Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

[Enmos]

i think some people refer to it as a collective conscious?? every action has a reaction so, your actions can either be in tune and in balance with the universe and promote life, or transgression to the law would cause imbalance and destruction/suffering/death.

I don't know how not to be in tune with the universe.. I am part of the universe after all.

of course i do. i'm not sad, but i am not going to pretend like we don't all suffer on a constant basis. we do. otherwise we would have a perfect existence, living in constant and pure joy, perfect harmony, and complete freedom. that doesn't happen on this planet that i'm aware of.

Of course everyone suffers from time to time, and some more than others.
But then, everyone experiences joy and happiness as well.

that's the whole point. i don't want sin. based on my experience, i know that i would much rather not suffer from it.

You don't have to sin if you don't want to. And, really, what is sin? Who determines what sin is?

suffering is not ok with me. i want it abolished.

I'm assuming you mean that you are not ok with suffering.
You want it abolished? Forget it, that's not how it works. You'll just have to make the best of it.

no it's a lack of communion, with god and with each other. communion is a complete and total sharing in love and truth.

What if the truth is that there is no God?

yes, and it's obviously corrupt.

Corrupt in what way? I don;t understand what you mean by 'our flesh is corrupt'. Is a squirrels flesh corrupt too?

[Enmos]

you don't necessarily, not perfect restored communion without the hinderance of sin. in this life, we live is a kind of quasi-communion with god and with each other. it's hindered by what the bible calls sin, which is inherently in our flesh, like a birth defect. before the fall of man, we didn't experience suffering or death because we were in perfect communion. now since the fall, we experience the effects of sin...suffering and death, and so now we know good and evil as god does. so what do you want? what do you choose? wouldn't you like an existance without suffering and death? well, based on our experience, we can realize what is wrong with us, that there is indeed something terribly wrong with us, and if given a way, we can choose what is good. we can choose truth and love and life, over lies, and fear, and death. so by experiencing this life, you can choose to want restored communion and a sinless existence.

Bible this, bible that.. you'll have to do better than that, especially since you claimed not to be a great fan of the bible and have personal experience with God.

[Lori_7]

Bible this, bible that.. you'll have to do better than that, especially since you claimed not to be a great fan of the bible and have personal experience with God.

i never said i wasn't a fan of the bible, i said i'm not a fan of religion. they are not the same things. my experience with god allows me to see truth and religion does not. the holy spirit interprets scripture to me via my personal experience. there have been times when it seemed the bible was the story of my life. the fact is that what it says in the bible about sin and it's effects i can and have experienced in life. it makes sense because of my experience.

[Enmos]

i never said i wasn't a fan of the bible, i said i'm not a fan of religion. they are not the same things. my experience with god allows me to see truth and religion does not. the holy spirit interprets scripture to me via my personal experience. there have been times when it seemed the bible was the story of my life. the fact is that what it says in the bible about sin and it's effects i can and have experienced in life. it makes sense because of my experience.

Ok fine, but you aren't doing a great job in conveying it.

[Lori_7]

I don't know how not to be in tune with the universe.. I am part of the universe after all.

do you not see suffering and destruction and death? hello. that is NOT being in tune with the universe. that is due to transgression of the laws.

Of course everyone suffers from time to time, and some more than others.
But then, everyone experiences joy and happiness as well.

our suffering is constant, even when experiencing joy and happiness. our joy is not pure because we are not free. i'm talking idealism here...all good, no bad, all the time.

You don't have to sin if you don't want to. And, really, what is sin? Who determines what sin is?

you're thinking in terms of an act, which is correct, BUT our acts are contingent upon a lack of communion that is brought about by an inherent genetic defect. this inherent genetic defect is called sin.

I'm assuming you mean that you are not ok with suffering.
You want it abolished? Forget it, that's not how it works. You'll just have to make the best of it.

well that's a piss poor attitude that i do not share with you.

What if the truth is that there is no God?

i know better. but overlooking that for the moment, do you not see that we are covered in lies? no one is 100% truthful. no one shares themselves 100% with each other, and no one has perfect communion with the universe right now. this results in isolation and loneliness and suffering that is constant.

