Mormon Teachings

[Marlin]

Jenyar, I am not an authority on the Great Apostasy. The reason I believe Mormon doctrine is because:

1) I read and studied the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the D&C, and the Pearl of Great Price over the years; and

2) God has repeatedly borne witness within my heart and mind that LDS doctrine is true and correct, that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that Jesus is the Christ.

It all boils down to: Do you have a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true, or not? If the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith must have been a true prophet, and if so, the revelations he received were truly from God. If this is so, then the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true also.

So the question is, Is the Book of Mormon true?

And the answer may be found in Moroni 10:3-5 of the BoM:

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful• the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder• it in your hearts•.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true•; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real• intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth• of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know• the truth• of all things.

I challenge anyone reading this to heed the above quote (called "Moroni's Promise") and read, study and pray about the Book of Mormon. Moroni's Promise works!

[Jenyar]

Jenyar, I am not an authority on the Great Apostasy. The reason I believe Mormon doctrine is because:

1) I read and studied the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the D&C, and the Pearl of Great Price over the years; and

2) God has repeatedly borne witness within my heart and mind that LDS doctrine is true and correct, that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that Jesus is the Christ.

"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light" (2 Cor. 11:14).

Compare these two horsemen:

Rev. 6:1-2
I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Rev. 19:11-15
I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

If you study them, they look the same - they might even stir up the same feelings and the same hopes. But one of them is false. People also studied the Bagavad Ghita and the Vedas for centuries. I'm sure they were convinced of their truth as well.

Once you have chosen to accept something that proposes to supercede the authority of original witnesses, you are already in territory where "confirmation" isn't valid anymore. You've lowered your standards and your guard, and with those lower standards even a lie might seem relatively true. All you are telling me is to ignore the Bible and believe the Mormons. How am I supposed to accept that?

Besides, if you hold the Melchizedek or Aaronic priesthood (which I assume you do), how can you not be an authority on it? What authority do you have then?

It all boils down to: Do you have a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true, or not? If the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith must have been a true prophet, and if so, the revelations he received were truly from God. If this is so, then the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true also.

So the question is, Is the Book of Mormon true?

And the answer may be found in Moroni 10:3-5 of the BoM:

I challenge anyone reading this to heed the above quote (called "Moroni's Promise") and read, study and pray about the Book of Mormon. Moroni's Promise works!

So Mormons added to the doctrine of the Bible, and build into it an "assurance" that it's true. With that "assurance", you added to the Book of Mormon as well. And I'm sure it all keeps on affirming itself.

Before Jesus ascended into heaven, He said these words:

Acts 1:7-9 "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

And Paul writes to Timothy:

"And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others." (2 Tim. 2:2)

Jesus said the Spirit will testify about Him, just like the disciples around Him (John 15:26-27). But you have relativized these original witnesses almost out of existence, robbing them of all authority in the name of a new revelation, as if to divert the purpose of the Spirit. You say Moroni is an angel? If you have to refer to Mormon links and angels to explain your gospel, it seems your faith is not in your hands anymore. Someone's running it for you.

Galatians 1:6-9
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel — which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

[water]

I challenge anyone reading this to heed the above quote (called "Moroni's Promise") and read, study and pray about the Book of Mormon. Moroni's Promise works!

Why didn't it work on me?
About two years of studying and praying, and nothing.

[Marlin]

Jenyar, sound and fury, signifying nothing. My testimony of the truth stands, whatever you may say about it to the contrary.

water, keep trying. The witness comes after the trial of faith. Faith precedes the miracle.

[water]

water, keep trying. The witness comes after the trial of faith. Faith precedes the miracle.

Why should I keep trying?
Why?

[Marlin]

Why should I keep trying?
Why?

Because your eternal salvation hangs in the balance, that's why.

[Marlin]

Marlin writes:
Jenyar, I am not an authority on the Great Apostasy. The reason I believe Mormon doctrine is because:

1) I read and studied the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the D&C, and the Pearl of Great Price over the years; and

2) God has repeatedly borne witness within my heart and mind that LDS doctrine is true and correct, that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that Jesus is the Christ. ”

**********************
Jenyar writes:
"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light" (2 Cor. 11:14).

I'm sorry that I'm not perfect enough for you to accept my words at face value. Ever hear of the logical fallacy called ad hominem? It states that in order to discredit the words of a person, one simply discredits or maligns that person's character rather than take on the actual arguments that person makes.

