The Crucifixion of Christianity

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M*W: I found this interesting article on the decline in Christianity on the website for Christianity for the Third Millenium (CTM).

http://www.intac.com

"Christianity in its traditional forms appears to many to be a dying religion. The signs of this death are seen in the declining membership of the mainline protestant traditions and in both the declining attendance and declining authority now seen in the Catholic and orthodox churches. For many people the Christian message as interpreted by the church no longer speaks to the spiritual yearnings that are deep within each of us, nor are the values and standards of the church necessarily operative any longer in the life of our society."

"Christianity for the Third Millennium, Inc., has been formed by Christians who declare that we will not abandon our times in order to be faithful to our Lord. We also believe that only a radical rethinking of the Christian symbols will enable our cherished faith tradition to survive."

"At the present moment no ecclesiastical structure seems capable of addressing this crisis. Poll after poll shows that people who experience a deep spiritual hunger no longer turn to the church to satisfy that yearning. The Roman Catholic hierarchy has responded to this crisis by removing or disciplining its most creative frontier theologians. Protestantism has turned sharply to an irrelevant fundamentalism that is not intellectually credible. Thinking people in both traditions have been reduced to a vague and powerless liberalism that stands for very little. Still other church bodies have withdrawn from the world to search amid pious practices for a unity where no divisive issues can be faced."

"As far as the public voices in the media are concerned people in search of God seem to have the choices of embracing a nineteenth-century protestant certainty that features the easy answers of the old-time evangelical religion or a frightened Catholicism that fights a losing rear guard battle on those issues affecting human sexuality -- abortion, birth control, the ordination of women, and the continued oppression of homosexual people. In defending Christianity, too often these groups set themselves against the knowledge revolution from Galileo to Darwin to Einstein that has eroded the confidence that once undergirded the traditional Christian understanding of life."

Comments, anyone?

 

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Ahh MW,

So christianity is dead and nobody wants to argue.

Listen to the sound of a modern uninspired christian instrumental song:

Jesus Makes Everything Better

My soul waits for you there.

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Peace be with you.

 

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Woody: Ahh MW,

So christianity is dead and nobody wants to argue.

Listen to the sound of a modern uninspired christian instrumental song:

Jesus Makes Everything Better

My soul waits for you there.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Peace be with you.
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M*W: Sorry, I don't have speakers hooked up right now. My son is a christian lyricist and musician. He plays at local churches.

 

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M*W your lucky, I had a listen, the guitar work was good, but the backing was irritating an incessant drone.
what it had to do with jesus, god only knows, pun intended.
if this was him making things better, well now I've got a headache.

oh and woody: how can it be uninspired with a title like "Jesus Makes Everything Better" the performer is obviously a xian. and he quotes scripture to "When anxiety was great within me, your consolation brought joy! (Psalm 94:19) Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. (Mathew 11:28)" (quoted form the site you posted)

quite obviously nobody wants to argue as they know M*Ws right.
I agree with her, I cant wait for the day, religions end especially the xians.

 

MW said,

Good for him. I can imagine a conversation at the family dinner table. Does he have a web site?


Audible said,

God will grant your last wish. He promised He would.

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I say the same thing about this forum.

I return to the music world.

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Cheers!

 

Dear Medicine Woman,

I have a few comments from the Marian Catholic perspective.

In the Last Century a Catholic Visionary (John Bossco) had a vision in which the Catholic Church was symbolized by a great battleship which was surrounded by any number of smaller battleships that were chewing it apart and blowing it to pieces in this big noisy smokey naval battle. The Pope stood at the Helm and first urged attack on one enemy and then would soon declare another, while the waters filled up fuller and fuller with more and more combatants, all blasting away at the Catholic Church. then the Pope was struck down and killed, and almost instantly a New Pope took command. The first thing he did was to surrender every concern but two: The Veneration of the Blessed Virgin, and adherence to the Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist. Nothing else was to be considered worth fighting for. Almost at once, most enemies withdrew. Some enemies stayed to fight over those two Issues, but then some former Enemies actually joined in with the Catholic Battleship.

As this Prophecy indicates, the Catholic Church has been going out of its way to cultivate Enemies.

yes, perhaps some of these Moral Issues which energize Catholics into commencing hostilities against the rest of the World are valid concerns. But what they should consider is that these Moral Issues would not long be a problem if the World could be persuaded to allow a purely Religious Catholic Church to flourish. As the World Populations became Moralized, would not the Abortion issue largely take care of itself? Good Catholics do not have to make laws to constrain all other Peoples. They have only to attract all other Peoples into becoming Good Catholics and then the Laws would be found to be superfluous.