Corrupt in what way? I don;t understand what you mean by 'our flesh is corrupt'. Is a squirrels flesh corrupt too?

i don't know about squirrels. who cares about squirrels? i'm not a fucking squirrel.

there is something in our flesh that prohibits complete communion with each other and the universe. that is called sin, and that is what corrupts us.

[Dywyddyr]

do you not see suffering and destruction and death? hello. that is NOT being in tune with the universe. that is due to transgression of the laws.

Laws?
What laws?

our suffering is constant, even when experiencing joy and happiness.

What?

you're thinking in terms of an act, which is correct, BUT our acts are contingent upon a lack of communion

Nope, not at all.

that is brought about by an inherent genetic defect. this inherent genetic defect is called sin.

That is pure nonsense.

i know better.

Believe, not know.

but overlooking that for the moment, do you not see that we are covered in lies? no one is 100% truthful.

There's a difference between "not 100% truthful" and "covered in lies".

no one shares themselves 100% with each other, and no one has perfect communion with the universe right now.

And if we had that "communion" we wouldn't be human.

this results in isolation and loneliness and suffering that is constant.

Evidence?

there is something in our flesh that prohibits complete communion with each other and the universe. that is called sin, and that is what corrupts us.

You're assuming that complete communion would be a good thing.

[Enmos]

do you not see suffering and destruction and death? hello. that is NOT being in tune with the universe. that is due to transgression of the laws.

Why not? And what laws?

our suffering is constant, even when experiencing joy and happiness. our joy is not pure because we are not free. i'm talking idealism here...all good, no bad, all the time.

Hrm.. speak for yourself. And we ARE free.
"All good, no bad, all the time" is a fairytale. It cannot exist ever. Not in your terminology at least.

you're thinking in terms of an act, which is correct, BUT our acts are contingent upon a lack of communion that is brought about by an inherent genetic defect. this inherent genetic defect is called sin.

There is no genetic defect. In comparison with what template??
This is who we are. You may or may not like who or what we are, but it's what you'll have to do it with.

well that's a piss poor attitude that i do not share with you.

That is a realistic attitude.
Yours only brings more suffering, namely your own and whoever else your drag with you.

i know better.

Correction: You think you know better.

but overlooking that for the moment, do you not see that we are covered in lies?

I'm not "covered in lies". Sure, everyone lies but that's hardly a genetic defect. It's a genetic adaptation. The ability to lie is the result of evolution. And evolution does not make mistakes.

no one is 100% truthful. no one shares themselves 100% with each other,

So? You want to be a drone?

and no one has perfect communion with the universe right now. this results in isolation and loneliness and suffering that is constant.

Yes, we are "in perfect communion with the universe".

i don't know about squirrels. who cares about squirrels?

I do. Don't you care about life?

i'm not a fucking squirrel.

No, you're a fucking human hooman.

there is something in our flesh that prohibits complete communion with each other and the universe. that is called sin, and that is what corrupts us.

Even if it were true that "there is something in our flesh that prohibits complete communion with each other and the universe" then that is who we are. Period.
Who determines what sin is? And compared to what template are we corrupted?

And can you stop saying 'flesh'? It is mildly disturbing.

[Zephyr]

i don't know about squirrels. who cares about squirrels? i'm not a fucking squirrel.

Are you a celibate squirrel?

[wesmorris]

do you not see suffering and destruction and death? hello. that is NOT being in tune with the universe. that is due to transgression of the laws.

I'm sorry to interject but this is obviously incorrect and I think it would help you to try and think this part through: What you see around you must be in tune with the universe... or it could not be. That problem seems to me to be false expectations. You cast your expectation onto the universe to have it dashed time and again, yet never consider that perhaps you should not cast onto it, but absorb from it. Observe reality, then try to comprehend. Taking whatever expectations you were conditioned to have through your life and casting them onto existence is almost surely doomed to disappoint.

our suffering is constant, even when experiencing joy and happiness. our joy is not pure because we are not free. i'm talking idealism here...all good, no bad, all the time.

Honestly, I can't stand it when people focus mainly on suffering. Certainly there is much throughout life, but too often it is caused by the ridiculous expectations cast upon reality, as if it is supposed to bend to one's desire.

