THE REAL [GOD] = ALLAH ...... join here you all need to know

[surenderer]

You are just thinking the same way as 'we' do with the war on [some]drugs, cept you include alcohol (don't know if it's true Islam culture allows hashish?).....but when you say 'drugs', what do you MEAN? there are different varieties of drugs. alcohol is a drug too, though many who are prejudiced against 'drugs' dont seem to be aware of this.
What about hallucinogens surrenderer? i bet they to are part of the list of substances banned by your religion, Islam. This is not surprising, as all of patriarchal worldviews do not want people--especially 'ordinary' people haveing the freedom to explore DIRECT spiritual experience.
Why? because it want to bind them to what is imagined to be 'order', as transmitted through your holy Book, the Koran
thus you all 'submit' to authoritarianism. not many of you being bold anough to deny that indoctrination

Well I partly agree with you but the Muslim viewpoint(as I understand it) is that the Creator gave us the ability to understand things without these hallucingens....do people really become smarter when they smoke weed? or drink alchohol? dont they usually become more aggressive? are more crimes committed by people on or off drugs? Surely you arent telling me that the consumption of Drugs arent a major problem of todays societyI also disagree with you about Islam not wanting Muslims to have direct experience with the Creator because actually thats what Islam is all about(thats why we dont have a Pope) you just shouldnt do it high Islam however doesnt say that anyone that uses intoxitants is going to Hell but just that if you are to be a Muslim that you should refrain from it........peace to you

[duendy]

Well I partly agree with you but the Muslim viewpoint(as I understand it) is that the Creator gave us the ability to understand things without these hallucingens....

d)))well, from my researches, it is the patriarchs who have decided that is so, and spread this propaganda via 'holy' text.
whereas, in ACTUALITY, the use of hallucinogens were used by thier elites secretly, and have been used by peoples throughout our species' history

do people really become smarter when they smoke weed? or drink alchohol? dont they usually become more aggressive? are more crimes committed by people on or off drugs?

d)))yes there can be much vioelence on all levels to do with drugs. Alcohol can make pople very violent, eleasing pent up emotions ans son on. Marijuana too, if used by a violent mindset wont necessarily pacify under all circumstances. But we have to look at the CONTEXT all of this is happening in.
If you look into this 'War on Drugs' you will understand that it is precisley this war that encourages gangsterism and crime.
And when you look even closer you find out that people right at the top deSIRE this situation to continue indefinately! it is a very serious situation and exposes the corruption shot through all the hiearchachical levels of its structure for society

Surely you arent telling me that the consumption of Drugs arent a major problem of todays society

d)))Drug taking exists. that we know. for various reasons people want to take drugs. so we need to ask 'in wat way?' and 'why?'.
As much as our culture is anti-'durgs' it spends a real fortune pushing drugs it considers beneficial. for xample 'anti-depressants' and 'ritalin' for children it classes as un-fit for its schooling system, etc. so we need to loook at what is motivating them to be ferociously against some drugs and not others!
When we look at Iniegnous culture, as for example Native American culture we find that they did have hallucinogenic sacraments and yet no drug problems like we have. But we see tha when their traditions and land and MEANING was taken from them by the while colonilists that many turned to the same problems we are having, alcoholism, and serious drug abuse. this is a profound HINT/CLUE for our predicament. And research into this areas necessitates a generalist looking at how authoritarian power operates, and how much meaning has been taken out of OUR lives. FIRST we have to KNOW we are oppressed, before we can beging challenging it

I also disagree with you about Islam not wanting Muslims to have direct experience with the Creator because actually thats what Islam is all about(thats why we dont have a Pope) you just shouldnt do it high

d))'just shouldn't do it high'? what do you mean? that words are enough?

