Mormon Teachings

[Jenyar]

According to Mormon teachings, we must repent, be baptized, and keep all the commandments to be saved in the Celestial Kingdom (the highest Kingdom of God).

From what I understood of Brutus' answers, this is called "exaltation" by Mormons, not salvation.

No one is automatically saved--not even in the lower kingdoms--without obedience to the commandments. I don't know where you got the idea that salvation is automatic, because it isn't.

* "There will be a general salvation for all in the sense in which that term is generally used, but salvation, meaning resurrection, is not exaltation" (Stephen L. Richards, Contributions of Joseph Smith, LDS tract, p.5).

* "The meanest sinner will find some place in the heavenly realm...In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, there is no Hell. All will find a measure of salvation" (Joseph Smith - Seeker After Truth, p.177-178, 1951).

* Even the unbeliever, the heathen, and the child who dies before reaching the years of discretion, all are redeemed by the Savior's self-sacrifice from the individual consequences of the fall (James Talmage. A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.58).

* "Those who live lives of wickedness may also be heirs of salvation, that is, they too shall be redeemed from death and from hell eventually" (Joseph F. Smith. Doctrines of Salvation, vol.2, p.133).

I'm sure I can find more sources, but this will at least give you an idea where I get it from. It's the Mormon doctrine of "salvation by grace alone".

[Marlin]

From what I understood of Brutus' answers, this is called "exaltation" by Mormons, not salvation.

Exaltation is the highest degree of salvation. It means deification.

* "There will be a general salvation for all in the sense in which that term is generally used, but salvation, meaning resurrection, is not exaltation" (Stephen L. Richards, Contributions of Joseph Smith, LDS tract, p.5).

Resurrection is the "universal salvation" you are thinking of. Even sons of perdition will be resurrected; however, they will not be saved in the sense of being delivered from hell. They will live in hell forever.

* "The meanest sinner will find some place in the heavenly realm...In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, there is no Hell. All will find a measure of salvation" (Joseph Smith - Seeker After Truth, p.177-178, 1951).

Tch, tch. You need to verify your source material before you post. Here is the quote you give, in context (bolding mine):

"All others, who are not classed as sons of perdition, will be "redeemed in the due time of the Lord"; that is, they will all be saved. The meanest sinner will find some place in the heavenly realm. But somewhere, sometime, he must pay the price for his sins. All this is in line with the love and justice of the Father for his children.

[...]

"The word hell, when used in these revelations, refers to the abode of the devil and his ugly brood. As used in the Bible it has the same connotation.

"In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, there is no hell. All will find a measure of salvation; all must pay for any infringement of the law; but the payment will be as the Lord may decide. There is graded salvation. This may be a more terrible punishment: to feel that because of sin a man is here, when by a correct life, he might be higher. The gospel of Jesus Christ has no hell in the old proverbial sense."

There is no place underneath the earth which the devil is in charge of, called "hell." The "old proverbial sense" of hell is what the author is calling "false."

* Even the unbeliever, the heathen, and the child who dies before reaching the years of discretion, all are redeemed by the Savior's self-sacrifice from the individual consequences of the fall (James Talmage. A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.58).

This is correct--those who never get the chance to accept or reject the gospel, but who accept it later on, will be redeemed. It is only the sons of perdition who are never redeemed.

* "Those who live lives of wickedness may also be heirs of salvation, that is, they too shall be redeemed from death and from hell eventually" (Joseph F. Smith. Doctrines of Salvation, vol.2, p.133).

Again, you need to check your source material before posting it out of context. Here is the quote in context:

"Those who live lives of wickedness may also be heirs of salvation, that is, they too shall be redeemed from death and from hell eventually. These, however, must suffer in hell the torments of the damned until they pay the price of their sinning, for the blood of Christ will not cleanse them. This vast host will find their place in the telestial kingdom where their glories differ as the stars of the heavens in magnitude.

"Sons of perdition are those who have rejected the light and the truth after having received the testimony of Jesus, and they are the only ones who are not redeemed from the dominion of the devil and his angels."

I'm sure I can find more sources, but this will at least give you an idea where I get it from. It's the Mormon doctrine of "salvation by grace alone".