Compare these two horsemen:
Rev. 6:1-2
I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Rev. 19:11-15
I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

If you study them, they look the same - they might even stir up the same feelings and the same hopes. But one of them is false. People also studied the Bagavad Ghita and the Vedas for centuries. I'm sure they were convinced of their truth as well.

I've never read the Bhagavad Gita or the Vedas, but I trust that there *is* some truth in them. Otherwise they wouldn't resonate within the hearts of Hindu believers the way they apparently do. It's foolish and unfair to say that only the Bible has truth in it. I'm not arguing that Hinduism is the true religion, but I'm not arrogant enough to say that they don't have *any* truth, either.

Once you have chosen to accept something that proposes to supercede the authority of original witnesses, you are already in territory where "confirmation" isn't valid anymore. You've lowered your standards and your guard, and with those lower standards even a lie might seem relatively true. All you are telling me is to ignore the Bible and believe the Mormons. How am I supposed to accept that?

Supercede the Apostles and prophets of the Bible? Go to your dictionary and look up the words "straw man argument." Mormons accept the Bible as inspired, and it is one of our four scriptural works we accept as doctrinal and true (as far as it is translated correctly). I'm not telling you to "ignore the Bible"--for Mormonism doesn't ignore it, either. "Ignore the Bible and believe the Mormons" is a classic straw man fallacy, since one may believe both at the same time.

Besides, if you hold the Melchizedek or Aaronic priesthood (which I assume you do), how can you not be an authority on it? What authority do you have then?

Let me rephrase the statement: I am not an expert on the Great Apostasy. This doesn't mean I don't hold the Priesthood. It simply means that my knowledge about the Apostasy isn't adequate for me to make authoritative statements about it, beyond the general statement that I believe it happened (and is still happening).

Marlin writes,
It all boils down to: Do you have a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true, or not? If the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith must have been a true prophet, and if so, the revelations he received were truly from God. If this is so, then the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true also.

So the question is, Is the Book of Mormon true?

And the answer may be found in Moroni 10:3-5 of the BoM:

I challenge anyone reading this to heed the above quote (called "Moroni's Promise") and read, study and pray about the Book of Mormon. Moroni's Promise works! ”

********************

Jenyar writes:
So Mormons added to the doctrine of the Bible, and build into it an "assurance" that it's true. With that "assurance", you added to the Book of Mormon as well. And I'm sure it all keeps on affirming itself.

We believe that anyone may receive revelation from God for his/her personal gain. So yes, the Book of Mormon is affirmed by God to those who seek to know of its truthfulness. Since when was "adding to the scriptures" (if sanctioned by God) something bad?

Before Jesus ascended into heaven, He said these words:
Acts 1:7-9 "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
And Paul writes to Timothy:
"And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others." (2 Tim. 2:2)
Jesus said the Spirit will testify about Him, just like the disciples around Him (John 15:26-27). But you have relativized these original witnesses almost out of existence, robbing them of all authority in the name of a new revelation, as if to divert the purpose of the Spirit.

Yes, the Spirit testifies about Jesus, as do the LDS scriptures. The Book of Mormon was written to convince people that Jesus is the Christ (see front page of the BoM). Jesus Christ and the Atonement are central to "Mormon" doctrine, to which all other beliefs and doctrines are appendages.

No, we have not "relativised these original witnesses almost out of existence." We accept the Bible as authoritative and true (although not infallible). We believe in the words of the Bible, but we also believe that God has more to say than just that which is in the Bible. He is, after all, the Living God, not the Dead God who cannot speak through prophets anymore.

You say Moroni is an angel? If you have to refer to Mormon links and angels to explain your gospel, it seems your faith is not in your hands anymore. Someone's running it for you.

You say Jesus is the Christ, the only Begotten Son of God? If you have to refer to Christian scripture and apostles to explain your gospel, it seems your faith is not in your hands anymore. Someone's running it for you.

(See how the tables may be turned, and the statements just as silly? I rely on the Scriptures and the words of the Prophets for my doctrine. However, LDS web sites are helpful in clearing up fallacies and misconceptions, so I use them liberally.)

Galatians 1:6-9
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel — which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

I totally agree with this scripture. If any man teaches anything at odds with the original, true gospel (Mormonism) as taught by Paul and the Apostles, let him be accursed. This scripture is completely true.