Islam however doesnt say that anyone that uses intoxitants is going to Hell but just that if you are to be a Muslim that you should refrain from it........peace to you

well, it really is the same thing. Exclusion. a socially transmitted sense of shame if you were to experiment spiritually with the aid of hallucinogens

[everneo]

well, it really is the same thing. Exclusion. a socially transmitted sense of shame if you were to experiment spiritually with the aid of hallucinogens

Your idea about spiritual experience not withstanding, what hallucinogens do is just screwing up your normal process of brain, inducing false senses till they are spent up and leave you in a mess at the end of the session. For short term ecstacy or just to escape from stable current reality with all its goods and bads, you may go for hallucinogens. With all the youth of a society end up as drug users, that society - whether matricarchal or patriarchal or whatever - cannot dream up any progress/stability. Its is as good as impotent and dead.

[surenderer]

Duendy,
I respect you and agree with most of your posts but yours here is kinda hard to understand but if you are saying that the War on Drugs is a shame(another topic all together) then I agree with you but the reason why it is fake is because the Goverment makes much money off of illegal drugs (Afghanistian comes 1st to mind followed by South America) I dont know much about the Native Americans and their drugs so I wont comment on them but I will ask you if you are saying that the Native Americans culture would have been worse had they not used drugs? Their is nothing wrong with taking a abstinace(sp?) stance on these issues that Islam does and its not a "higher up trying to keep his masses down" because Islam takes this same abstinance stance on dating, drugs and other potential dangerous issues

[duendy]

Your idea about spiritual experience not withstanding, what hallucinogens do is just screwing up your normal process of brain, inducing false senses till they are spent up and leave you in a mess at the end of the session.

d)))I take it you are speaking about your personal experience with them, or is that something you have read?
MY experience with them, and much i have read contradict utterly your seemingly wholly negative view about them.
And definre 'normal' and 'false senses'. are you saying that people consuming consuming etc et and feeling alienated from Nature, and drinking themselves to death, or on mudication and so on is the norm to aspire to?

For short term ecstacy or just to escape from stable current reality with all its goods and bads, you may go for hallucinogens.

d))))so what i s'long time ecstasy'? COULD one BE in ecstasy all the time? i dont think so. Yet we NEEd it, and it is forbidden. And why do you say 'escape'. do you not see THIS culture's behaviour as an escape from reality? i do. it is writ in their myth. they seek to escape Nature. period. the religionists seek escape to a spiritual realm, and the scinece people seek it in oblivion. in their belief that when your dead your dead. meaning there is no thought for the continuation of beneficial Nature for ALL species and for generations to come. That to me is escape, not the age old earth relgious way of partaking of hallucinogens to ecstasize WITh Nature and thus bond with it, and community on deeper levels than we are presently aLLOWED TO FOR FEAR OF IMPRISONMENT!

With all the youth of a society end up as drug users, that society - whether matricarchal or patriarchal or whatever - cannot dream up any progress/stability. Its is as good as impotent and dead.

what do yo call progess. the fascstic demand we all cow two to the ditates of the presnt religion, science? that to me is impotent and VERy dead. it denies people who WANT IT (you obviously not, and that is your freedom_) the freedom to explore spirituality the way they want to, and not be told like children what they can eat and drink

[Michael]

We can find out individuals or groups, cannot find a society as a whole generally. This holds good for any religion/ideology that promises wondrous things.

Are you saying that the ideology called “Islam” has no effect on society?

Would you say that the ideology called “Communism” has an effect on society?
Would you say that the ideology called “Democracy” has an effect on society?

[Michael]

You mean besides the ones that carried to World while Europe was crawling around in the Dark Ages

Could you re-write this a little more clearly, I have no idea what this sentence means? “carries ones”? One what?

I do not understand why you are so adamant about referring to Europe in this regards? I am not European, and if I were, it still doesn’t matter. Why not make a comparison with China or Japan? Or better yet, make a comparison with Tahiti or Hawaii? It’ll carry as much weight. But, as you insist in continuing with this “European” comparison, then I will ask you:

1) Why, surrender, was the Islamic ME so prosperous during the period that the Europeans call the “Dark Ages”? Did it have ANYTHING to do with Islam? If so what?

Because, get this, the Mediterranean has been a wealthy area for a few millennia before Islam was invented. But, I digress, if you insist in making this “European” comparison all of the time, then do me the favor and explain what exactly the comparison IS.