Gosh, we Mormons just love it when others interpret our doctrine for us and tell us what we "really" believe. Next time get the context right, and quote from official sources (Bible, BoM, D&C, PoGP).

[Jenyar]

Resurrection is the "universal salvation" you are thinking of. Even sons of perdition will be resurrected; however, they will not be saved in the sense of being delivered from hell. They will live in hell forever.

Why call it salvation then? What are they "saved" from? It would have been fine if you just used "salvation" instead of "resurrection", but you equate this resurrection with Christ's atonement, don't you? In effect, you say this is all Christ "achieved".

We know from the Bible that a general resurrection would have happened anyway (at Judgement Day).

Luke 20:37-38
But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

Does Christ save people for hell, or from hell? Since judgment of all people would have taken place anyway, what difference do you think Christ's sacrifice made?

There is no place underneath the earth which the devil is in charge of, called "hell." The "old proverbial sense" of hell is what the author is calling "false."

You mean in the Greek sense. Hell was generally understood by the Hebrews and early Christians as the abode of the dead - a place of darkness and separation from God.

From that passage, it seems that the Mormon idea of hell is realizing "you could have done better".

[water]

"Sons of perdition are those who have rejected the light and the truth after having received the testimony of Jesus, and they are the only ones who are not redeemed from the dominion of the devil and his angels."

What qualifies as "having received the testimony of Jesus"?

When can it be said that a person has received the testimony of Jesus?

[Marlin]

Why call it salvation then? What are they "saved" from?

They are all saved (even if incompletely) from the power of the devil, because all beings with bodies have power over those who do not.

It would have been fine if you just used "salvation" instead of "resurrection", but you equate this resurrection with Christ's atonement, don't you? In effect, you say this is all Christ "achieved".

No, Christ paid the penalty for all mankind's sins, making salvation and exaltation possible for all who will repent and obey His commandments. This Atonement, or paying for sins, is not to be equated with simple resurrection, since even the sons of perdition are resurrected.

We know from the Bible that a general resurrection would have happened anyway (at Judgement Day).

Luke 20:37-38
But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

Does Christ save people for hell, or from hell? Since judgment of all people would have taken place anyway, what difference do you think Christ's sacrifice made?

Christ saves us from hell. His sacrifice makes it possible for us to receive forgiveness of sins. I'm not sure I follow your line of reasoning here, though.

[Marlin]

What qualifies as "having received the testimony of Jesus"?

When can it be said that a person has received the testimony of Jesus?

It means knowing with a fullness of knowledge, without a doubt, complete and total understanding and knowledge that Christ lives. A person receives a testimony of Jesus through personal revelation, brighter and brighter until the perfect day when he or she knows without any doubt whatsoever that Jesus lives. To commit the unpardonable sin, you have to have such great knowledge that it is impossible for most people to commit it while in mortality.

[Marlin]

From that passage, it seems that the Mormon idea of hell is realizing "you could have done better".

Hell is having your breast filled with pain and anguish, knowing your guilt in full and not receiving relief from the effects of your sins. Knowing "you could have done better" is part of it, but there is also great pain and anguish associated with it.

[Jenyar]

They are all saved (even if incompletely) from the power of the devil, because all beings with bodies have power over those who do not.

What's the "least" salvation - the most basic - after which salvation by works comes into effect?

No, Christ paid the penalty for all mankind's sins, making salvation and exaltation possible for all who will repent and obey His commandments. This Atonement, or paying for sins, is not to be equated with simple resurrection, since even the sons of perdition are resurrected.

Which resurrection did Jesus attain for sinners?

Christ saves us from hell. His sacrifice makes it possible for us to receive forgiveness of sins. I'm not sure I follow your line of reasoning here, though.

Yes, Christ saves us from hell. What I'm trying to find out is where Joseph Smith comes in. If Christ is all we need to save us from hell, what was wrong with Christianity apart from those who rejected Christ's atonement?

[Marlin]

What's the "least" salvation - the most basic - after which salvation by works comes into effect?