Not that I am in principle making an argument for lawlessness. That would make me somewhat akin to Paul, wouldn't it? But Battles in the World must have a Pragmatic Dimension. The Catholic Church has been getting its ass kicked, and therefore needs to pick its Battles a great deal more selectively.

And do notice that of the Two Things that the Catholic Church was to prioritize upon, the Pauline Doctrines were not included. If the Catholic Church were to jetison all Paulist Influences and Doctrines, then the Zoroastrian Elements of Islam (mystical Islam, if you will accept that contradiction), the Yogic Schools from the Sanskrit Traditions, and much of the Buddhist Disciplines would come to see that there would no longer exist a significant hurdle between themselves and a New Universal Alliance of All Higher Religions. With Paul gone, Christianity would lose all of its offensive bigotry.

 

I am always a little concerned by attacks on just one of the monotheistic religions. If successful they would leave a void to be filled by the others. I, therefore, prefer the even-handed approach, attack the lot. An impressive, to my way of thinking, bit of investigation (by Knight and Lomas; The Book of Hiram) has nicely uncovered the fact that all three are based around Egyptian, or possibly earlier, astronomy. Here goes.

The divine shekinah was a conjunction of Venus and Mercury in the pre-dawn morning sky in 1447 bc. Moses then set fire to a bush using either optical lenses or a small fire glass. (The worlds museums are full of both. There are over 400 near perfect optical lenses in Europe alone. They are classed as jewellery because the experts 'knew' that lenses didn't exist at that time. The fire glasses are classed as make-up bottles despite the fact that the tops are so small that you cannot get anything except water in and out of them, and then only using a pin to do the emptying. They were used as lenses to start fires. See The Crystal Sun by Robert Temple.) He then produced his set of rules and announced they were from God. Thus was born one monotheistic religion.

The divine shekinah was seen in the morning sky in 7 bc, on 25th. December. We call it the star of Bethlehem. The Essene community 'knew' that a Messiah was prophesied. Jeshua, or whatever his name was, went on to complete a number of well-reported actions in just the manner that had been prophesied. (Much as the Jehovah’s Witnesses do today) This included 3 hours on a cross. It takes 3 days to die in this manner, from asphyxiation. The only check on his condition in that time, the spear prod, proved he was very much alive. Thus was born another monotheistic religion.

Some centuries later the divine shakeenah was seen by Mohammed ( This is usually interpreted as ‘The glory of God descended upon him’) who then retired to a cave (Not Plato's!) and announced that he had communicated with God. Thus was born the third major monotheistic religion.

 

You forget that Christ's troubles started the night before when he began praying intensely. The scriptures even report that He was perspiring profusely. He would not again be allowed anything to drink. Then, with His arrest, He would be continuously pummeled and beaten. This would reach a crescendo with the Flogging He would receive. It is common for Flogging victims to die from shock if they are not treated for it immediately, and Christ received no treatment, but just further abuse.

Christ had been reported to have been a sturdy enough man -- a Man who could carry himself with authority. But after about 15 hours of beatings, floggings, shock and dehydration He could no longer support his own weight and carry a piece of wood. In Anne Catherine Emmerich's account, she being Catholicism's foremost Seer and Visionary, she tells us that on three occasions Angels had to come to strengthen Christ so that He would live long enough to be Crucified... a specific amount of penance was expected of Jesus and so He was not permitted to slip off until the correct measure had been thoroughly exacted. And yes, though a healthy man would take three days to die, the Romans fully well knew that such a death amounted to a continuous torture. Roman Solders would not mind torturing their own enemies, but this Christ never offended any of them and so only a Protestant would fail to consider that there could be a motive of Mercy in finishing Christ off, particularly so He could be buried before sunset, and so His poor distraught Mother would not have to stand by agonizing indefinitely. Longinus the Spear Bearer had no interest in sustaining Christ's Murder for the full 3 days.

But you take all of that lightly and suppose He must have been playing possum. That seems very coldblooded and cold hearted of you. I certainly hope you will learn during your lifetime to have more sympathy for those who suffer. So to gain valuable perspective I hope that before you die you suffer at least as much as Christ did, and then you will know for certain or not whether he was just faking it.

 

Itseemstome said,

The medical community agrees that Jesus was very much dead because water came out of his heart when it was pierced. This indicates the final cause of death was a heart attack, and the membrane around the heart was already bursted. He literally died from a broken heart.