Incidentally, as I’ve said before, I propose that it was this “bottleneck” on trade which allowed the ME to get rich, prompted the crusades and ultimately motivated the Europeans to find ways around the ME. Once the Europeans had established new trade routes, bypassing the ME all together – well, the ME lost its wealth, power, and influence and the Europeans flourished.

2) That is not to say there are no comparisons to be made, I can think of a very good comparison to be made with Dark Age Europe and Islamic Middle East.

The period known as the Dark Ages in Europe is also the rise of a belief in some asinine Middle Eastern God and these ancient Europeans were foolish enough to allow themselves to be ruled by people purporting to do this Middle Eastern God's will (See: Holy Roman/German Empire). Decline in the belief of (and thus rule via) this Middle Eastern God is called the Renaissance.

Unfortunately for the people of the ME today, similar to their European counterparts, they believe in this very same God, and they are ruled by people just as the ancient Europeans were, and they are just as bad off as the ancient Europeans were.

So yes, I do see a comparison.

Belief in God = Bad Dark Ages
No belief in God = Good Renaissance

the reason why Islamic Nations are lagging behind Western Nations(financally) is because Sharia premits Muslims from charging Interest or usury......

Haaa!!!
1) KSA has TRILLIONS of dollars – so try again.
2) Sharia Law and it’s effects on Usury says absolutely NOTHING on why the ME continued with the Institution of Slavery (which unlike that Evil notion called Usury) was accepted in Islam.

I would categorize “Slavery” in with the Lagging behind the West.Wouldn't YOU?

But you may be correct, maybe Islamic restrictions on usury kept profits down, inadvertently keeping the “less Islamic restricted” institution of Slavery alive a well for well over a thousand years. Surrender, you may have unintentionally stumbled upon yet another fundamental flaw with Islam and the Qur’an.

** You’ll be surprised to learn that there are a number of Islamic Banks that follow, if not the spirit, at least the letter of the Sharia law. It’ll be funny to see if you are right and Islamic countries do well to skirt around the fundamentals of the Qur’an in favor of a Westernized approach to fiscal monetary policies. Just one more step in the long line that will be walked before Islam is finally accepted as a hindrance to society and removed by the very people that practice it (much like the Xians did in Europe)

3) There are MANY poor countries and societies in the world, there needn’t be an “Islamic” excuse. It could be that for many different reasons the ME will remain poor – Islamic or not Islamic. Maybe it’s a reflection on Arabic culture in general and has little to do with Islam if any at all?

but a Muslims reward is in the next life.....not this one ......

This has got to be the most insidious joke ever played on someone. Yeah, give me your time devotion and money now and I’ll pay you back after we’re dead.

Really - just crazy!

Now what was it that you believed in again? I noticed you still didnt answer me

I believe a number of things. Like asking why, when, where, who, how come, and trying to take as little on “faith” as I possibly can. I do not believe in universal ethics or morals although I think, as all people share many similarities, we naturally share ethics and morals. I think the manner in which many citizens of KSA treat their women is utterly revolting. The idea of a morality police is Orwellian and disturbing and the fact that morality police are supported by a society and that they’d rather lock little girls in a burning school then let them be seen without proper attire is, well, beyond words. The types of brainwashing it took for NK Dear Leader to form his cult of personality is equally as bizarre and despicable. However, I do not think it is my right to force or trick or coerce any of these societies to abide by my codes or ethics and rules of behavior. So, what do I believe? I believe you should figure it out for yourself and that the best way to do that is to question, debate, challenge, care for one another and when you can and if for the right reasons - change. So of course – I’m Atheist

[everneo]

Are you saying that the ideology called “Islam” has no effect on society?

When you asked about wonderous nirvana of an Islamic society I said there were individuals & groups who got what isalm promised. Desired effects on a society had never been complete & what was intended by any religion/ideology.

Would you say that the ideology called “Communism” has an effect on society?

Did any society achieve what nirvana Marx predicted? A stateless society??

Would you say that the ideology called “Democracy” has an effect on society?

