If a man forsakes God

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by water, Mar 1, 2005.

  1. water the sea Registered Senior Member

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    If a man forsakes God



    If a man forsakes God, does God forsake him in return?
    Can a man cause God to forsake him?

    Under what conditions does God do that?
    How does God do that?
    What does the forsaken one experience?
     
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  3. Warrior61 I saw the Light Registered Senior Member

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    Are you asking about Eternal Salvation?
     
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  5. scorpius a realist Valued Senior Member

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  7. Aborted_Fetus Bored Registered Senior Member

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    Well, Christians beleive that God forsakens anyone that is not baptized (by this I mean, anyone that is not baptized is not accepted into Heaven with God, therefore they are forsaken).

    It seems they need to adjust their term "all-loving", or even just put a footnote: *Note: God is not actually all-loving, he just loves people that have been baptized.
     
  8. water the sea Registered Senior Member

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    No. I'm thinking in practical terms: Say that nothing is going my way, I pray and I pray, it only gets worse and worse. And so for years. One day, I'm sick of it, and I say, "God, I hate you, I forsake you!"

    What happens? Does God forsake me? What do I experience then, if He does forsake me?
     
  9. stretched a junkie's broken promise Valued Senior Member

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    When one lets go of expectations from "god" and life, and find gratitude for the simple breath that animates our experience, "god" seems to have a habit of exposing his presence. Yet, as I see it, this "god" and the answers that we seek, are to be found when the conscious searching ends. We find that "god" is just a better understanding and acceptance of our mysteriously shifting human nature.
     
  10. the preacher fur is loose 666 Registered Senior Member

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    water: you'll experience nothing.
    peter o'toole once that he'd prayed for twenty years, then he realised he was talking to himself, and declared he must be god.
     
  11. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

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    3,833
    Hebrews 13:5-6
    Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, 'Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you' [Deut. 31:6&8]. So we say with confidence, 'The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?'​
    "Be content" doesn't mean "be stuck", but it does mean don't let it become more important than God or love. This happens if you starting doubting that God can help you. To put it into perspective: the people who wrote this were being persecuted and killed on a daily basis. Was their hope only for this life? Could they depend on this world for love?

    Hebrews 13 refers to a covenant: a promise written in contract form. The covenant was made to Moses and the Israelites in Deut. 31&32. There God promised not to forsake the children of the promise He made to Abraham. But He knew that the Israelites would forsake Him:
    Deut.21:16-17 And the LORD said to Moses: You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them.

    On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, 'Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?'​
    What does it mean to be forsaken by God? To be left to our own devices. God simply leaves those who leave Him, so in effect, they get what they want. But it can be experienced as punishment, because without God there is no hope.
    Jer. 2:19 Your wickedness will punish you; your backsliding will rebuke you. Consider then and realise how evil and bitter it is for you when you forsake the LORD your God and have no awe of me, declares the Lord, the LORD Almighty.​
    Without God, death is all there is, and every day is more of the same, whatever you make of it, until you die. You'll simply experience life as you are able to see it, and almost everything someone else has will make you jealous. You won't be able to be content, or have peace. Something will always drive you, because you have to take care of yourself or give up... be better than other people or be trampled by them. Trample and be trampled on.

    But in the end, the contract is signed with your whole life as signature. Your whole life will prove whether you have broken it or fulfilled it. God signed it with his own life, with Jesus' blood -- a descendant of Abraham and David -- so that we might inherit Abraham's promises through Him.
     
  12. scorpius a realist Valued Senior Member

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    evil,bitter?
    sounds like your God is the only one whos evil bitter not to mention a vain megalomaniac!
    and with God
    and your point is???
    speak for yourself,dude some of us are happy with what we have.
    more horseshit,
    we dont need to kiss Gods ass to be happy,apparently you do
     