The Roman's were experts at crucifiction. The spear in the heart was to guarantee death, to assure nobody was "faking it." There were two other men crucified with him and there legs were broken to assure they died. They were tied to their cross whereas Christ was nailed to the cross. The blood loss from the flogging alone was substantial. The instrument used (flagrum) was like a cat-o-nine-tails with sharp objects imbedded on the tips. The roman flagrum was designed to rip flesh from a man, and could leave a man's bones visible. The usual beating consisted of 40 strikes less one. The average man couldn't survive this kind beating, and yet Christ was crucified in addition to the beating. He lived on the cross for a short time, but this is understandable.

 

your factual evidence for this, would not go amis, thank you.

 

Regarding the OP, I think that people will always have a need for spirituality and religion. We are spiritual creatures, and our religious tendencies reflect that innate, unchangeable nature. Religion will perhaps reflect changing times, but I believe that the more things change, the more they will remain the same. I don't think that Christianity will die (in fact, I believe that Christ's return will soon occur), and further, I think that the values and ethics it espouses will remain relevant in spite of the secular humanist movement that we see today in many people.

Christianity is truth, and truth will endure.

 

welcome marlin,
you do paint a sad sad picture, of the future.
xianity is hypocrisy, it has always been, and it will always be so.

 

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M*W: Leo, I totally agree, but when I was a practicing Catholic, Marian doctrine was not as fundamentally accentuated as you might have experienced. By eliminating Pauline doctrine, it's quite possible that true Christianity would emerge. I just don't think it would/should be called "Christianity." What the NT spells out has nothing to do with the real Jesus; therefore, it cannot describe or even be a reference to what might be real "Christianity."

 

Itseemstome: I am always a little concerned by attacks on just one of the monotheistic religions. If successful they would leave a void to be filled by the others. I, therefore, prefer the even-handed approach, attack the lot. An impressive, to my way of thinking, bit of investigation (by Knight and Lomas; The Book of Hiram) has nicely uncovered the fact that all three are based around Egyptian, or possibly earlier, astronomy. Here goes.
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M*W: Yes, this is true, and when you think about it, there are really no separate religions called "Judaism," "Christianity," and "Islam." They were all created with different names, but they are truly Egyptian in origin.
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Itseemstome: The divine shekinah was a conjunction of Venus and Mercury in the pre-dawn morning sky in 1447 bc. Moses then set fire to a bush using either optical lenses or a small fire glass. (The worlds museums are full of both. There are over 400 near perfect optical lenses in Europe alone. They are classed as jewellery because the experts 'knew' that lenses didn't exist at that time. The fire glasses are classed as make-up bottles despite the fact that the tops are so small that you cannot get anything except water in and out of them, and then only using a pin to do the emptying. They were used as lenses to start fires. See The Crystal Sun by Robert Temple.) He then produced his set of rules and announced they were from God. Thus was born one monotheistic religion.
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M*W: I have seen these lenses on display in our museum of natural science just last week! However, I tend to think that Moses used the Ark to fire-up that bush -- or, since he was on top of the mountain, and it could have been a hot sunny day, the bush could have self-ignited. I've seen this happen when I was a kid living in the deep South, and we had a hot dry spell, grass and bushes would catch on fire. I recall this so vividly, because I got blamed one time for setting them on fire when I was just an innocent passerby.