Democracy is great but it is far from the nirvana it really supposed to mean.

[path]

So Path is this a problem with Islam or a problem with the way it's interpeted? I agree that Islam can be used by those who want to commit terror but that is nothing new to because all relgions have had the same problem......ever seen a KKK member without a Bible in his hand? and before you guys say "yea thats the problem with all religon" I can point out plenty of atheist murderes also. Islam is the answer if followed correctly(IMO) but sadly enough the few bad apples seem to spoil it for the rest......at least if thats where you guys like to look

Which church do KKK members belong to? Who is thier spiritual leader? which of jesus' teachings do they use to justify thier bigotry? Which of jesus' military campaigns do they use as an example of how to wage war? An atheist has no claim of divine inspiration for violence religion does. If there were only a few bad apples who follow islam then I doubt there would be an issue. The problem with islam is that all those bad apples can and do point out the justification for thier actions in islams sacred texts and in examples from the life of mo. A christian has to resort to the old testament (which I believe jesus said was no longer valid)and can in no way use jesus life as an example to justify violence.

[surenderer]

]Which church do KKK members belong to? Who is thier spiritual leader?

The National Leader for the KKK is an ordained Baptist Minister(Thomas Robb).....ask him.....but I guess they have nothing to do with Christianity huh? they probably dont even burn Crosses either

Do your own homework:

http://www.kkk.bz/

Which of jesus' military campaigns do they use as an example of how to wage war?

They dont follow Jesus's teachings but they claim that they do(which was my point)

An atheist has no claim of divine inspiration for violence religion does.

Yet you kill also where is your great contribution to society? Get off your moral highhorse you sound simple....but since you say that lets take Marxists as an example since they are atheists....Of all religions, secular and otherwise, that of Marxism has been by far the bloodiest – bloodier than the Catholic Inquisition, the various Catholic crusades, and the Thirty Years War between Catholics and Protestants. In practice, Marxism has meant bloody terrorism, deadly purges, lethal prison camps and murderous forced labor, fatal deportations, man-made famines, extrajudicial executions and fraudulent show trials, outright mass murder and genocide.
In total, Marxist regimes murdered nearly 110 million people from 1917 to 1987. For perspective on this incredible toll, note that all domestic and foreign wars during the 20th century killed around 35 million. That is, when Marxists control states, Marxism is more deadly then all the wars of the 20th century, including World Wars I and II, and the Korean and Vietnam Wars.

If there were only a few bad apples who follow islam then I doubt there would be an issue.

So now you are claiming that most Muslims are bad apples? thought you didnt think that? Guess it's hard keeping your lies straight huh?

The problem with islam is that all those bad apples can and do point out the justification for thier actions in islams sacred texts

Same as I was saying for the KKK...... and from Bush Jr.....and Osama....anyone who wants to try to justify what they are trying to do....I dont deny this.......but if you want KKK texts from the Bible? here are a few for you:

Slaves:

"And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour." (Leviticus 25:46)



Violence:
(Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
" Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."


Rape:

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)



etc etc etc.........

A christian has to resort to the old testament (which I believe jesus said was no longer valid)and can in no way use jesus life as an example to justify violence.

[/QUOTE]



Of course after what I just posted a Christian would say that(I could also show you things from the New Testement written by Paul) but Jesus(pbuh) didnt say that...what he said was:


For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.(matthew 5:18)


heaven and earth pass yet Path?



and about anyone who says otherwise:


Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven(matthew 5:19)



And stop trying to play the Jesus(pbuh) card against Muslims....again you sound simple.....Jesus(pbuh) is mentioned in the Koran more than Muhamaad(pbuh) and Muslims love him as much

[Michael]

When you asked about wonderous nirvana of an Islamic society I said there were individuals & groups who got what isalm promised. Desired effects on a society had never been complete & what was intended by any religion/ideology.

”groups who got what Islam promised” What exactly was/is that?

Did any society achieve what nirvana Marx predicted? A stateless society??

No. But that isn’t what I asked. I asked if it had an effect on society (presumably a noteworthy effect). Which it did. And I would argue a negative effect.

