The Tomb Of Gilgamesh is found

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Brian Foley, Feb 6, 2005.

  1. Brian Foley REFUSE - RESIST Valued Senior Member

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    The Epic of Gilgamesh was written 1000 years before the Bible , and has been of interest to Christians ever since its discovery in 1853 in the ruins of the great library at Nineveh, with its account of a universal flood it was the basis of the Old testaments Genesis . Along with Samson and the Exodus which are based on Egyptian folklore tales is it fair to surmise that the Bible’s Old testament is an invention .
     
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  3. audible un de plusieurs autres Registered Senior Member

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    finding a tomb, and the epic being true are two different things.
    so it is still fair to surmise, that the Old testament is an invention, most definitely yes.
     
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  5. Brian Foley REFUSE - RESIST Valued Senior Member

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    I never said the epic was true ! just that it was written 1000 years before the OT .
     
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  7. Brutus1964 We are not alone! Registered Senior Member

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    Sorry but the events that happened in the old Testament starting with Genesis occurred way before Gilgamesh or Greek Mythology or any pagan religions. The stories in the Old Testament were all written on individual scrolls before they were compiled into the New Testament. They were past down from Generation to Generation.
     
  8. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry but you simply have no case.

    1) The Epic of Gilgamesh predates biblical texts by around 1,500 years, and so between the two would be considered the source - unless you had something to support the claim that the biblical text was written prior to that - which you do not.

    2) The Sumerian culture came before that of the jews.

    3) Even the bible clearly states in the opening parts of Genesis that the location of the Garden of Eden, (and as such the birthplace of mankind), was in Sumeria. As a result, their stories would be considered more accurate than any later editions because they would have been closer to the actual events.

    4) We can see the influence that the Sumerians had upon the jews and the bible but not vice versa - which shows beyond reasonable doubt that the Sumerians were indeed the earlier culture and that the later jewish culture 'borrowed' from them. A couple of examples:

    a) Several Hebrew months of the year are named after Sumerian gods - such as Tammuz, (named after Damuzi) - Crying for Tammuz is mentioned in Bible, Ezekiel 8:12 (about the same time as the Babylonian exile). They were not crying for the name of a month. They were crying in remembrance of Dumuzi the husband of Inanna who was killed and not able to be revived.

    b) The Sumerian god Utu, (known in Akkadian as Shamash), is the same as the Hebrew word for sun, (Shemesh). Interesting to note that Shamash was a sun god.

    c) Even 'Eden' is from Sumerian, meaning "house of purity", (e-din). Interesting to note that the gods put man to work in the gardens of their holy places - thus: the garden of eden, (garden of the house of purity).

    Need I continue?

    I understand it's putting a thorn in the beliefs you were probably nurtured on when you were young, but you're only lying to yourself if you think you can make such a claim - with no realistic basis, and without any supporting evidence - and actually believe it.

    I know evidence, facts and history don't mean much to you if they were to dare walk upon your heartfelt beliefs, but there must come a time when you open your eyes to them. When you want something so bad you tend to close yourself off to anything else, and deny it no matter how much it's in your face - but that only serves as a detriment to yourself.

    You know, back in the early days of archaeology there was a serious problem with understanding and dating. The reason for this, aside from lack of technology and science, was due to the "divine creation" in 4004 bc. You see, the 'system' had people believe that the world and everything on it was created at that time - and you can imagine the problems that caused. I guess some people still desire that to be true, and yet mankind has long since moved on. This is the same.. mankind has moved on, but alas some seem more content to live in a fictional past, that no matter how much you desire to be true, just isn't.
     
  9. Brutus1964 We are not alone! Registered Senior Member

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    Snakelord

    So what you are saying then is that before God created the heavens and the Earth and before Adam and Eve and Noah, and Abraham and Moses that Gilgamesh had already been written and Greeks formed their myths and pagans had their beliefs and customs. They did all that before God created anything. Yea that makes a lot of sense.

