prove to me that god is real

[SnakeLord]

i don't know if they're really forcing anyone

You don't have kids?

so i guess they can't help it

So it is being forced, as I said.

[c7ityi_]

So it is being forced, as I said.

yeah, i guess so.

[Sarkus]

1: archeological discoveries mentioning visiting Joseph in Egypt during a famine, since they were the only source of food...Professor Niebuhr's "Voyage en Arabie"

2: King Nebuchadnezzar's inscription found by Professor Oppert at a site known as Barzippa, 'tongue-tower', otherwise known as the Tower of Babel

3: Moses and Joseph both mentioned in the historical writings of the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, in his book Josephus Against Apion

4: Merenptah-the Egyptian Pharoah was originally discovered in 1898 by French archeologist Victor Loret. The medical examination was only completed in 1975. Due to the examination showing his death by rapid drowning and removal from the water, along with other study gave grounds for the most notable Egyptologist, Sir Flinders Petrie, to conclude that Pharaoh Merenptah was the pharaoh of the book of Exodus.

5: Numerous "seals" have been unearthed in different digs which were directly associated with different historical figures mentioned in the Bible. Among these: Baruch, son of Neriah, friend and scribe for the prophet Jeremiah; Shema, servant of Jeroboam; Abdi, the high official of King Hosea, the last king of the northern kingdom of Israel, before it was conquered by the Assyrian Empire in 721BC.

Wow - but then again I read lots of books in my youth about the Gods of Greece and Rome - all the favourites - Mars, Jupiter, Juno, Neptune etc. Zeus, Poseidon, Hades etc.

All those books referenced REAL people (Odysseus / Ulysses, Julius Ceasar, Paris, Nero, etc) and REAL places (Rome, Troy, Sparta, Gaul, Britain etc).

Are we therefore to believe, based on this type of evidence, that the Roman Gods were also REAL???

[SnakeLord]

Good question Sarkus, and indeed it isn't just books, but artifacts, places, and what not that have been unearthed on different digs - which according to John Mark would undoubtedly make every being from Gilgamesh to father christmas real.

[Diogenes' Dog]

Wow - but then again I read lots of books in my youth about the Gods of Greece and Rome - all the favourites - Mars, Jupiter, Juno, Neptune etc. Zeus, Poseidon, Hades etc.

All those books referenced REAL people (Odysseus / Ulysses, Julius Ceasar, Paris, Nero, etc) and REAL places (Rome, Troy, Sparta, Gaul, Britain etc).

Are we therefore to believe, based on this type of evidence, that the Roman Gods were also REAL???

Just as science progresses, so does religion. We have come a long way from the belief in earth, air, fire and water as elements, or in alchemy, or phlogison theory, or Lemarkian inheretance of acquired characteristics. So it is in religion.

Ancient cultures believed in many gods who were very like us, and around whom stories could be woven which contained important psychological truths e.g. Pandora's box about love, Sisyphus about repetitive struggle etc.

However, the "One True God" as spoken of in the OT (and NT) is a quantum leap beyond these human like gods in being beyond description, or understanding. This God can only be 'known', as a person is known. Indeed this God is not a seperate being, but IS being. "I am that I am"

EXODUS 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Even the Ancient Greeks may have appreciated the difference. The "divine light" that Plato speaks of e.g. in the cave analogy is nothing to do with the greek gods of the time, but was very much the "universal author of all things beautiful and right".

But, whether true or false, my opinion is that in the world of knowledge the idea of good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort; and, when seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right, parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world, and the immediate source of reason and truth in the intellectual; and that this is the power upon which he who would act rationally, either in public or private life must have his eye fixed.

Book VII of Plato's Republic

[Sarkus]

Just as science progresses, so does religion.

Rubbish - religion just moves from one unsubstantiated belief to another, taking on board the scientific progress made in the intervening period.

Ancient cultures believed in many gods who were very like us, and around whom stories could be woven which contained important psychological truths e.g. Pandora's box about love, Sisyphus about repetitive struggle etc.

And now the Bible has done it with just one deity - but is as equally unsubstantiated. Many Gods / One God - it makes no difference.

The point that John Mark E. was making was that the God of the OT and NT IS substantiated because places, names and buildings mentioned in those books could be substantiated - and I hope I have now pointed out the gaping flaw in that line of thinking.

However, the "One True God" as spoken of in the OT (and NT) is a quantum leap beyond these human like gods in being beyond description, or understanding. This God can only be 'known', as a person is known. Indeed this God is not a seperate being, but IS being.

Convenient - that when faced with the "burden of proof" that increasing numbers of people are requiring of religion, religion heads to the "beyond description", the "beyond understanding", and thus hammers the nail of irrationality into itself.

And surely a god that "IS being" is NOT beyond description or understanding - as you have just described it?

[Sarkus]

Book VII of Plato's Republic
But, whether true or false, my opinion is that in the world of knowledge the idea of good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort; and, when seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right, parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world, and the immediate source of reason and truth in the intellectual; and that this is the power upon which he who would act rationally, either in public or private life must have his eye fixed.

You also misunderstand Plato.

He is not talking about God but about the idea of GOOD.
It is the "idea of GOOD" that has the power, that is the universal author of all things beautiful and right.
GOOD.
Not GOD.

He is saying that as long as you have your eye fixed on doing and being good then you are powerful, and will act with reason, rationality and truth.

I see no reason to infer that he was talking of anything other than the concept of good / goodness.