  13. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    Jenyar: What does it mean to be forsaken by God? To be left to our own devices. God simply leaves those who leave Him, so in effect, they get what they want. But it can be experienced as punishment, because without God there is no hope.
    *************
    M*W: What gets me is that you have no proof of what you state. You make all these elaborate professions that you read into bible passages, but you don't know shit from shinola. What is so wrong with being left to our own devices? If there was a god who created us, do you really think he would create us as dumbshits? You really believe this crap!
    *************
    Jenyar: Without God, death is all there is, and every day is more of the same, whatever you make of it, until you die. You'll simply experience life as you are able to see it, and almost everything someone else has will make you jealous. You won't be able to be content, or have peace. Something will always drive you, because you have to take care of yourself or give up... be better than other people or be trampled by them. Trample and be trampled on.
    *************
    M*W: Is this what your life is like? Do you experience what you are able to see? You can ONLY speak for yourself and NO ONE ELSE!
    *************
    Jenyar: But in the end, the contract is signed with your whole life as signature. Your whole life will prove whether you have broken it or fulfilled it. God signed it with his own life, with Jesus' blood -- a descendant of Abraham and David -- so that we might inherit Abraham's promises through Him.
    *************
    M*W: The only contract I have is with myself. I don't make contracts with mythical characters. If Jesus had actually died on the cross, he wouldn't have shed any blood. Dead people don't bleed. Or maybe he did bleed and wasn't really dead. Abraham wasn't Hebrew, in fact, he was more Muslim than Hebrew. Ishmael's descendants are also called God's Chosen People.

    Writing bullshit doesn't make it true. You offer a lot of words to embellish your own rabid belief in your fictional dying demigod savior. You've gone far beyond reality. You live in a fantasy world. Quoting bible scripture also doesn't make it true. You christians are all alike. You don't have two brain cells to rub together, but you quote the hell out of the bible. Does this really confirm your fantasy for you? You're trying real hard to prove your own delusions about a god that doesn't exist and a dying demigod savior who didn't really die. And that leaves you right where you are -- trapped in the inner dark recesses of your delusional mind.
     
  14. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

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    4,832
    Man only forsakes God when God forsakes him.


    Let Him be the first cause.
     
  15. Raithere plagued by infinities Valued Senior Member

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    Jenyar,

    How do you explain then that my experience is so much the opposite?

    I enjoy life, am content and peaceful but also constantly wondering, often excited, and almost always happy. I am not jealous or combative or even overly competitive (although I enjoy the challenge of a good game or argument). I take care of myself as best I can and strive to find ways to help others. I view obstacles, setbacks, and misfortune as a challenges or chances to experience the fullness of life. Even in times of deepest grief I can find the sheer experience of life fulfilling.

    The story you're telling is a fairy tale. Even the most ardent believers face misfortune and death and atheists do not suffer more even though they have abandoned God. Most people I know (primarily Christians) seem to have a much more difficult time getting though these things than I, the atheist. Many times I have found myself consoling and counseling them through their grief and confusion.

    God is not a panacea for all of life's tribulations; rather it seems to me only to offer a distant illusion of hope to the hopeless. I find it false and unkind of you to tell others that faith in God will protect them from life's misfortunes.

    ~Raithere
     
  16. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    2 Chronicles 1-3 The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.

    Oopsie. Shall we continue?

    2 Kings 21:14 And I will forsake the remnant of mine inheritance, and deliver them into the hand of their enemies; and they shall become a prey and a spoil to all their enemies;

    Jeremiah 23:38-40 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you.
     
  17. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

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    Of course you don't have to experience it this way, and Christians don't necessarily experience God more. No, my argument is not the idealistic one you suppose. God is not insurance against suffering, and Christianity is not a guarantee of bliss.

    But the fact that you exhibit Christ-like qualties, and consider them good qualities, shows that God's law is written in people's hearts. We drink from the same fountain. You act with conscience, "with knowledge", and that is what God expects of people -- this is love, this is what gives people hope.

    But why? You constantly strive to help people, to share your happiness with them, but where does it come from? By what standards do you measure your lifestyle to call it "good", and do you feel accountable to them? If you think these things are self evident, common sense -- they're not. Like M*W's, most people's contracts are only with themselves, and as she indicated elsewhere, South Africa has one of the highest crime rates in the world because its traditionally Christian culture has been branded oppressive and is associated with the "old regime". The same happened in Zimbabwe. A different morality exists among people who reject the Christian worldview. Among them, life is as I described it. "Justice" is entirely relative.

