Thread: THE REAL [GOD] = ALLAH ...... join here you all need to know

  1. #361
    No it isn't. Voodoo is the best.

  2. #362
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GeoffP
    Slavery is not ok, unless it is prisoner of war and the Islamic way of dealing with this is completely just
    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondHearts
    Does the West practice this form of slavery? I was saying this is the only slavery practiced in Islam and has been in Islamic history.
    DiamondDork attributes this quote to me. I am not sure why. Perhaps the great legalist assumes that the only objection to islam can come from myself? The really odd thing is that she would have actually had to change the quote source above to get that result. Suspicious, to say the least. I differ from Michael regarding this point in that I feel that no slavery is just under any circumstances, although I find myself agreeing with him quite often. I also point out that until 1967 slavery was quite legal in Saudi Arabia. It is also practiced by muslims in the Sudan. And does the word "islam" itself not mean "slavery"?

    No basis in any proof. Muslims who free slaves are suppossed to provide for the slaves after freeing them to find work and gain status.
    Oh - really? I suppose that explains what happened to millions of black African slaves taken to the Middle East. They all became millionaire herdsmen? It's a strange thing - I don't see any of their descendants in the ME. Yet, as you insist, their masters must have helped provide for them and helped them get jobs and established. It's an odd thing, no?

    Indeed, the reason why Islam encourages the freeing and ending of slaves.
    And the taking of them - "by the right hand", as it were. The phrase only comes up about a few dozen times in the Quran, so I suppose you think we should all just ignore it.

    It is worth noting that unlike in Western countries, ex-slaves became sultans, wazirs, generals, and judges in Islamic history. Ever heard of the Mamluke Empire which were ex-slaves of war who became the rulers of Egypt. Islam's equality and perfect justice guarantees the exact same rights for black, white, and brown, without any prejudice or racism like the west.
    Or absence of them. So a few slaves rose to power in islamic nations - this, then, is a ringing endorsement of the social advantages of slavery and societal oppression? Against the veritable millions who didn't so rise, this is a drop in the proverbial bucket.

    Islam is the perfect and most just system in the world. The justice in islam cannot be rivals by any other system, especially a system like capitalism based on sucking wealth form the poor and a history of enslaving and exterminating entire races of human beings.
    Quoth the kettle. While I have no love for capitalism, you cannot seriously be proposing islam as an alternative, as islam is merely a capitalistic system nested within religious guidelines. Where exactly in the Quran does Mohammed link arms with Karl Marx and dance a showgirl waltz? "Suras for Stalin"? "Lapidation for Lenin"?

    Seriously, have you any arguments to bear, or do you deal only in abstract polemics and propaganda?

    Peace.

    Geoff

  3. #363
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    21,045
    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat
    No it isn't. Voodoo is the best.
    Who do voodoo?

    Geoff

  4. #364
    Islam is the perfect and most just system in the world. The justice in islam cannot be rivals by any other system, especially a system like capitalism based on sucking wealth form the poor and a history of enslaving and exterminating entire races of human beings.
    So then, you hipocrite get rid of your fucking computer, it was created by capitalism, get rid of posting here, it became widely used because of capitalism, wipe your ass with sand, toilet paper became what it is because of Capitalism!

    Godless

  5. #365
    DiamondHearts, answer me this one question.
    Are ALL forms of Slavery wrong?
    YES
    or
    NO

    Michael

  6. #366
    Hellenistic polytheist Hapsburg's Avatar
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    4,992
    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondHearts
    Islam is the perfect and most just system in the world. The justice in islam cannot be rivals by any other system,
    Hardly. Islam rules with extreme prejudice, and has biases against groups of people without much reason. Moreover, its logic is just as flawed as the bible and torah.

    The modern form of western 'rule by law', however, holds all accountable for thier actions, even leaders, and all people are seen as equal in the eyes of the court.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondHearts
    sultans, wazirs, generals, and judges ..... Mamluke Empire

    Islam's equality and perfect justice guarantees the exact same rights for black, white, and brown, without any prejudice or racism
    Sultans and slaves were not treated equal.

    You said that Islam encourages the ending of Slavery. But in over 1000 years it didn’t end in Islamic countries and I showed you otherwise. I showed you the EXACT YEARS when the KSA outlawed Slavery and EXACTLY when the Ottomans outlawed Slavery and yet you pretend like Islam encourages ending Slavery?

    I think we can safely agree that if Slavery was practiced in Islamic countries for over 1000 years and then it was the Europeans and Russians that ends Slavery in Islamic countries. Well, then, there is no reason to suppose the Islam encourages ending Slavery. If that were the case then Slavery would have been ended in SOMETIME DURING 1400 YEARS.