[swarm]

do you not see suffering and destruction and death? hello. that is NOT being in tune with the universe.

How is that not in tune with the universe?

our suffering is constant

Wow, I'm glad I'm not "our."

this inherent genetic defect is called sin.

As designed by your god - what a bastard.

do you not see that we are covered in lies?

Covered??? Man you xtians are quite something.

no one is 100%

anything, welcome to reality.

that is what corrupts us.

It seems to be called "being a xtian" too.

[Lori_7]

Why not? And what laws?

because we destroy...subject to law. you know, the laws that govern the universe. ever heard of science?

Hrm.. speak for yourself. And we ARE free.
"All good, no bad, all the time" is a fairytale. It cannot exist ever. Not in your terminology at least.

wow, now that's denial. and your opinion is arbitrary. just because things are good and bad now, doesn't mean the bad has to exist. we're supposed to be learning the difference, and choosing good. it's not a fairytale.

There is no genetic defect. In comparison with what template??
This is who we are. You may or may not like who or what we are, but it's what you'll have to do it with.

there is something wrong with us enmos. the result is suffering. this is rather elementary. the problem with humanity is not quantity, it's quality.

That is a realistic attitude.
Yours only brings more suffering, namely your own and whoever else your drag with you.

"drag with me"?? what are you talking about? this is a personal thing. nobody goes who doesn't choose to go. but many of us will choose to move on to something much better than what you and many others are willing to settle for (for some reason that is beyond me).

Correction: You think you know better.

i know better.

I'm not "covered in lies". Sure, everyone lies but that's hardly a genetic defect. It's a genetic adaptation. The ability to lie is the result of evolution. And evolution does not make mistakes.

way to contradict yourself there. and you're saying that lies are good and beneficial? lies kill. lies steal lives. they rip the very meaning out of life.

So? You want to be a drone?

how in the hell is sharing yourself completely in honesty and love being a drone???????????????

Yes, we are "in perfect communion with the universe".

we are corrected by it, and it hurts, because much of what we do is in complete contradiction to nature and the greater good. if we were in perfect communion, there would be no suffering.

I do. Don't you care about life?

of course i do. you're asking me to speak for a squirrel. i speak about things i can relate to.


No, you're a fucking human hooman.

Even if it were true that "there is something in our flesh that prohibits complete communion with each other and the universe" then that is who we are. Period.
Who determines what sin is? And compared to what template are we corrupted?

And can you stop saying 'flesh'? It is mildly disturbing.

ok, genetic material then. and the condition of it now is not the condition that it will remain in. that's pretty evident from what we know about evolution thus far. there is absolutely no reason to think that we will remain the same forever, other than that you do not understand the story of christ and what it means. anything that results in suffering and death is sin. the lack of communion with god and each other, that isolates us and hurts us, is sin. template? how about a human condition that does not involve suffering?

why is that so impossible for you to conceive of? it's certainly not impossible to see what causes it, and if we see what causes it, then it can be abolished.

[Dywyddyr]

because we destroy...subject to law. you know, the laws that govern the universe. ever heard of science?

It's unfortunate that the word "law" is used since many people think it conflates with "law" as in the legal system.
Laws in science are descriptive, laws in society are prescriptive. They aren't the same thing and don't operate the same way.
Physics (nature) cannot be contravened.

i know better.

No you believe.
Unless you can prove you're right the word "know" does not apply.

we are corrected by it, and it hurts, because much of what we do is in complete contradiction to nature and the greater good. if we were in perfect communion, there would be no suffering.

Again no. We can't operate in contravention to nature.

[Lori_7]

I'm sorry to interject but this is obviously incorrect and I think it would help you to try and think this part through: What you see around you must be in tune with the universe... or it could not be. That problem seems to me to be false expectations. You cast your expectation onto the universe to have it dashed time and again, yet never consider that perhaps you should not cast onto it, but absorb from it. Observe reality, then try to comprehend. Taking whatever expectations you were conditioned to have through your life and casting them onto existence is almost surely doomed to disappoint.





Honestly, I can't stand it when people focus mainly on suffering. Certainly there is much throughout life, but too often it is caused by the ridiculous expectations cast upon reality, as if it is supposed to bend to one's desire.

i look at and experience the world around me, and i observe and experience suffering, among other wonderful things, like love and truth and mercy.

you expect that suffering must continue forever. i do not.