    The truth is that these other civilizations took there beliefs and customs from earlier cavitations that had been passed down. Many of the beliefs were corrupted and they became pagans. However God through his prophets kept the truth and passed it down in scrolls which were eventually compiled together to become the Old Testament as we know it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2005
  10. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    I will not believe that you believe that this is what I said or implied. You make some form of mention of it here:

    The Sumerian culture came before the jewish culture. That's a fact. The Sumerians, (who occupied the southern regions of modern day Iraq), wrote their stories, which were then taken and adapted by later cultures - the Babylonians, Akkadians, Jews.

    If you look at a map you can see how man moved inland, taking his stories with him.

    If you prefer, you can look at it from a biblical perspective: The the garden of eden, and Adam, (Adamu in Sumerian texts), were based in Sumeria. Abraham, the father of the jews, was Sumerian of origin. This in itself would show, (in the very words of the bible), that Sumeria was a culture before the jews were a twinkle in sky daddy's eye.

    The OT texts are clearly based upon the older writings and stories of the Sumerians. This includes the tree of knowledge/life, (Sumerian: fruit of life/fruit of enlightenment), the serpent - indeed the very story of creation. Not to mention the 'floodgates' that god opens when he floods the world which come from Babylonian beliefs concerning the cosmos.

    god's "prophets" wouldn't have even been alive when the Sumerians were already writing the accounts.

    All your wishful thinking and lack of evidence do not in any way help your claims. Even the very book you're trying to support shows beyond any doubt that the Sumerians came first and wrote first. I notice you have nothing with which to argue the case, but instead rely on personal opinion and baseless assumption which are quite simply worthless.

    I have provided a handful of evidence to support my side, can you do the same?
     
  11. Brutus1964 We are not alone! Registered Senior Member

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    Snakelord

    I do understand what you are saying and what I said before was tongue in cheek. I am not denying that the Samarians had these customs and traditions. In fact, cultures around the world that were completely separated have similar stories. What my point is that the Samarians and other civilizations got their traditions from earlier peoples that past them down. How do you explain so many cultures having such similar traditions even though they were continents and oceans apart from each other without any way of communicating? How do you explain ancient cavitations in the American Continent building Pyramids and Temples similar to the ones in Egypt? There are accounts of the flood in ancient Mayan and Aztec art. How do you explain that unless there is some truth to it? Were did all these stories originate from?
     
  12. Neildo Gone Registered Senior Member

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    Damn, Snake, I had a whole post almost typed out then I went and took care of some stuff for a couple hours only to have you say the same stuff I was about to post. It irks me too when people think that life started with Judaism and Christianity while ignoring the Sumerians and Babylonians.

    Well I actually believe most early myths to be true. Myths do become less and less accurate as time goes by, so go to the oldest source of it to find the most accurate version. It just sucks when people take myths 100% literally to make them sound so unbelievable. When something is being described visually that has no word for it, it's going to be described as best they as possible using words they do know but it doesn't mean a horse and chariot is actually flying in the sky, as a classic example. I, too, find it interesting how various cultures in different parts of the world, on different continents, have such similar myths on creation and where they come from.

    - N
     
  13. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    You know by saying this you actually end up in disagreement with the bible. Hopefully you now see why and how it happens - especially when you start taking an interest in ancient history.

    According to the biblical accounts, there wouldn't have been anyone before the Sumerians. Yhwh created everything starting with the Garden of Eden in Sumeria - and everything arose from there.

    Of course, history knows better than that, but although there might have been a few 'settlements' of people before the Sumerians in the area, they still wouldn't have been jewish, and any story passed down from them would have been heard by the Sumerians first and as such would be more accurate an account - The Sumerians were, from what we know, the first to write it down.

