the Book of Mormon (the keystone of our religion): "... [Jesus Christ] denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God ...(2 Nephi 26:33)

According to President Joseph Fielding Smith,

"The dark skin was the sign of the curse. The curse was the withdrawal of the Spirit of the Lord and the Lamanites becoming a "loathsome and filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.'' The Lord commanded the Nephites not to intermarry with them, for if they did they would partake of the curse." (Answers to Gospel Questions, Vol. 3, p.122)

The dark skin given to the Lamanites was simply a physical characteristic to distinguish the Lamanites and Nephites and to keep them from intermarrying. Skin color has no moral significance one way or the other. Why were the Nephites commanded not to intermarry with the Lamanites? For the same reason that Latter-day Saints today are counseled not to date or marry nonmembers of the Church. Latter-day Saints who are married to nonmembers do not enjoy full Church participation, especially temple marriage. Furthermore, their children are far less likely to be faithful members of the Church. (See Dating Nonmembers)

Also see:

Are Mormons Prejudiced?

**Trilairian** · 10-10-05, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by Marlin

Actually, no one has refuted the Book of Mormon's actual claims about the DNA of its characters yet. This is because the Book of Mormon is mainly silent about such DNA evidence. See the following exhaustive web site by Jeff Lindsay:

Does DNA Evidence Refute the Book of Mormon?

You were proven wrong by genetics. No apologetic arguement saves your religion from that.

**Trilairian** · 10-10-05, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by duendy

hah...just read the starter post where it claims the American Indians were 'cursed' and that how they got darker skin......oh my goooooood. who said this , the friggin freaky mormons.
talk about racism made myth
'speakin of the mormons. they are truly spookily VERY commensurate with the Illuminati!!!!!check it out

They also think the mark of Cain was passed onto his children and that was what led to blacks and so they denied blacks the preistood up until sometime in the '80s.

**Trilairian** · 10-10-05, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by Marlin

Please see the following web page to refute this idea that dark skin was the curse (note especially when it says that dark skin was a sign of the curse, not the curse itself.

Do Mormons Believe That Dark Skin Is A Curse?

Also see:

Are Mormons Prejudiced?

So you are trying to explain away what you now realise is unethical doctrine. What an embarrassment for you.

**Marlin** · 10-10-05, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Trilairian

You were proven wrong by genetics. No apologetic arguement saves your religion from that.

Genetics? So do you know the exact genetic makeup of Lehi, Sariah, Jared, Ishmael, Mulek? Do you claim to know the exact genetic makeup of all Native Americans on both American continents?

**Trilairian** · 10-10-05, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Marlin

Genetics? So do you know the exact genetic makeup of Lehi, Sariah, Jared, Ishmael, Mulek? Do you claim to know the exact genetic makeup of all Native Americans on both American continents?

Since they didn't exist, why would I have to? Seriously, yes the geneticists involved know exactly what components of the genetic make up proves that the American Indians evolved from the same ancestors as did the moden asians and that they did not have a common ancestory with people of the middle east for several tens of thousands of years.

**Marlin** · 10-10-05, 11:11 AM

Unless the geneticists in question have determined that all Native Americans originate in northeast Asia (and I mean ALL, not some representative percentage), you cannot credibly say that there haven't been any groups that have different genes.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

**Trilairian** · 10-10-05, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by Marlin

Unless the geneticists in question have determined that all Native Americans originate in northeast Asia (and I mean ALL, not some representative percentage), you cannot credibly say that there haven't been any groups that have different genes.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

What group has different genes? Prove it. Show me the DNA You are not being honest even with yourself.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The onus is on you. You are going against what has been scientifically accepted.

**Marlin** · 10-10-05, 06:32 PM

"Show me the DNA"??? What am I, the DNA Fairy? I say, YOU show ME that all Native American genes are of Northeast Asian origin. The onus is indeed on you if you're going to claim that NONE of them have Israelite genes. No one has proved that, and I believe no one can.

Plus, I have a spiritual witness that the Book of Mormon is true. Do you?