I say negative relative to what I would think of as positive. Communist societies appear to have less guaranteed freedoms (freedom to worship how one would see fit, freedom to criticize those in charge, freedom to own land, free access to information). The loss of those freedoms (not necessarily rights) I would argue forms a negative society.

With that said, I do not think you will find in the Communist-Manifesto anything at all about how a society that practices it’s ideology will end with a oppressive, autocratic, totalitarian society. However, we can see that in practice that has always been the case.

And that's the KEY: in practice

I would say although communism was of good intention it is a failure.

Democracy is great but it is far from the nirvana it really supposed to mean.

This is true, and perhaps it will never be possible to reach any form of a societal nirvana? Or, perhaps we’ll have to wait until we have no religions or perhaps everyone will have to be Buddhist or until machines replace us or whatever . . . . .

BUT, I would say that Democracy and specifically Secular Democracy, relative to the other forms of societal constructs, is standing the test of time and amazingly so. I mean, it was somewhat practiced by Greek city states almost 3000 years ago and is practiced successfully in places with as much diversity as the USA and Japan. The US constitution is the oldest still in use in the world – that does count for something.

The better question is how can we tell if something is working or works well?

I would argue that by the results we should merit it or fail it:

- Secular Representative government did allow for Slavery, but in short order the society rid itself the institution.

- Secular Representative government prevented women from voting, but in short order the society changed and granted women the right to vote.

- Secular Representative government used to allow children to work, but in short order the society changed and now there are age limits and rules to protect children.

- Also, I personally think that if you stop and look at what types of Arts and Sports were invented by a particular society, that that also is also a reflection on the wellbeing of a society and hence a measure of it’s governments potential.

- Finally, of those peoples that do practice a particular societal ideology. If they stop its practice and try something else - WHY?

(THAT says something - quiting a particular ideology AFTER using it says something about it. Wouldn't you agree?)

Because this is “in practice” then I would say that those things say something about it.


** * ** * ** * ** * ** * ** * ** * ** * ** * ** * ** * ** * **

Which brings me to the Islamic Ideology.

What has Islam done for the people whom have practiced it?

- Why, after millennia, did Islamic countries still practice Slavery? Why did they stop?

- Why, after millennia, do Islamic countries still prevent freedom of expression?

- Why, after 600+ years of Islam, did Spaniards not only stop practicing it but made it illegal?

(not to mention India, Russia and Greece)

What sports have been invented by Islamic countries?

What freedoms do Islamic countries guarantee?

What arts have been invented or improved upon by Islamic countries?

When you add them all up I think you will find that in 1500 years Islam has done less than when Secular Democracy has done in 200. I would say as a societal institution Islam is a failure.

** * ** * ** * ** * ** * ** * ** * ** * ** * ** * ** * ** * **
Which leaves personal, and that will always be individual.

So, can you tell me,

I) What are the greatest personal insights you have found with Islam?

II) Do you think that these "Islamic" insights are in any way different to those achieved by Buddhist or Hindus or Jews or Christians?

III) Do you suppose that they take the depth Taoism?

IV) Do you suppose they give something to society as intellectually profound as Greek Philosophy?

I did take some time to type this up this morning, a decent reply would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Michael

[Michael]

[QUOTE=surenderer]

The National Leader for the KKK is an ordained Baptist Minister(Thomas Robb).....ask him.....but I guess they have nothing to do with Christianity huh? they probably dont even burn Crosses either

Of all religions, secular and otherwise, that of Marxism has been by far the bloodiest

Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB, matthew 5:18, matthew 5:19

I agree that:
1) the KKKs ideology is revolting,
2) Marxism is a failure,
3) some parts of the old Testament are revolting.

Islam is the answer if followed correctly(IMO) but sadly enough the few bad apples seem to spoil it for the rest

(I) Can you explain:
(1) Islam is what answer?
(2) What is the question?
(3) Could you provide a short outline as to what Islam has to offer and how it is supposed to be used by society to help the members of (and hence society itself) to achieve their potential? Also, could you provide a detailed link aswell? Thanks.