    As a result, are we now talking about many gods or just one god? The evidence would suggest many. We can see how the jewish culture adapted multiple gods into one god with the early use of elohim, (gods). You will see many references to multiple gods instead of one in those early parts of genesis, such as:

    Gen 1:26 "Let us make man in our image, our likeness"
    Gen 11:7 "Come, let us go down and confuse their language.."
    Gen 3:22 "And the lord god said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."

    Both Judaism and christianity come from this source, and as time passes new adaptations are made. It is the way it works. These later adaptations would include the book of mormon, Koresh's texts, the quran and so on.

    Quite interesting to note that the father of the jews was a Sumerian and the father of christianity was a jew. It's all about identity change, and yet the only way they could do that in written form would be to incorporate stories they had known since their childhood into their own modified version.

    We could also question how the Egyptians built pyramids - There were step pyramids in Sumeria. But there are several possibilities that need to be looked at.

    1) An early trade route: It might seem unlikely given the time, but spend some time researching into the 'cocaine mummies'. There would have been nowhere else on the planet for Egyptians to get hold of cocaine other than the Americas, and so unless they flew over in UFO's, somekind of trade route can't really be doubted.

    2) Similar abilities yield similar products. It is feasible to consider that cultures at similar stages of progression would make things that appear similar to that of other cultures.

    The problem with 'floods' is that they're a regular occurence, (and even more so without our technology in place to limit them). Thousands of years ago floods would have been dime a dozen, and generally vastly over-inflated by the story tellers of the time. In general no connections can be made between the biblical flood and the floods of other cultures - aside from the Sumerian Utnapishtim version, which not only predates the biblical version, but has many parts that are practically word for word.

    History is quite appealing isn't it?

    Current knowledge of that region would point at the Sumerians, but yhwh is not what people want him to be. He is an adaptation of earlier stories, a collection of ideas and gods melded into one being that suited the new jewish culture, and the much later arrival of jesus is just an extension of that.

    That is the way it is. I couldn't express enough what you're really missing out on. There is an entire world out there with history and beauty. Being able to see it and learn about it is worth the eventual eternal oblivion that we all face. Admittedly we don't really get enough time to learn and see all we would like to, but nowadays it seems most are content to miss everything, instead just hoping they get another try once they're dead. It is all for nought.

    Take care.

    P.S Sorry Neildo

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  14. marv Just a dumb hillbilly... Registered Senior Member

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    The "flood" described in the Epic of Gilgamesh was part of neolithic tradition passed down from the end of the last ice age about 8500BC. In fact there is evidence that there were two, one mainly in the area of the Black Sea caused by overflow of the Mediterranean from the melting ice sheet. The other, a seasonal flooding of unusual magnitude, which had greater impact on the Tigres and Euphrates river settlements.
     
  15. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

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    " How do you explain ancient cavitations in the American Continent building Pyramids and Temples similar to the ones in Egypt?"

    Gravity. A pyramidal structure is easier to build in order to avoid the problem of gravity and the principle of "original horizontality." Structures of monumental effort needed to be stable and a structure of square or rectilinear architecture needs methods to prevent slumping and collapse. With a pyramidal structure, the primary method for this is gravity.

    Prehistoric Mesopotamians built their monumental structures from mudbrick and they took a very early form of the pyramid. These structures are called ziggurats and present a "tiered" architecture, with the highest point being the actual sanctuary. Not surprisingly, they are reminescent of a tiered wedding cake... even bakers have this figured out!

    With regard to the Jewish adoption of the mythology of other cultures, its very apparent to anyone who is capable of reading the various texts as literature. I stress capable, since I believe that most Christians are incapable of doing this as it questions their quite early on in the process.

    Offering literary criticism to great works of literature is a very accepted means of establishing the development and history of literary works and is fine when applied to non-biblical works. We can look critically at Homer for instance, and find reasons to suggest that Homer was not the original author of his works, but rather a re-teller or a compiler of much older, oral traditions of storytelling. The evidence can be found in the literary style, which uses many oral, even song-like, techniques. There are other indications as well, but the point is a criticism of this sort is heralded as academic and insightful.