    Now we can also agree that this is irrespective of whether the Europeans and Americans are Capitalistic, Socialistic, Fascists, Communists or from Mars and is also irrespective of how horribly the Europeans and Americans treated their slaves.

    This isn’t a pissing contest.

    The Point is that under Islam Slavery existed for over 1000 years.

    - That is true.
    - There is no arguing that.
    - It doesn’t matter how nice a Master was to his Slave.
    - Slavery was not discouraged or it would have been banned at some point in over 1000 years.
    - We can agree to this as it is the true History.
    - It was outlawed because of the Europeans and Russians.

    History doesn`t lie DiamondHearts, Islamic countries practiced and profited from slavery for over 1000 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondHearts
    Islam is the perfect and most just system in the world.
    Really?
    Then why have ME countries made Slavery illegal?
    The Qur`an says Slavery should be legal so long as you follow the rules. But now it is outlawed in Islamic countries.

    So something that is LEGAL in the Qur`an is ILLEGAL in “Islamic” countries.

    Again this is true.
    There is no argument here.
    What does that say?
    It says there is something in the Qur`an that is Legal called Slavery and that civilized people have decided that is should NOT BE LEGAL.

    The Perfect and Most Just System? Even so-called Islamic countries don’t believe that or they wouldn’t have outlawed the Perfect and Just Islamic Institution of Slavery huh?

    Pull your head out of the sand,

    Michael

  8. #368
    Registered Senior Member DiamondHearts's Avatar
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    2,558
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael
    The Qur`an says Slavery should be legal so long as you follow the rules. But now it is outlawed in Islamic countries.
    Any quotes?

  9. #369
    Registered Senior Member DiamondHearts's Avatar
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    2,558
    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP
    DiamondDork attributes this quote to me. I am not sure why. Perhaps the great legalist assumes that the only objection to islam can come from myself? The really odd thing is that she would have actually had to change the quote source above to get that result. Suspicious, to say the least.
    Sorry, I guess I messed up. hahaha.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondHearts
    Any quotes?
    Sure:
    DiamondHearts in Sciforums, Religion Section on 03-19-06 at 05:00 AM “Certainly Islam only allowed one form of slavery which is prisoners of war…

    Sounds to me if one were to follow the Islamic rule on owning humans then you could get to own a Slave.

    As to my question?

    Are ALL forms of Slavery wrong?
    YES
    or
    NO

    Michael

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondHearts
    Islam is the perfect and most just system in the world.
    If the Godhead had wanted all forms of Slavery to be Illegal then It would have made sure that Mohammed was inspired to put that ALL FORMS of SLAVERY are AGAINST the wishes of the GODHEAD into the QUR’AN. But, as you DiamondHearts have said, SOME forms of Slavery (like war booty) are OK with the Godhead and therefore those forms of SLAVERY are part of the most perfect and most just system in the world.

    So why have ME Islamic countries made ALL FORMS of Slavery illegal?

    Isn’t that against the teachings in the Qur’an?


    Michael

  12. #372
    Fears over Afghan convert trial The US leads appeals to Afghanistan over a Muslim convert to Christianity who could be sentenced to death.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondHearts
    Islam is the perfect and most just system in the world.
    ???????

    Michael

  13. #373
    Registered Senior Member DiamondHearts's Avatar
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    2,558
    The western idea of slavery does not exist in Islam. You see, slaves had to earn a living from their masters, they had their own property, they had the rights of normal men except they had duties to serve master hence they were servants, and they were under protection from their enemies. Often, during the war, enemy fighters were taken as prisoners of war, and I don't disagree with this practice. It is a common practice among western nations as well. This is the only type of slavery allowed in islam. Even prisoners would be allowed to leave if they taught 10 people to read and write, spoke privately to the rulers and explained they were forced to fight, or they promised not to fight the Islamic empire again. The Prophet (s) said dress and feed your servants of what you wear and eat, and know they are your brothers in humanity. It was not the West which freed slaves, it was Islam which ended the barbaric practices of slavery and eliminated the slavery which was practiced by the west over millions of people in africa who did not have any rights and were not paid. The west massacred countless millions of people in their slave trade network, something none existent in the Middle East after the advent of Islam.

    Peace.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondHearts
    The western idea of slavery does not exist in Islam.
    Yes it does, you're just trying badly to separate indentured servitude from ordinary slavery to make this "religion of submission" seem like something it isn't. I see right through it, and others here do also. Your ideas aren't correct or ethical, and they're likely not even your ideas; just boring Semitic folklore and cultural baggage, and half-truths you parrot for sport, or worse- out of habit.

    Knock yourself out, Champ.

  15. #375
    *The slave trade in Islam was seriously different. It began in the middle of the seventh century and survives today in Mauritania and Sudan. With the Islamic slave trade, we're talking of 14 centuries rather than four.