(II) Not one Society in history has practiced Communism as outlined by Karl Marx. As a manifesto I belief it is somewhat fair for the society in general – BUT, in practice it does not work. So my question is, if we agree communism does not work, WHO IS TO BLAME - The People or The Idiology?

Are we to blame the people whom have given communism a go and found it sucks?

OR,

is it the Ideology of Communism that is to blame?

If it is communism itself that is the problem, should we continue to force people to be communists – knowing that it has never worked, in the hopes that is might work? Or should we abandon it and try something else?

(III) Has ANY society in the last 1500 years followed Islam “correctly”? Which one and when?

[surenderer]

Could you provide a short outline as to what Islam has to offer and how it is supposed to be used by society to help the members of (and hence society itself) to achieve their potential? Also, could you provide a detailed link aswell? Thanks.


Economics:

http://www.islamonline.net/english/i.../topic11.shtml




Society:

http://www.islamonline.net/english/i.../topic07.shtml



Politics:

http://www.islamonline.net/english/i.../topic08.shtml



Governance:


http://www.islamonline.net/English/i...rticle02.shtml



A good site for info

[battig1370]

'SUPREMACY OF GOD'. > According to the gospels, JESUS said, "ALL AUTHORITY has been given unto ME in heaven and on earth" - (Matthew 28:18) --- "Heaven and earth will pass away, but MY WORDS will by no means pass away." - (Matt.24:35) --- "I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE. No one comes to the FATHER except through ME. - ( John14:6 )

Peae be with you, Paul

[Michael]

surenderer, thanks for the sites, I will definitely give them a thorough read.

But, I am still curious as to my question:

- Has ANY society in the last 1500 years followed Islam “correctly”?

- Which one and when?

Also, if we agree that communism works theoretically but in practice does not work; Who is to blame - The People or The Ideology?

[WildBlueYonder]

peace on those who follow the right way to (ALLAH)

what does that mean, 'war' on those that don't follow islam?

the only great and unique god for the whole world and planets and all mankind and the only god who made everything ..

a matter of opinion

my name is muhammad and i live in egypt im 28 years old ... studied engineering and i got a high score on IQ tests ... i work on computer field

welcome, but as a comp geek, you should be familiar with the story of IBM & MicroSoft; IBM hired Bill Gates to do OS for their new PC's, but they forgot to have MS sign a non-compete, 'trade secrets' clause, so BG, being a pirate at heart, came out with DOS several months later, the rest is corporate history.

well islam is like that, Christianity comes to the world, but satan, he just can't stand for Jesus to win or to have a better product, so like the pirate that he is, he makes a counterfeit, so islam is born, & the rest is world history; violence, raids, rape, war, thievery. why did islam feel the need to conquer their corner of the world? why, because they are pirates, ask early US & the Barbary Coast. what is dar-islam & dar-al-harb
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...aralislam.html

what is the example from the islamic prophet? was mohammad (your namesake), a man of peace? or of war, battles, raids, genocide, slavery, antisemitism, lies? if he practiced those forms of human politics, does he not have more in common with satan, the enemy of man, than with a true prophet, that leads people to God by words alone? read Isaiah or Daniel in the Bible

why does 'islam' feel more like a 'virus, than a 'cure'?

i entered this forum to give you some guide lines you may follow

so, what makes you think we need your help? or that we need to follow 'islam' in the first place, a false religion?

[Michael]

Out of curiousity, can you tell me what Islam is to you?

Islam Online

Islamic Economics
As a complete way of life, Islam has provided guidelines and rules for ever sphere of society.

A society that implements Islamic laws and promotes Islamic manners will find that it infuses all the systems – social, economic, and so forth – that it deals with. Islam teaches that Allah has created provision for every person who He has brought to life. Therefore, the competition for natural resources that is presumed to exist among the nations of the world is an illusion. While the earth has sufficient bounty to satisfy the needs of mankind, the challenge for humans lies in discovering, extracting, processing, and distributing these resources to those who need them.

