Don't you sometimes despair for Homo Sapiens? I have a comprehensive religious belief. I believe all, or part, of the mind survives the death of the body. I have thought out all the ifs, buts and maybes of which I am aware and have come to my conclusion. I am aware of some of the weaknesses in my belief and am happy to discuss them. There is only one thing I can guarantee about my beliefs and that is that I AM WRONG There have been millions of other people, some considerably more intelligent than me, who have gone through a similar exercise and come to their beliefs. Since the vast majority disagree with each other, and me, I can safely say that ‘They are wrong’. This matters not. I was lucky enough to come across, and to be persuaded by, my line of reasoning in my twenties after some years of wondering and a bit of on-and-off searching. I have heard nothing to dissuade me, as presumably neither have they, in the years since. When I say I am wrong I obviously think I am on the right lines. The problem is I cannot be sure which bits of my belief are the inaccurate ones. This also matters not. I am content in my beliefs and am sure that I will find out all or part of the truth one day. What I do know is that I am one of the happiest people I know, and others will concede that point. I won’t try and convert you, you will find out one day, and I don’t mind being told that ‘I am out of my tree’, we will find out one day. What I do know is that I belong to a race of creatures which has a staggering propensity for believing something that is completely wrong. Don’t you think that by looking at all the other religions and their believers that we should be rather slower to condemn.
Itseemstome, Absolutely. There is certainly no guarantee that they will survive long-term – they have a momentous capacity for self-destruction. Although as a race they mostly want to live in peace and happiness and it appears that only a tiny minority of extremists could destroy everything – and quite possibly and most likely it will be because of religious beliefs. OK fine, but why? The brain has the equivalent power of some 20,000 high end computers representing a massively parallel processing system unequaled by anything else we can comprehend. We also know that this brain is fragile and is easily damaged. Many thousands of clinical studies on such damage reveals that feelings, thoughts, memories, emotions, etc are all inextricably linked to a healthy brain – damage the brain and one or more of these vital properties will be consequently damaged or lost permanently. My point here is that the mind and brain are essentially one and the same thing and that if the brain is damaged or destroyed then the mind is similarly lost or destroyed. What single fact or piece of evidence can you offer that could possibly indicate anything else? Or in other words is your conviction based on anything of substance or is it just wishful thinking on your part? So have I and have reached the exact opposite conclusion – it is impossible for the mind to survive death of the body (brain) – they are inseparable and dependent. A good start. Although I can safely say that I am right. Hmm you sound just like me – I became a devout Christian for a few years in my late teens and early twenties, but now some 30+ years later I find such beliefs to be quite embarrassing. Ahh I suspect you have not looked very far yet. So why believe anything until you can be sure you are correct? It isn’t necessary to make a choice if there is inadequate support for a particular proposition, one may simply admit there are insufficient facts to support a rational conclusion. Well not much to argue with on that. But being content doesn’t of course mean you are RIGHT or WRONG. It just means you are content and nothing more. I understand there are insane people in asylums who believe they are major celebrities – they too seem very happy. But there is no guarantee that truth is pleasant or will make everyone or anyone happy or content. The fact that you are most likely to die at some point in the future and that you will simply cease to exist should give you pause for concern – convincing yourself that there isn’t a problem and that when you die you will somehow experience something better is pretty much like the proverbial ostrich who buries its head in the sand at a sign of danger (an aside - they don’t actually do that I am told, but you see the point I am sure). Well now that is a real problem – if we cease to exist when we die then clearly we won’t ever find out. I would somewhat like to live a lot longer than my few decades that we have been led to expect. I suspect we can indeed achieve open-ended lifetimes through biology or technology but those goals are not going to be realized unless we make a real effort. Wishing that you will achieve paradise or perhaps continue to survive somehow when you die without any effort is self delusion of the highest degree. Pretty typical until we invented science of course: A few now look to facts before they believe something. Nah – no fun in that. But really I have no problem condemning institutions or individuals who proffer blatant fantasies as if they are real. It is not that I am not open to imaginative speculations or creative hypotheses but that those who assert that such things are true without any credible basis are simply incredibly irresponsible and should be condemned appropriately. But then you do admit that you are wrong so clearly I could never condemn you. Take care.
Fair enough. You don't believe that some part of us survives the death of the body. Another minority view. I anticipate that you're in for a hell of a surprise, but then, of course, I may be wrong. Incidentally, I'm also fascinated by science but I understand that 85% of the universe is missing. The study of the 15% we know about is, however, most interesting.
Itseemstome, Well it’s a lot more than that. There is absolutely nothing that indicates such a thing is possible. Hence there is no reason to believe it true. You imply that that is somehow important. Fortunately truth is not determined by a majority vote, if it were then we would have to conclude that at some time in the past the world was actually flat. Note also that 95% of the world population are essentially failures – it is the minority 5% that rule, lead, and make decisions that everyone else has little choice but to follow like mindless sheep. But the mindlessness of gullible religious believers are of course of an even lower ranking – not you of course since you already strongly suspect you are wrong. Have no doubt – you are wrong – and of course you have no way to show otherwise.
do you measure success by how much control and influence a person holds over other people? i would measure success by the ammount of peace and contentment a person has within them. if it is your truth, you will recognize it easily, seize it and let no one take it from you.