The lowest level of salvation is the "Telestial Kingdom," or the glory of the stars (as opposed to the "Terrestrial Kingdom" (glory of the moon) and "Celestial Kingdom" (glory of the sun)). Salvation by works is impossible--grace alone saves us, after all we can do.

Which resurrection did Jesus attain for sinners?

All of the Kingdoms of God are filled with former sinners, since all of us sin and fall short of the glory of God. Anyone (from the greatest to the least) may attain exaltation if he or she is willing to obey the commandments and be baptized.

Yes, Christ saves us from hell. What I'm trying to find out is where Joseph Smith comes in. If Christ is all we need to save us from hell, what was wrong with Christianity apart from those who rejected Christ's atonement?

LDS Christianity has the necessary Priesthood authority needed to act in God's name on Earth. It also teaches the truth about the family of God--that we are all His literal children and have the potential to become gods ourselves if we will keep all the commandments, repenting when necessary.

Without the Priesthood, no one has the right to act in God's name.

[water]

Hell is having your breast filled with pain and anguish, knowing your guilt in full and not receiving relief from the effects of your sins. Knowing "you could have done better" is part of it, but there is also great pain and anguish associated with it.

Considering this:

It means knowing with a fullness of knowledge, without a doubt, complete and total understanding and knowledge that Christ lives. A person receives a testimony of Jesus through personal revelation, brighter and brighter until the perfect day when he or she knows without any doubt whatsoever that Jesus lives. To commit the unpardonable sin, you have to have such great knowledge that it is impossible for most people to commit it while in mortality.

I take that such people, who would commit the unpardonable sin, then really wouldn't care whether "Hell is having your breast filled with pain and anguish, knowing your guilt in full and not receiving relief from the effects of your sins." Hell would have no power over them.

Unless you're saying that while all their life, and afterwards until judgment, they had stonehard hearts, and rejected Jesus and God, God, as a punishment, then softens their hearts so much so that they realize how stonehard their hearts used to be.


But to have such stonehard hearts, it would have to be God who created them that way. So who is to blame?

[water]

Without the Priesthood, no one has the right to act in God's name.

Whom does God use to work for Him?
Only the Mormon priests?

Are other people, non-Mormon, elligible that God calls them to work for Him?

[Marlin]

I take that such people, who would commit the unpardonable sin, then really wouldn't care whether "Hell is having your breast filled with pain and anguish, knowing your guilt in full and not receiving relief from the effects of your sins." Hell would have no power over them.

Unless you're saying that while all their life, and afterwards until judgment, they had stonehard hearts, and rejected Jesus and God, God, as a punishment, then softens their hearts so much so that they realize how stonehard their hearts used to be.

But to have such stonehard hearts, it would have to be God who created them that way. So who is to blame?

God doesn't create our most basic qualities. We are "intelligences" which God organized into spirit matter and later, into physical bodies. Intelligences are uncreated and eternal in nature; God doesn't create them and therefore has nothing to do with their shortcomings and natures. Who is to blame? Those who won't repent, I guess.

[Marlin]

Whom does God use to work for Him?
Only the Mormon priests?

Are other people, non-Mormon, elligible that God calls them to work for Him?

I believe that God uses practically everyone to work for Him. Non-Mormons may not have the Priesthood, but they certainly can be "called" or feel the need to work for Him. However, the authority to speak for God is reserved for those who hold the Priesthood. All others are being presumptuous, if innocently so, by saying they are authoritative in spiritual matters.

[water]

I believe that God uses practically everyone to work for Him. Non-Mormons may not have the Priesthood, but they certainly can be "called" or feel the need to work for Him. However, the authority to speak for God is reserved for those who hold the Priesthood. All others are being presumptuous, if innocently so, by saying they are authoritative in spiritual matters.

In other words, you would never believe that a non-Mormon has spoken on God's command, and as God has decreed?

Whatever a non-Mormon says, you automatically discard and would never accept that it could be ordained by God?

[Marlin]

In other words, you would never believe that a non-Mormon has spoken on God's command, and as God has decreed?

Whatever a non-Mormon says, you automatically discard and would never accept that it could be ordained by God?