This web-page doesn’t appear to address economic issues at all. Other than God made enough for everyone so go out and get it? Is this one of the fundamental Islamic principals that needed a new prophet from God to come and share with man? Because I think you’ll find it offers little, if any (and maybe faultily), insight into how best to administer an economy.

A Social Vision

I’ve read all of the webpage’s that were posted and I’m just going to comment on this one page because this is the problem with them all.

They don’t’ say anything insightful.

Anyway,

The primary goal of Islam is the establishment of a society based on peace, security, and justice, so that humanity can fulfill the purpose for which they were created: to worship God (Allah) in al that they do. In order to fulfill this noble goal, and thereby ensure the success of society, there are a number of fundamental principles.

Islam aims to awaken the heart of the believer and to free him or her from the worship of base desires and created things, leaving only the worship of the Creator. A believer who experiences this freedom purifies himself of all subservience to created beings, i.e., everything other than Allah. He learns that death, affliction, poverty, and debasement all occur with the permission of Allah.

Islam is the only system that can produce such absolute freedom. The true believer is left independent of anything save Allah; he calls upon Allah to solve his problems, and even more so, he is content with his lot at all times.

Firstly, to make a generalized and broad statement such as “Islam is the only system that can produce such absolute freedom” with little if any reference as to what “absolute freedom” is, holds as little if any meaning.

Secondly, the statement as it has been made is false. You can find many Buddhists that have reached a state of Nirvana. So it is possible to produce this absolute freedom without Islam.

Let me post the entire paragraph:

Islam came to finalize the equality of all humans. It came to a people who worshipped many gods, during a time when the blood of the nobility was considered far superior to that of the common man, to a mindset that based society on all-pervasive social strata that could never be breached. Under this modus operandi, the poor would always be poor and subservient to the rich until their deaths. Contemporaneously, some were debating the true nature of women: did they have souls, and if so, were they pure evil?

Thirdly, it’s fine to talk the talk but can you walk the walk. Sort of a put-up or shut-up thing.

Has equality between men and women ever been practiced in ANY Islamic countries? (in case you were thinking of it, no, women do not have equal rights with men in all of Indonesia. As a matter of fact, the more conservative Islamic the region is, often equates to the less equal it becomes.)


Although flowery and of little substance, I do understand the essence of what the writer of the webpages is trying to say. However, I’ll ask again: in 1500 years has it ever worked?

Has there even ever been an Islamic country?

- I mean come on, Slavery wasn’t even banned.
- Women didn’t start obtaining equality until the Islamic societies came under the influence of the Europeans.
- And for the most part these societies stayed poor, even at the height of Islam (Yes, that time when Europe was a backwater, and China majestic) most Muslims were still as poor as dirt – and many still are.

Similar to Communism, some of it looks good on paper but it just does not work.

One can successfully argue that there has never truly existed a “Communist State”.
So what?
Maybe that’s because the whole concept doesn’t work in practice and will never work in practice. And as nice as it would be, it’s time to try something else (which is what pretty much all communist countries have gone ahead and done).

So, unless you can point to an utopian Islamic society somewhere that we’ve missed - I’d say, isn’t 1500 years long enough of an experiment with this “Islamic” social system? As nice as it may be, it really just does not appear to work in practice.

[WildBlueYonder]

but your questions are all answered in one thing
just read what i typed

you wrote too much, you should put it on a website & provide a link, your wasting bandwith here by writting a book & then posting it

and you read QURAAN or even parts from it and you will be sure it cant be written by humans or even ghosts

thats the problem, its way too human, why would god change his mind? why would he give muhhammid obvious lies as suras, such as changing the direction of the qibla, hahaha, god was just kidding, what a joker, hahaha

it has incredible things and not normal words like human words

like?

and many scientific incredibles

like? 160 joints? hahaha

you must do effort to find way to your god and read on the islam way if you want to make sure and pass the test

test? like most boring story? most long-winded?

if you like to be lazy and close your eyes and mind and heart then dont expect a reward

one little very little thing i tell you

first of all MUHAMMAD the prophet of ALLAH was (illiterate)

doesnt know how to read or write

if he was illiterate, that means that while he was confirming Christianity, his followers wrote the quran in an opposite direction & invented islam. how would Muhhamid know the diff? those jokers, hahahaha

guess how he comes with that great book ?

would it be that satan told him what to recite? Joseph Smith had the same helper, same story, new prophet, new religion

second
read about incridibles and miracles in quraan

like? post those links please

[everneo]

”groups who got what Islam promised” What exactly was/is that?