    But apply the same process of literary criticism to the compilation of jewish and greek literature in the bible, and the reaction is quite different.

    Cultures of the Near East

    It has to be considered that in what we call the Near East (Turkey/Anatolia in the north, down the Mediterranean/Levant along the west, to the Nile valley and back up to the conflux of the Tigris and Euphrates at the Persian Gulf in the east, then back to the north through the Zagros mountains to Turkey/Anatolia), many dynasties came and went, languages evolved, and populations grew and died away - and all in a very small geographic area. Much of it in the part of the Near East referred to as the Levant and the Fertile Crescent.

    It would be impossible for cultural development to occur without intensive interactions between these cultures, and, indeed, the archaeological record reflects this in many ways that I won't bore anyone with unless they're interested.

    Dates

    The "Yahwist Document," often referred to as the "J" document and found embedded in Genesis then through Exodus and Numbers, is the earliest religious writing of the Jews. Its writing dates to as early as 950 BCE and as 842 BCE, depending on whether we accept that it was written in the reign of Rehoboam or Jehoram. Undoubtedly, this was an oral story prior to its writing.

    By contrast, the Sumerian epic of Gilgamesh is easily dated to around 2000 BCE based on the stratigraphy and context of each of the in situ tablets on which the story has been found. Its also relevant to note that the story of Gilgamesh exists in other cultures and is not limited to the Sumerian tablets. There are Hittite and Assyrian texts as well, and this offers some voracity to the notion that the story was popular at around 2200 BCE as well as prolific.

    The Flood myth in other, older cultures

    Not only was Gilgamesh present in several cultures' written records, but the flood myth was as well. In the late 3rd millenium BCE, the Deluge was recorded on cunieform tablets. The story goes like this: the gods have decided to send a flood to destroy the "seed of mankind" since they've become dissatisfied with the "noisy" humans. Ziusudra (which means "life of long days") is chosen by the gods to survive and is instructed to build a "huge boat." Flood sweeps the lands for 7 days and nights until Utu, the Sun God, appears. At this time, Ziusudra sacrifices an ox and is rewarded for obedience with eternal life.

    In the early 2nd millenium, the Deluge is incorporated into the Atrahasis epic. The storyline is essentially the same, but some details are added: the survivor's family is among the boat's passengers, for instance. It was this story that was added to the Gilgamesh epic (tablet 11).

    Kings lists found in the region place "Gilgamesh" as king of Uruk in 2700 BCE.

    Gilgamesh's flood story compared to the later Noachian flood story

    It's obvious that at least one of the authors of Genesis was drawing on existing flood mythology of the region. Why? When religions are in the formative phase of evolving from one stage to another, its important to not entirely dismiss the established beliefs of the people you are trying to influence. The presence of at least two distinct documents in Genesis (the "Yahwist" and the "Elohist") suggests that there are at least two different cults competing for the leadership of the Jewish people. Even the abandonment of polytheism in favor of monotheism doesn't leave out the polytheistic pantheon of gods and derivitives of Caananite names of gods are present as actual figures/supernatural agents in the Pentateuch.

    But the parallels of the Chaldean (Gilgamesh) and Noachian (biblical) flood stories, when looked at as literature, show a distinct evolution of literary style and embellishment as well as deliberate use and omission of Chaldean themes by the Noachian author(s).

    In Gilgamesh, tablet 11, line 145-54, Utnapishtim sets forth a dove on the 7th day, then a swallow, then a raven. The latter "seeing that the waters diminished, [...] circles, caws, and turns not around."

    In Genesis 8:6-12, Noah releases a raven at the end of 40 days, then a dove, then another dove, which returns with an olive leaf, then a final (or the same) dove which "returned no more."

    The Chaldean author(s) writes, "the swallow went forth but came back, since no resting place for it was visible, she turned around."