[Marlin]

water, here are some words from a past General Conference by an Apostle (Boyd K. Packer) about gaining a testimony:

My experience has been that a testimony does not burst upon us suddenly. Rather it grows, as Alma said, from a seed of faith. "It will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow" (Alma 32:30). If you nourish it, it will grow; and if you do not nourish it, it will wither (see Alma 32:37–41).

Do not be disappointed if you have read and reread and yet have not received a powerful witness. You may be somewhat like the disciples spoken of in the Book of Mormon who were filled with the power of God in great glory "and they knew it not" (3 Nephi 9:20).

Do the best you can. Think of this verse: "See that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order" (Mosiah 4:27).

http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/d...-520-2,00.html

[WildBlueYonder]

Jenyar, sound and fury, signifying nothing. My testimony of the truth stands, whatever you may say about it to the contrary.

how can a lie stand? are we talking "1984" doublespeak? The BoM is a fictionalized religious docu-drama, a wishful romanticized version of the so-called "ancient history" of the Americas. wait a few years & the BoM setting will go from continent-wide (original understanding) to LGT (current view of BoM setting in 'narrow-neck' southern Mexico) to allegorical (to a view as prophetic or parabolic witting or somesuch). there has never been anything, anything! found in the dirt (archeology, anthropology), that even shows or proves one thread or shred of BoM evidence. Hoaxes & mormon-only sources aside, of course. And the longer they dig, the more weak BoM becomes, till it ends up, being a secondary relic, put in its place by history, archeology, linguistics, genetics, paleobotany, you name it. There will never be any proof, being that the BoM is a novel, you have no hope of proving it true, any more so than Trekkies will ever discover the "Blue Bible". And even the LDS church may relegate the BoM to secondary status, being that many of the BoM tenets were reversed by Joe Smith & co. I dare you to find in the BoM where polygamy is encouraged or where many gods or mans progression to godhood is confirmed, or Adam-god, or spirit children, or baptism of the dead or what about the 3-fold heaven or Kolob? the BoM has no relevance even to mormons, except that they feel they must defend it (& must because of the consequences to J. Smith's prophet-status)

water, keep trying. The witness comes after the trial of faith. Faith precedes the miracle.

why try to believe a novel? its a book, a novel, not based on anything but 1820's ideas of who left all these relics, mounts & how to explain the origin of the Native Peoples all around. I dare say, that even Marlin believes little from the BoM, taking his marching orders from more recent revelations

[WildBlueYonder]

Why should I keep trying?
Why?

why indeed? the BoM & the BoA have been found wanting,

"Meme, meme, tekel, parsin"

from Daniel 5:25

before you go into a system that has many core beliefs that are bogus, find out what they are trying to hide, my guess is that Joe Smith copied or wrote a pseudo-biblical book, found that people might believe it, and then ran with it, for all it was worth. Read "no man knows my history" by Fawn Brodie, there are many insights there.

Read the Bible, it is the only source book you need to understand salvation

[water]

Marlin,

Why should I keep trying?
Why?

Because your eternal salvation hangs in the balance, that's why.

Then you have to prove to me why I should want eternal salvation.
It is not evident by itself that a person wants it.

[Marlin]

how can a lie stand? are we talking "1984" doublespeak?

Yes, that's it, you've found us out! We're nothing but a George Orwell cult! I bow to your "superior" reasoning.

The BoM is a fictionalized religious docu-drama, a wishful romanticized version of the so-called "ancient history" of the Americas. wait a few years & the BoM setting will go from continent-wide (original understanding) to LGT (current view of BoM setting in 'narrow-neck' southern Mexico) to allegorical (to a view as prophetic or parabolic witting or somesuch). there has never been anything, anything! found in the dirt (archeology, anthropology), that even shows or proves one thread or shred of BoM evidence. Hoaxes & mormon-only sources aside, of course

If you reject the evidence (from "Mormon-only sources"), then there is no evidence (to you).

And the longer they dig, the more weak BoM becomes, till it ends up, being a secondary relic, put in its place by history, archeology, linguistics, genetics, paleobotany, you name it. There will never be any proof, being that the BoM is a novel, you have no hope of proving it true, any more so than Trekkies will ever discover the "Blue Bible".

I am insulted that you would talk about my religion as if it were just some "Star Trek convention" gone amiss. You, sir, are very offensive.