Oh, I believe that many non-Mormons have been and are inspired of God to speak truths. You don't have to be a Mormon to be inspired or to feel the Holy Spirit's promptings and respond to them. However, I wouldn't take it as authoritative if, for example, Billy Graham said he had a message that was against the leadership of the LDS Church (I know, bad example--Billy is wonderful) simply because only the Prophets may speak authoritatively and gain revelations for the Church as a whole.

God commands whom He pleases. Joseph Smith himself wasn't LDS until he was an adult, and he certainly was inspired!

[water]

God doesn't create our most basic qualities.

Where do they come from them?

We are "intelligences" which God organized into spirit matter and later, into physical bodies. Intelligences are uncreated and eternal in nature; God doesn't create them

You are saying that in this universe, which is created by God, there are things that are not created by this God?

and therefore has nothing to do with their shortcomings and natures. Who is to blame? Those who won't repent, I guess.

You are saying that God has full rule even over things that are not His creation?

[Jenyar]

The lowest level of salvation is the "Telestial Kingdom," or the glory of the stars (as opposed to the "Terrestrial Kingdom" (glory of the moon) and "Celestial Kingdom" (glory of the sun).

And none of these are "hell", or are they?

Salvation by works is impossible--grace alone saves us, after all we can do.

So there's nothing you can do to attain a "higher" salvation? Why are some "incompletely" saved?

All of the Kingdoms of God are filled with former sinners, since all of us sin and fall short of the glory of God. Anyone (from the greatest to the least) may attain exaltation if he or she is willing to obey the commandments and be baptized.

Are people able to keep the "celestial" laws for attaining exaltation (even though you say it's not attained, but received by grace).

LDS Christianity has the necessary Priesthood authority needed to act in God's name on Earth. It also teaches the truth about the family of God--that we are all His literal children and have the potential to become gods ourselves if we will keep all the commandments, repenting when necessary.

Christ is the way, the truth and the life. He has the full Melchizedek priesthood forever (Hebrews 7:24). He attains the resurrection to life, "Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him". Why is the Mormon church necessary?

Without the Priesthood, no one has the right to act in God's name.

The priesthood is of believers, not for "men who are weak" who try to substitute or add to what the "sinners" cannot do. Christ intercedes for us himself. He supplies all we need to know for salvation, having brought the final sacrifice. All we do is in imitation of Him - in his "name" - and therefore surrenders to His authority. Peter was addressing his whole congregation when he said this:

1 Peter 4:10-11
Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms. If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ.

God's gifts and words aren't dispensed by Mormon priests and prophets, but by God himself. Christ is our only mediator and our only testimony.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men — the testimony given in its proper time.

It doesn't get any "brighter" than that. If you believe this, there can be no doubt left.

[Marlin]

Where do they come from them?

It hasn't been revealed, only that they are eternal in nature.

You are saying that in this universe, which is created by God, there are things that are not created by this God?

Yes. Matter is eternal, as are intelligences, which are co-eternal with God.

You are saying that God has full rule even over things that are not His creation?

Yes, except that He respects the free agency of all His children and will not ever even try to take that away from anyone.

[water]

Oh, I believe that many non-Mormons have been and are inspired of God to speak truths. You don't have to be a Mormon to be inspired or to feel the Holy Spirit's promptings and respond to them. However, I wouldn't take it as authoritative if, for example, Billy Graham said he had a message that was against the leadership of the LDS Church (I know, bad example--Billy is wonderful) simply because only the Prophets may speak authoritatively and gain revelations for the Church as a whole.

God commands whom He pleases. Joseph Smith himself wasn't LDS until he was an adult, and he certainly was inspired!

Don't twist this.

Fact is that you (LDS) will not accept any other source of revelation but that of your prophets.

So what you are saying -- "Oh, I believe that many non-Mormons have been and are inspired of God to speak truths. You don't have to be a Mormon to be inspired or to feel the Holy Spirit's promptings and respond to them." -- is just hot air.

Unless by an LDS prophet, you will not believe it is from God.

[water]

Yes, except that He respects the free agency of all His children and will not ever even try to take that away from anyone.

If He did not create them, they are not His children.