[(Q)]

Just as science progresses, so does religion. We have come a long way from the belief in earth, air, fire and water as elements, or in alchemy, or phlogison theory, or Lemarkian inheretance of acquired characteristics. So it is in religion.

Religion has tried everything to stiffle science and when it found it couldn't decided that, 'If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.' But, more than that, religion attempts to take credit for sciences discoveries.

Ancient cultures believed in many gods who were very like us, and around whom stories could be woven which contained important psychological truths e.g. Pandora's box about love, Sisyphus about repetitive struggle etc.

So, why doesn't anyone believe in those gods anymore? Why don't you?

However, the "One True God" as spoken of in the OT (and NT) is a quantum leap beyond these human like gods in being beyond description, or understanding. This God can only be 'known', as a person is known. Indeed this God is not a seperate being, but IS being. "I am that I am"

"It's such a fine line between stupid an'...

...and clever." ~~ Spinal Tap

hehe, "quantum leap" - you realize that would mean the smallest leap one could possibly measure.

[Godless]

hehe, "quantum leap" - you realize that would mean the smallest leap one could possibly measure.

LOL.. The word "quantum" surely fools many of thinking in large quantity.

[John Mark E]

I have a question for you MW...

If the Israelites based their monotheistic God on the Sun, why would they have used a lunar calendar?

[Sarkus]

If the Israelites based their monotheistic God on the Sun, why would they have used a lunar calendar?

Because the moon could possibly have been seen as the lord of the night, while the sun is lord of the day.
The observation of moon and sun are inextricably linked - the phases of the moon (waxing and waning) are determined by the positions of the sun, moon and earth.

Notice, however, how they DID also use a solar calendar - for their YEARS!

[Rickie]

quote and so were the people who started the wars, in the first place. and if it weren't for these type of people, there would be no wars in the first place.

If you didn't have religions, u would still have war. u can't get away from it cause there will always be people who want more power. they would just use a different excuse to go to war so they can get it.

I'd take more comfort from the fact they did'nt fight in the first place.

I agree. i can't speak for all religions but my belief says u shouldn't harm another person, let alone kill them.

I want my fellow man to enjoy a long and happy life

once again, i agree with u completely

erradicate the mind virus, and there gone.

Once again, u will always have people who want more power, getting rid of religion ( the mind virus, lol i like that ) will not get rid of those people.


it's not so much that they could kill, it the fact they have dont think life is precious, and can stand on the sidelines and watch, cause there going to a heaven, lifes just a stop over, till they met jesus?.
dangerous dangerous nutters.[/QUOTE]

your misunderstanding, life is important. it's the materialistic thing in the world that are not important.

[Rickie]

Hey everyone, i was wondering if anyone could give me a unbiased/neutral opinion of kabbala. beliefs, teachings, things they practice etc, or any links to where i might find out. thanks

[the preacher]

http://www.kabbalaonline.org/
http://www.kabala.org/
http://www.aish.com/spirituality/kab...s_Kabbala$.asp
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/hl/hl93.htm

[spacemansteve]

Just going back to the original question that this thread was based on

also quoting my favourite book Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy

The argument goes something like this
God Says "I refuse to prove i exist, for without proof there is no faith, and without faith i don't exist"
Man Says "But the Babel fish is a clear give away that you do exist, so therefore you don't exist"
God Says "Oh dear, i hadn't thought of that" and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
For an encore man then goes on to prove that black is white and white is black, then gets run over at the next zebra crossing

Always loved that bit of the book

[Parmenides]

You will get various answers. In the end, it depends on what you count as proof or evidence. Perhaps a mystical experience will make you believe in God, or a rational argument, or reading a religious scripture. Or maybe nothing will ever convince you God or some Real exists.

[ghost7584]

any religion i dont care which just prove to me that your god is real! thanks in advance

There is only one true God, the God of Israel, and only one religion He accepts, New Testament based Christianity.
According to Jesus, only God can prove it to you.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Ask God, in an honest heart, to prove it to you. He proved it to me after I requested evidence to know and not just believe.

[the preacher]

He proved it to me after I requested evidence to know and not just believe.

what evidence did it give you, can I see it too, can it effect my senses. hell we all like to see, we'd all be converts.

[SnakeLord]

There is only one true God, the God of Israel

I've heard this so many times, but with a variety of different gods attached on the end. Your claim is as worthless as theirs, and your quoting of biblical text is no different to their quoting of their texts.

Ask God, in an honest heart, to prove it to you

Done, didn't work. Next!

[ghost7584]

what evidence did it give you, can I see it too, can it effect my senses. hell we all like to see, we'd all be converts.

Jesus Christ appeared to me and paraphrased scripture from the New Testament to me as it applied to me.
That was just some of the evidence; there was alot more.

You are mistaken to think that you would all be converts. Satan and his demons, which have telepathic contact to the minds of men, will try to deceive you to deny the evidence or to continue in sin even if you accept it. You would need to prove yourself worthy to continue as a convert. That would involve reading the New Testament over and over again, and repenting of sin and submitting your life to God's will in prayer. Praying, reading the bible, fellowshipping with other Christians, trying to make converts, -- those sorts of things should be done regularly, or you would backslide and not continue to be a convert.
Satan and his devils are highly deceptive and more intelligent than humans. They are disembodied spirits that exist in a spiritual dimension that occupies the same space as the air. They have telepathic contact to the minds of men and would fight your conversion to Christianity at every level.