On thing I take exception to in your post is the "pre-dawn morning sky in 1447 BC." That would have been a century before the time of Moses. However, to make things even more complicated, Moses's grandfather, Tuthmosis III, lived in 1447 BC. I guess back in those ancient times a century here or there isn't that important for dating.
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Itseemstome: The divine shekinah was seen in the morning sky in 7 bc, on 25th. December. We call it the star of Bethlehem. The Essene community 'knew' that a Messiah was prophesied. Jeshua, or whatever his name was, went on to complete a number of well-reported actions in just the manner that had been prophesied. (Much as the Jehovah’s Witnesses do today) This included 3 hours on a cross. It takes 3 days to die in this manner, from asphyxiation. The only check on his condition in that time, the spear prod, proved he was very much alive. Thus was born another monotheistic religion.
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M*W: I would agree with your 7 BC date, but Jesus wasn't born on 25 December according to biblical scholars. They believe he was born in February/March timeframe. The OT authors did make prophecies about the coming of a messiah, but none of them were truly fulfilled. Unfortunately, Paul was very familiar with the OT, and went about creating the fulfillments of these OT prophecies to support the myth he was creating. I seriously doubt that the Rabbi Jesus was on that cross. Many biblical scholars believe he escaped the crucifixion. In any event, there was probably no crucifixion anyway as this was Paul's creation of his dying demigod savior.
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Itseemstome: Some centuries later the divine shakeenah was seen by Mohammed ( This is usually interpreted as ‘The glory of God descended upon him’) who then retired to a cave (Not Plato's!) and announced that he had communicated with God. Thus was born the third major monotheistic religion.
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M*W: I do like your theory. It makes a lot of sense aside from the few holes I spotted. In conclusion, monotheism was officially established as the state religion of Egypt when our familiar Moses was Pharaoh, and that worship was to be directed to Aten, the Sun God. Making matters even more confusing, pharaohs were called many names during their lives. Moses, for example, was named 'Aminadab' at birth. The royal pharaonic family renamed him 'Tuthmosis V,' because he was allegedly taken out of the water. Later, as he grew up to become pharaoh, he was called Amenhotep IV, after his father, Amenhotep III. Then he decided to change his name in the worship of Aten, the Sun God, and he then was called Akhenaten -- meaning 'worshipper of the Sun.' But when he was overthrown and was a major target for assassination, he high-tailed it out into the Sinai desert leading his Egyptian 'sunworshippers' to the Promised Land.

 

Woody: The medical community agrees that Jesus was very much dead because water came out of his heart when it was pierced. This indicates the final cause of death was a heart attack, and the membrane around the heart was already bursted. He literally died from a broken heart.
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M*W: The medical community that came to this conclusion were probably christians. I've also read these medical accounts that say he was pierced in the area of the liver and gall bladder. The "water" that exuded was gall. Humans can easily live without their gallbladders, so aside from any possible infection, Jesus would have made it. But you know where I stand on this. I don't believe he was ever on the cross, but it he was, he somehow escaped alive. In fact, if Jesus or whomever else was dead, they would not have bled. Dead people don't bleed.
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Woody: The Roman's were experts at crucifiction. The spear in the heart was to guarantee death, to assure nobody was "faking it." There were two other men crucified with him and there legs were broken to assure they died. They were tied to their cross whereas Christ was nailed to the cross. The blood loss from the flogging alone was substantial. The instrument used (flagrum) was like a cat-o-nine-tails with sharp objects imbedded on the tips. The roman flagrum was designed to rip flesh from a man, and could leave a man's bones visible. The usual beating consisted of 40 strikes less one. The average man couldn't survive this kind beating, and yet Christ was crucified in addition to the beating. He lived on the cross for a short time, but this is understandable.
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M*W: No doubt that the Romans were skilled with their weapons, and of course, their intent was not to provide merme corporal punishment, but to murder their captives to save them from the rigamarole of having to crucify them.

 

What is hypocritical about the command to "Love thy neighbor as thyself"? Or "Do unto others as you would have others do to you"? Those commandments are the very core of Christianity, and they will continue to have significance as basic laws that have relevance to us, for as long as we exist.

 

What is hypocritical, is you dont do them.
there is far to much to write, to show how hypocritical xianity is, so a good read would be this thread ok http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=42174 and it save me writing it all.

 

The teachings of Christianity are not the same as the actions of said followers of those teachings. There can be hypocritical people who are Christians, and yet Christianity will still be true and right. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Love for God and fellowman will never be outdated or irrelevant, even if some Christians don't practice them perfectly.

I didn't say all Christians are free from hypocrisy. I said Christianity itself is true and will endure.

 

Marlin: The teachings of Christianity are not the same as the actions of said followers of those teachings. There can be hypocritical people who are Christians, and yet Christianity will still be true and right. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Love for God and fellowman will never be outdated or irrelevant, even if some Christians don't practice them perfectly.

I didn't say all Christians are free from hypocrisy. I said Christianity itself is true and will endure.
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M*W: Welcome to sciforums, Marlin. I have one question for you: "If Christianity itself is true and will endure," why is it dying worldwide? Christianity Today magazine has run several articles on this problem, and statistics show that 25% of the world's population are Christian; the other 75% are not, and the numbers are still dropping.

 

I believe it will endure anyway (at least, LDS Christianity will) because it espouses truths that are universal and relevant to all humankind. It will never be wrong to love each other. It will never be wrong to serve God and fellowman. Numbers may fluctuate up and down; that doesn't matter. What's true will remain true regardless of how many people believe (or don't believe) in truth.

Christ is the center of the universe and the Creator of all things. His religion will endure because His purposes cannot be thwarted.