As for the groups, i take small groups otherwise it would be a society!. To the top of my mind comes the group of people who followed Imam Hussein till their gruesome end at the hand of supposedly fellow muslims. There were also small bands of genuine sufi groups in the span of Islamic history. You can also find small groups of dedicated people among sunnis/shias following islamic ideals not given to literalistic interpretations.

No. But that isn’t what I asked. I asked if it had an effect on society (presumably a noteworthy effect). Which it did. And I would argue a negative effect.

I say negative relative to what I would think of as positive. Communist societies appear to have less guaranteed freedoms (freedom to worship how one would see fit, freedom to criticize those in charge, freedom to own land, free access to information). The loss of those freedoms (not necessarily rights) I would argue forms a negative society.

With that said, I do not think you will find in the Communist-Manifesto anything at all about how a society that practices it’s ideology will end with a oppressive, autocratic, totalitarian society. However, we can see that in practice that has always been the case.

And that's the KEY: in practice

I would say although communism was of good intention it is a failure.

So in practice, no religion/ideology could transform the entire society to its idealistic end. Islam is no exception.

- Also, I personally think that if you stop and look at what types of Arts and Sports were invented by a particular society, that that also is also a reflection on the wellbeing of a society and hence a measure of it’s governments potential.

Arts and sports, IMO, need continuous patronizing otherwise would be replaced by new ones subsequently and soon be forgotten/unknown in future. A small group of influential patrons (not the society as whole) would suffice for the survival of a specific Art/Sports. How the belly dance survived in strict islamic societies over the centuries?!

- Finally, of those peoples that do practice a particular societal ideology. If they stop its practice and try something else - WHY?

(THAT says something - quiting a particular ideology AFTER using it says something about it. Wouldn't you agree?)

May be out of necessity than disgust.

Which brings me to the Islamic Ideology.

What has Islam done for the people whom have practiced it?

The question could be generic and could be asked about any religion.

- Why, after millennia, did Islamic countries still practice Slavery? Why did they stop?

When someone feels that he is better and superior than the other person, he won't feel bad about the other guy doing the dirty job. This is a fundamental human psychology. If a religion/ideology is successful in inducing the humilty and equality in to the hearts of individuals, slavery would become a shameful act.

- Why, after millennia, do Islamic countries still prevent freedom of expression?

For fear of open rebellion.

- Why, after 600+ years of Islam, did Spaniards not only stop practicing it but made it illegal?

(not to mention India, Russia and Greece)

Ironically, there was no 100% conversion (whether forcible/voluntary).

What sports have been invented by Islamic countries?


What freedoms do Islamic countries guarantee?

What arts have been invented or improved upon by Islamic countries?

When you add them all up I think you will find that in 1500 years Islam has done less than when Secular Democracy has done in 200. I would say as a societal institution Islam is a failure.

You know, for 1500 years that existed is not an indication of its failure then.

Which leaves personal, and that will always be individual.

So, can you tell me,

I) What are the greatest personal insights you have found with Islam?

You can ask a muslim to get a better answer.

II) Do you think that these "Islamic" insights are in any way different to those achieved by Buddhist or Hindus or Jews or Christians?

Not necessarily different.

III) Do you suppose that they take the depth Taoism?

I have a little idea about Taoism. How deep it is?

IV) Do you suppose they give something to society as intellectually profound as Greek Philosophy?

I often find atheists blasting Plato.

Pardon me if i was indecent anywhere in this post.

[battig1370]

Hello muhammad:

Accorrding to muslims is Jesus a false prophet?

Peace be with you, Paul