And even the LDS church may relegate the BoM to secondary status, being that many of the BoM tenets were reversed by Joe Smith & co. I dare you to find in the BoM where polygamy is encouraged or where many gods or mans progression to godhood is confirmed, or Adam-god, or spirit children, or baptism of the dead or what about the 3-fold heaven or Kolob? the BoM has no relevance even to mormons, except that they feel they must defend it (& must because of the consequences to J. Smith's prophet-status)
why try to believe a novel? its a book, a novel, not based on anything but 1820's ideas of who left all these relics, mounts & how to explain the origin of the Native Peoples all around.

Polygamy is sanctioned in the Book of Mormon, provided that God commands it. Jacob 2:30 states plainly that "For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me [through polygamy], I will command my people;"

Man's progression to godhood in the Book of Mormon:
2 Nephi 2:25 Men are that they might have joy
3 Nephi 9:17 To them have I given to become the sons of God
3 Nephi 27:27 What manner of men ought ye to be? Even as I am
3 Nephi 28:10 Your joy shall be full...shall be even as I am

Adam-God theory: It's not in the Book of Mormon because it is FALSE doctrine.

I can't find a reference for spirit children in the Book of Mormon right now, other than those verses that speak of Man as a spirit child of God.

Baptism for the Dead is found in the Bible (1 Cor. 15:29), so it's hardly a false doctrine.

Threefold heaven: The Book of Mormon (to my knowledge) doesn't specifically mention the two lower heavens (Terrestrial or Telestial), but this is because we aren't to set our sites on those lower heavens. The scriptures are for the "Church of the Firstborn," or the Celestial Kingdom, and it is that kingdom that the BoM speaks of when it mentions heaven. That doesn't mean the other kingdoms were "added" or "evolved" by Joseph Smith's thinking. It simply means that the Celestial is what the Church is to be concerned with.

"Kolob," or the star near where God's throne is, is not mentioned by name in the Book of Mormon.

I dare say, that even Marlin believes little from the BoM, taking his marching orders from more recent revelations

I believe everything the Book of Mormon says, hands down, no reservations whatsoever. Please don't insult my intelligence, Randolfo.

[Marlin]

Marlin,

Then you have to prove to me why I should want eternal salvation.
It is not evident by itself that a person wants it.

The Book of Mormon speaks of salvation (God's love) as desirable above all other "fruits". Eternal life is salvation and redemption from the awful hell we would all otherwise face. You will have the weight of all your sins upon you, dragging you down and preventing you from enjoying your eternal life, if you don't repent and work out your salvation before the Lord.

Eternal life is the greatest of all the gifts of God to His children. Separation from God brings misery, profound and deep sorrow and pain. If you want to live without pain and suffering forever, you will have to repent of your sins and get saved. Without salvation, we would all be angels to the devil, in bondage to his whims and commands. With salvation, we are made free from sorrow and sin. It's a no-brainer that everyone should want salvation (if they truly understand what it is).

[water]

The Book of Mormon speaks of salvation (God's love) as desirable above all other "fruits".

I do not see it that way. I do not know what to do with salvation.

Eternal life is salvation and redemption from the awful hell we would all otherwise face. You will have the weight of all your sins upon you, dragging you down and preventing you from enjoying your eternal life, if you don't repent and work out your salvation before the Lord.

So I should wish something because of a threat?

Eternal life is the greatest of all the gifts of God to His children.

I do not believe so.

Separation from God brings misery, profound and deep sorrow and pain. If you want to live without pain and suffering forever, you will have to repent of your sins and get saved. Without salvation, we would all be angels to the devil, in bondage to his whims and commands. With salvation, we are made free from sorrow and sin.

A business transaction it is, then?

It's a no-brainer that everyone should want salvation (if they truly understand what it is).

Apparently, I do not truly understand what salvation is. So I cannot want it.

[Marlin]

water, just follow your User Name's visualization: think of how it feels on a scorched, hot day in the desert with sand blasting in your face, down your throat, and up your nose all day. Then imagine what a nice, cool glass of water will do for you after that desert storm.

Then imagine you don't have that glass of water, but must face an eternity of desert fierceness without any drink to quench your thirst. Think of how badly you will want that water after several days without it.

Now imagine what it would be like to be stranded forever in the desert storm with no chance of ever getting water again. Think of how your throat will dry up, how the sand will blast your face and your eyes, with no end in sight. You don't ever die because you're immortal.