    Whereas the gender ratio of slaves in the Atlantic trade was two males to every female, in the Islamic trade, it was two females to every male. Very large numbers of slaves were used for domestic purposes. Concubinage was for those who could afford it and there was no disrepute attached to having women as sexual objects. In fact, they married them. Some harems could be enormous. One ruler had 14,000 concubines. In one respect, women slaves were a status symbol. I hate to say it this way, but it's comparable to the way people in the West collect motorcars.* http://archive.salon.com/books/int/2...gal/index.html

    The western idea of slavery does not exist in Islam. You see, slaves had to earn a living from their masters, they had their own property, they had the rights of normal men except they had duties to serve master hence they were servants, and they were under protection from their enemies.
    Read above Twit!

    Slaves is amoral, just as is Islam, Christianity, Judaism, and any variant of fantacy religious BS.

    Godless

  16. #376
    Registered Senior Member DiamondHearts's Avatar
    Posts
    2,558
    From your same author:

    Christian societies were responsible for an engagement to slavery in its most hideous, dehumanizing form.

    Islam has been, by specific spiritual precept and in common practice, relatively humane in its treatment of slaves and its readiness to free them.

    The Koran specifically commands Muslims to treat slaves well and offers inducements in the next world to those who free their slaves.
    You see, even he says what I have been saying all this time about Islam's position on slavery.


    While at the same time he says this:

    a combination of death, infertility (naturally occurring and man made) and miscegenation must account for the disappearance of blacks and blackness from the Islamic Middle East.
    There are still black Arab people in the Middle East. Ever been to Yemen, Oman, or even Egypt?

    Peace.

  17. #377
    DiamondHearts,

    Are ALL forms of Slavery wrong?
    YES
    or
    NO

    ME Islamic countries made ALL FORMS of Slavery illegal. Isn’t that against the teachings in the Qur’an?

    YES
    or
    NO


    Michael

  18. #378
    Registered Senior Member DiamondHearts's Avatar
    Posts
    2,558
    No, not all forms are slavery are illegal, a government can capture prisoners of war from among enemy soldiers. Also, servants are a form of slavery, but they are paid, fed, clothed, and individuals in their own right. Islam does not have problems with these, but other forms are illegal.

    Scholars have ruled slavery as illegal, except prisoner of war and servants. The Quran said those who free the slaves will get great reward from Allah in this life and the afterlife.

    Peace.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondHearts
    The western idea of slavery does not exist in Islam. You see, slaves had to earn a living from their masters, they had their own property, they had the rights of normal men except they had duties to serve master hence they were servants, and they were under protection from their enemies. Often, during the war, enemy fighters were taken as prisoners of war, and I don't disagree with this practice. It is a common practice among western nations as well. This is the only type of slavery allowed in islam. Even prisoners would be allowed to leave if they taught 10 people to read and write, spoke privately to the rulers and explained they were forced to fight, or they promised not to fight the Islamic empire again. The Prophet (s) said dress and feed your servants of what you wear and eat, and know they are your brothers in humanity. It was not the West which freed slaves, it was Islam which ended the barbaric practices of slavery and eliminated the slavery which was practiced by the west over millions of people in africa who did not have any rights and were not paid. The west massacred countless millions of people in their slave trade network, something none existent in the Middle East after the advent of Islam.

    Peace.
    You are making no sense. Women and children were taken as slaves. Most wouldn’t be able to read themselves and certainly couldn’t teach another to read. Hell most Muslims can’t read.

    I think we can ALL AGREE that NONE of the women made into slaves would have been involved in making war.

    Why should they be punished by being made a slave?

    Oh, I know why, some '&%$'&% put it in a book that says Slavery is OK and God loves to make those that are the weakest and most innocent of his creations, the ones that don’t have the evil needed to kill and destroy during war into Slaves.

    Great Logic you got going there DiamondHearts, enslave the weakest and most innocent of people.

    Disgusting,

    Michael

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondHearts
    No, not all forms are slavery are illegal, a government can capture prisoners of war from among enemy soldiers. Also, servants are a form of slavery, but they are paid, fed, clothed, and individuals in their own right. Islam does not have problems with these, but other forms are illegal.

    Scholars have ruled slavery as illegal, except prisoner of war and servants. The Quran said those who free the slaves will get great reward from Allah in this life and the afterlife.

    Peace.
    I think you are making that up.
    Did Iran and Iraq take Slaves? I don`t think so.
    Does Pakistan take Indian Slaves? I don`t think so.
    Did Indonesia take Islander Slaves? I don`t think so.

    Show me the proof that there are Laws on Record in Islamic countries that says that Slavery during war is LEGAL.

    Michael

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