I was, of course, aiming my comments at some of the more extreme religious views one finds on these web-sites, just to give those who hold them pause for thought. I suppose that I should have expected the extremist views from the other end of the spectrum. They add, however, not one iota to the topic in question, they merely say ‘There is no topic’. The presence in this section of those who don’t think the section exists is an interesting point in itself. Just heckling really. That said, I find no problem with the comments, with one exception, ‘The fact that you are most likely to die at some point in the future’. No, I think it is a dead cert. Maybe, just maybe, we’ll have a chance to discuss the matter sometime thereafter. Cheers!
the word "truth" and "delusion" seem to have the same meaning for you. that says a hell of a lot about you.
Well, while we're being pedantic I might aswell point out that it is a common occurence for religious people to "question their faith". It is when the rational part of the brain kicks in and has an argument with the comfort section. One says: "but hang on, this isn't real", while the other says: "dude don't question it, it's all a matter of faith". Deep down there is a desire. It's just not given the attention it deserves. Let it be said: There are no theists in foxholes. I'm sorry, where did you draw this from, and what made you think anyone would know what you're going on about with such a vague and pointless sentence? Do you think it's at all possible you could enlighten me as to how you came up with that conclusion based upon my sentence. I'm intrigued.
do you experience this often or are you speaking on behalf of other people? again is this your expereince or someone elses? the conclusion was drawn from this post. can you not see how you have connected the two words yourself in your own vague and pointless sentence.
ellion, True peace and contentment comes via freedom - most people in the world are not free - they are wage slaves - dependent on the 5% masters who control their lives.
that definitely is true. but i would imagine those masters are neither free, content or at peace, for if they where, would they seek satisfaction as they do now? i would still say they have not truly found success.
Itseemstome, Ahh my phrasing was deliberate and precise. Try this website http://imminst.org/ There are many scientists and philosophers who disagree with your assertion. LOL. Of course it must be noted that you haven’t actually said anything to support your claims except to say that you may be wrong but really implying that you are right. So can we safely assume that since you haven’t attempted to defend your position that you are unable to do so? What then is the value of a topic that is in the end just baseless assertions with no supporting arguments?
Playground humour aside, I have already mentioned that it is quite common among religious people - as stated by those religious people. You know, religious people don't just go to church to confess. Personally I think I made it quite clear in my last post. These questions could have been easily answered if you had have just read my post prior to this one. Absolutely not. You said, and need I quote: "if it is your truth" yada yada yada. Your statement implied that as long as you believe something is true, (thus making it your truth), that you should let nobody take it away from you, but indeed hang onto that truth of yours forever. As a result I added the statement that in doing so a person would never escape their delusions. It really isn't that hard a hurdle to get over, and why you're having such a seemingly hard time grasping it is beyond me. Let's say for arguments sake that one of these truths is that leprechauns are real. They are not. That 'truth', "your truth", is in reality complete bullshit - and yet here you are advising these people to grab hold of it and never let anyone take it away from them. This advice doesn't help anyone, but keeps people forever locked up in their world of make believe and wishful thinking. Of course, from a list of 'your truths', some might be true, some wont be true - but without anything to support the claim that it's true, it really isn't much more than a unsubstantiated assumption. To then grasp onto this assumption and look upon it as truth is an act of lunacy. The same goes for everyone - not just religious people. Let's say for arguments sake that someone believes in the big bang. The idea is to learn, and to be willing to accept that it might need to be changed as time passes. We could just say: "fuck that, this is my truth and I wont let anyone take it away from me", but that is truly naive. I guess the best a person can do is weigh up the possibility and likelihood based upon the evidence that is present to support the idea. That instantly shoves religion out the window. But hey, whatever keeps you happy.
I believe the opposite, the body never dies, because it doesn't end at the borders of your own skin. It lives on through reproduction, even if your branch dies out, because it is still a a part of the tree of life. Only the soul dies, your personality. Personality, awareness are functions of a brain, without it, there is no consciousness.
which makes me ask: what is persona and what is awareness? Persona really means 'mask'--the social roles you play, and the person(a) you THINK you are. this could be, a psychiatrist, who loves classical music, and imagines there's no such things a leprachauns and all the 'stuff o' nonesense'---(reminds me of Scrooge...heh), that he only likes a type of cars, a type of food, cetina decors, people, etc etc. THAt is his persona or mask. and he will use various masks for different roles in the day, but his overall one stays relatively the same, though obviously changes due to life experience So what is awareness? isn't awareness something that all shares? ev en animals, insects, all material reality?