Want that glass of water a bit more now that you've spent a long, long, long time in that desert? Well, the only one who can give it to you is Jesus Christ. By His sacrifice, He makes it possible for you to have not only water, but food, shelter, a whole desert oasis complete with shady trees and cool grass, bliss forever with no more thirst or hunger or sorrow.

That's salvation. Believe me, you want it. Or at least you will someday. Think about it.

[Cottontop3000]

Want that glass of water a bit more now that you've spent a long, long, long time in that desert? Well, the only one who can give it to you is Jesus Christ. By His sacrifice, He makes it possible for you to have not only water, but food, shelter, a whole desert oasis complete with shady trees and cool grass, bliss forever with no more thirst or hunger or sorrow.

That's salvation. Believe me, you want it. Or at least you will someday. Think about it.

Marlin,

You think about it for a change.

Who put me in the desert in the first place? The desert being anywhere on Earth, including the mythical Garden of Eden? If someone threw me to the wolves, in the desert, they're the last ones I would want to bow down before. Rather, I should like to knock 'em upside the head a few million times. Before you say that "God" gave us free will, too, and that it was our fault that we got thrown out of the "Garden," I ask you, "HOW COULD GOD HAVE CREATED HIS CHILDREN IN SUCH A WAY?" Knowing they would suffer so?

Also, what real sacrifice did Jesus make?

[SnakeLord]

It's somewhat amusing to see what fear of death looks like close up.

[Cottontop3000]

It's somewhat amusing to see what fear of death looks like close up.

"Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain." - Guess who?

[Marlin]

Marlin,

You think about it for a change.

Who put me in the desert in the first place? The desert being anywhere on Earth, including the mythical Garden of Eden? If someone threw me to the wolves, in the desert, they're the last ones I would want to bow down before. Rather, I should like to knock 'em upside the head a few million times. Before you say that "God" gave us free will, too, and that it was our fault that we got thrown out of the "Garden," I ask you, "HOW COULD GOD HAVE CREATED HIS CHILDREN IN SUCH A WAY?" Knowing they would suffer so?

Also, what real sacrifice did Jesus make?

Here is my belief: when we were just intelligences, God offered us a way to expand our existence by becoming spirit children to Him. Intelligences are not created by anyone--like matter, they are eternal and have always existed. In return for gaining spirit bodies, we agreed to the conditions that spirits are subject to. We were promised that if we kept our "first estate" (being spirit children living in heaven with our Father in Heaven), we would gain the right to acquire physical bodies in the "second estate" (earth life as mortals).

We agreed to the terms and conditions that we would be subject to in earth life, before we were born. We understood that there were risks and hardships to bear, pain and suffering, but we also understood that if we endured it well, we would be saved eventually in the kingdom of heaven with glory on our heads forever and ever.

The Lord wants us to go through the experience of mortality because this is the only way we could learn certain things. We have to experience the bitter so that we can appreciate and know the sweet. The Plan of Salvation is a cause-and-effect plan. The Lord doesn't want us to suffer unduely, yet He does want us to gain the experience so that we can become like Him.

Just because there is a desert doesn't mean the Lord wants us to succumb to it. It builds strength and character to endure the bad parts of life like pain, sorrow and suffering, and it is all only temporary. God in His mercy gave us the Atonement of Christ. This Atonement made it possible for us to make mistakes (sins) without being condemned for them forever. All we have to do is repent of our sins and He will remember them no more.

In summary: we agreed to go through mortal life with all of its sorrows, pains, joys, and loves, in order that we could become like our Father in Heaven. God didn't make us sinful--there are innate qualities in each of us that are not created by Him. He makes salvation possible for all who will obey His commandments. Thus suffering and hell become things which we can overcome and escape by repentance. There are certain laws which are eternal and cannot be changed, so when we break those laws, we incur penalties that must be paid for. Jesus paid for these penalties for us so that we can escape the effects of our sins.

All we have to do is repent and keep the commandments, and eventually we will have glory added upon our heads in the Kingdom of God forever and ever. God makes the best of all possible worlds, possible.

And you try bearing the weight of the sins of the entire world on *your* head someday, and then say that it is no sacrifice.

[Marlin]

It's somewhat amusing to see what fear of death looks like close up.

Fear of death? Not really. Fear of eternal hell? Definitely.