    The Noachian author(s) writes, "but the dove, finding nowhere to perch, returned to the ark, for there was water over the whole surface of the Earth. Putting is hand out, he took hold of it and braught it back into the ark with him."

    These are two accounts of essentially the same action, but we can see some very clear improvements of the story from Gilgamesh to Genesis. As is true with any culturally shared story, the later one is lengthier with more detail (the same effect can be seen in various sources of the stories compiled by the Brothers Grimm as they compiled their fairy tales from oral traditions of Europe).

    But the similarities are clear: divine decision to send a flood to wipe life off the Earth; selection of a "worthy" man to survive; riding out the storm in a boat; offering sacrifice on dry land following the flood; a covenant with man by the god(s) not do it again.

    The details of the birds are shared by Gilgamesh and Genesis versions but absent in the Deluge and Atrahasis versions, which clearly indicates that Gilgamesh is the biblical source.

    Other parallels of biblical mythology with older Near Eastern mythology

    There exist parallels between creation as told in Genesis and the Enum Elish (the Babylonian genesis); between Joseph & Potiphar's wife and the Egyptian Story of Two Brothers; Biblical law codes and the codes of Hammurabi (1750 BCE), Eshnunna (1900 BCE), Ur-Nammu (2050 BCE), Lipit-Ishtar (1900 BCE), etc.

    Basically, the bible is plagerized.
     
  16. Brian Foley REFUSE - RESIST Valued Senior Member

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    @SnakeLord and SkinWalker
    Thanks for some very interesting information .
     
  17. Brutus1964 We are not alone! Registered Senior Member

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    Skinwalker and snakelord

    Have you ever considered that the story of Noah and Gilgamesh and all the other flood stories are just different discriptions of the same event? The same goes for the Adam and Eve stories. These events accually happened the only difference is along the way some of the names and situations changed. It's just like when a story gets past down a line of people the story always gets mangled and changed by the time it gets to the end.
     
  18. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

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    Absolutely not. Biblical stories are clearly borrowed from much older stories of much older civilizations than the Jewish culture, but like all pre- and proto-historic stories and mythology, their basis is in magical thinking and superstition. We should expect that "flood" stories are present in most human societies since we are an animal that depends upon water very heavily, particularly since the invention of agriculture around 7500-8500 BCE. Even before then, early humans would have inhabited riverine and seaside locations for the availability of food that could be hunted or gathered.

    Floods for these people are inevitable events as is the development of mythology that caters to the superstitions of the people.

    That a global flood took place in the 150,000 to 200,000 years H. sapiens have existed as a species is preposterous. Anyone who thinks so is allowing themselves to be subjected to the superstitions of people who lived as much as 4000 years ago rather than the intellectual reason that modern humans are capable of.

    Its a shame that those that revere the Bible don't accept it for what it truly is: a wonderful source of wisdom and insight into human history and values that has much to teach us. Instead, fundamentalist and uneducated believers (not necessarily both at the same time) embrace this religious text as the literal word of a god that cannot be questioned or critically examined.

    This, in my opinion, may one day become the downfall of Christianity, since science will continue to examine the observable universe and provide reasoned explanations and hypotheses that can be tested, which will allow us to make predictions about new observations (this is true prophecy!). Those that cling to the "literal truth" of an ancient superstition will go the way of an outdated fad.

    However, if Christianity were to adapt and evolve, recognizing the wisdom and value of it's bible, without demanding that the colorful stories in them are literally true and factual; if Christianity should instead promote these stories as parables of wisdom that are meant to be allegories of truth - then Christianity might stand a chance at survival.

    If fundamentalists who cling to creation mythology and demand that Noachian flood be taught as fact continue their path, it will only be a matter of time before they lose the majority of their followers. By around 2050, science will have a look at the human genome like it never has and anthropologists will be able to look at populations, now and in the past, like never before. It'll be possible to trace individual lines and show timelines of evolution not only to the first H. sapiens, but back through early hominids, primates, shrews, fish, etc.