    Forsaking God seems an easy decision intellectually, but is much harder in practice, if you actually agree with his laws, his regard for humanity and his definition of love. You have not been forsaken by God, because you have not forsaken Him in word and deed (although that does not make you innocent, you are held accountable by God). By grace you live in a society that has not completely turned their back to God's ways, and among people who still appreciates those principles.
     
  18. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, since the covenant was, after all:
    They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed.​
    I have already said what being forsaken by God looks like. Chronicles and Kings describe the events that lead up to Israel's exile into Babylon and the destruction of Jerusalem (described in 2 Kings 25). The Israelites forsake God generation after generation (with a brief renewal of the covenant by Josiah in 2 Kings 23) Jeremiah 23 shows the meaning of this in more detail: prophets, who would usually tell the people what God says, will be silent.
    Jer. 23:36 But you must not mention 'the oracle of the LORD' again, because every man's own word becomes his oracle and so you distort the words of the living God, the LORD Almighty, our God.​
    The consequences of pretending to speak for God will therefore be the same for the prophet as for the people (note how 'forsake' is translated here):
    Jer. 23:39-40 Therefore, I will surely forget you and cast you out of my presence along with the city I gave to you and your fathers. I will bring upon you everlasting disgrace — everlasting shame that will not be forgotten.​
    And this is how it happened:
    2 Chronicles 36:19-21
    They set fire to God's temple and broke down the wall of Jerusalem; they burned all the palaces and destroyed everything of value there. He carried into exile to Babylon the remnant, who escaped from the sword, and they became servants to him and his sons until the kingdom of Persia came to power. The land enjoyed its sabbath rests; all the time of its desolation it rested, until the seventy years were completed in fulfillment of the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah.​
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2005
  19. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    My point, that you missed, was simply that "never will I forsake you", is a m00t statement. No need to get carried away.
     
  20. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

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    The point is not moot, since it was said within a certain context, i.e. a covenantal agreement, and was made without respect to those who would break this covenant. In other words, the covenant still stands true for those who belong to it. Anybody, at any time, could return to it and again be certain of its promise, since God keeps his "covenant of love" (Nehemiah 1:4-6).

    The whole story of Israel is told in the form of an analogy in Ezekiel 16. It ends like this:
    59 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will deal with you as you deserve, because you have despised my oath by breaking the covenant. 60 Yet I will remember the covenant I made with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you.
    ..
    63 Then, when I make atonement for you for all you have done, you will remember and be ashamed and never again open your mouth because of your humiliation, declares the Sovereign LORD.'​
    Christ atoned for Israel's sins, fulfilling the demands of the covenant, and extended it to the gentiles:
    Ephesians 2:12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.​
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2005
  21. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    It most certainly is m00t given the thread. Water asked if god would forsake people. Your very first comment regarding that question was a biblical quote where god says he will never forsake you. You even went so far as to put 'never' in bold text - as if to make a statement that 'never' is an important word in that quote.

    I then showed biblical text showing that 'never' is wrong, whether it's in bold or not. If you were talking in a "certain context" as you claim, then there would have been no reason to put 'never' in bold.

    Water asked if god can forsake people. I showed that he can, while you highlighted never.

    We done?
     
  22. Raithere plagued by infinities Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks... I think... although I don't know if I like God getting the credit for my effort. But in a metaphorical sense I agree with you to a certain extent.

    Actually, I do think they make sense and are even self-evident given a modicum of thought. Most simply we can look to those values that are prevalent throughout human societies and across religions. Logically, cooperation and compassion make sense as well. There are any number of valid arguments for certain moral values IMO.

    The problem I have with God is that he does not agree with mine, depending of course upon who is speaking for him.

    Should I be wrong and find myself before God I have no problem with this. Of course, I will likewise hold him accountable.

    ~Raithere
     
  23. water the sea Registered Senior Member

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    You are being selective, and are skewing the direction of my question.

    I asked what happens if a man forsakes God. The direction is: man forsakes God first, what happens then?
     

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