[Lori_7]

It's unfortunate that the word "law" is used since many people think it conflates with "law" as in the legal system.
Laws in science are descriptive, laws in society are prescriptive. They aren't the same thing and don't operate the same way.
Physics (nature) cannot be contravened.

exactly. so we are continually smacked down by our own efforts, into a quagmire of slavery and suffering, that most people are just fine with for some reason i don't understand. i guess they're just so used to it, they can't conceive of another way.

No you believe.
Unless you can prove you're right the word "know" does not apply.

god proved it to me, and god will prove it to the rest of you too.

Again no. We can't operate in contravention to nature.

we do constantly, and we destroy. wake up.

[Dywyddyr]

exactly. so we are continually smacked down by our own efforts, into a quagmire of slavery and suffering

You're gonna have to explain that.

god proved it to me, and god will prove it to the rest of you too.

God, also, is an assumption or belief.

we do constantly, and we destroy. wake up.

Wrong.
We can't.
It's that simple.
Me: Physics (nature) cannot be contravened.
You: exactly.

[Lori_7]

You're gonna have to explain that.

destruction. pain, suffering, sickness, death.

God, also, is an assumption or belief.

god is an entity.

Wrong.
We can't.
It's that simple.
Me: Physics (nature) cannot be contravened.
You: exactly.

well then why in the hell do we keep trying to?

answer: BECAUSE THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH US.

[Dywyddyr]

destruction. pain, suffering, sickness, death.

And we contravene nature (or try to) how, with these?

god is an entity.

God is an assumption.

well then why in the hell do we keep trying to?
answer: BECAUSE THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH US.

Nope.
We don't, generally (except for the crackpots who try "magic" and "psychic powers" etc). We live WITH nature.

[Lori_7]

And we contravene nature (or try to) how, with these?


Nope.
We don't, generally (except for the crackpots who try "magic" and "psychic powers" etc). We live WITH nature.

these are the consequences of our endeavors. we attempt to destroy nature primarily to make money, but nature is winning, and will win. the consequence of our attempts result in our own death. the wages of sin is death. that is according to law (nature).

[Enmos]

because we destroy...subject to law. you know, the laws that govern the universe. ever heard of science?




wow, now that's denial. and your opinion is arbitrary. just because things are good and bad now, doesn't mean the bad has to exist. we're supposed to be learning the difference, and choosing good. it's not a fairytale.




there is something wrong with us enmos. the result is suffering. this is rather elementary. the problem with humanity is not quantity, it's quality.




"drag with me"?? what are you talking about? this is a personal thing. nobody goes who doesn't choose to go. but many of us will choose to move on to something much better than what you and many others are willing to settle for (for some reason that is beyond me).




i know better.




way to contradict yourself there. and you're saying that lies are good and beneficial? lies kill. lies steal lives. they rip the very meaning out of life.




how in the hell is sharing yourself completely in honesty and love being a drone???????????????




we are corrected by it, and it hurts, because much of what we do is in complete contradiction to nature and the greater good. if we were in perfect communion, there would be no suffering.




of course i do. you're asking me to speak for a squirrel. i speak about things i can relate to.


No, you're a fucking human hooman.




ok, genetic material then. and the condition of it now is not the condition that it will remain in. that's pretty evident from what we know about evolution thus far. there is absolutely no reason to think that we will remain the same forever, other than that you do not understand the story of christ and what it means. anything that results in suffering and death is sin. the lack of communion with god and each other, that isolates us and hurts us, is sin. template? how about a human condition that does not involve suffering?

why is that so impossible for you to conceive of? it's certainly not impossible to see what causes it, and if we see what causes it, then it can be abolished.

Forget it..

[Dywyddyr]

these are the consequences of our endeavors. we attempt to destroy nature primarily to make money, but nature is winning, and will win. the consequence of our attempts result in our own death.

Ah I get you now.
We are part of nature. We act according to our nature...
We aren't "going against" nature.

the wages of sin is death. that is according to law (nature).

Nope. Sin is a religious concept.
And it's not a "law". (Neither legal nor physical).