    It'll be hard to look at this kind of science as well as other major advances in other fields, and believe that the Earth is anything less than 4.6 billion years, that someone was able to put millions of species of animals on one boat made of wood and ride out a month and half long storm only to repopulate the planet... Hell, its hard to believe that bullshit now if you have any kind of decent education in science.
     
  19. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

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    5,874
    This one occured at least two thousand years before the invention of writing AFAIK, are you suggesting that oral tradition was able to maintain the gist of the story long enough.

    This one also has some possibilities, but it hasn't been clearly demonstrated that their was a single flood of great enough magnitude to propagate a myth that would endure time and cross cultures.

    They're both worth discussion, however. I'm of mixed opinion about the oral tradition capabilities of ancient peoples.
     
  20. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Old post reference

    I'm digging from a post I wrote nearly four years ago on the subject of the Flood and evolution:

    Robert J Wenke, a University of Washington professor, includes in the third edition of his text, Patterns in Prehistory: Humankind's First Three-Million Years (New York/Oxford: Oxford Press, 1990) a few similarities 'twixt the Biblical flood and a Babylonian cuneiform predating the Old Testament by "thousands of years." (p. 354)

    * Babylonian: 1) The gods decide to make a flood; 2) The God Ea warns Artahasis to build a ship; 3) He is to take his family and animals aboard; 4) The flood turns mankind into clay; 5) The ship grounds on Mount Nisir; 6) Ataharsis learns when the waters have subsided by sending out a dove, a swallow, and a raven; 7) He offers sacrifice to the gods; 8) The gods smell the sweet savor; 9) The god Enlil blesses Artarhasis and his wife.

    * Genesis: 1) The Lord decides to destroy wicked mankind; 2) The Lord warns Noah to build an ark; 3) Noah is to take his family and animals aboard; 4) The flood destroys all flesh; 5) The ark comes to rest on the Ararat Mountains; 6) Noah learns when the waters have subsided by sending out a dove, a swallow, and a raven; 7) He offers sacrifice to the Lord; 8) The Lord smells the pleasing odor; 9) God blesses Noah and his sons.

    #42796
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2005
  21. Constantijn Registered Member

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    wow!!! SnakeLord and SkinWalker you guys rule!

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    Could you be so kind to give me some titles of literature that I certainly should read with relation to this subject?
     
  22. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

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    The vast majority of the information I've presented in this thread came from the Pritchard (1955) citation below, but you'll probably find the Ryan & Pittman (1998) book extremely interesting. I wrote a paper on this in November... perhaps I'll put it on the web and post a link to it in this thread if you're interested.

    Edit: A decent library should have most of these and I'll bet you can find the Ryan & Pittman book in a used book store for around $6. Keep a look out for Stephanie Daley's book on Mesopotamian Mythology. I no longer have that one, but Barnes & Noble had it for around $10.

    References

    Pritchard, J. B. (1955). Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament. Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press

    Ryan, W. B. F., & Pittman, W. C. (1998, 24 April). Letters Response. Science, 280(5363), 499.

    Ryan, W., Pittman, W. I., Major, C., Shimkus, K., Moskalenko, V., Jones, G., et al. (1997). An abrubt drowning of the Black Sea shelf. Marine Geology, 138, 119-126.

    Ryan, W., & Pittman, W. (1998). Noah's Flood: News Scientific Discoveries About the Event that Changed History. New York: Simon & Schuster.

    Postgate, J. N. (1994). Early Mesopotamia: Society and Economy at the Dawn of History. London: Routledge.

    Vansina, J. (1985). Oral Tradition as History. University of Wisconsin Press.
     
  23. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    5,758
    I would add to that in suggesting you read some Samuel Noah Kramer.

    As for specific stories, you should check out sacred text archive which has a few of the Sumerian texts.. (Enuma Elish/Gilgamesh etc)
     

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