Did anyone get to see this program on Channel 4 (UK, Christmas Day) www.channel4.com/believe/ It was a very well developed look into modern day religion and where it comes from. The theologian did a wonderful job of not so much expressing an exact answer to the question but pulled at as much evidence as he could to get a persons own opinion to shape. From the program I realise that the past was filled with large cities that had many different cults/religions attempting to gain power. In the generation of power this meant that they would have to create a church in each of the cities their followers would move to. You could suggest that such churches in turn would ask for money from the patrons that visited which would then be pooled together and allow the religious beliefs to be taken to new cities. Basically the Money collected and the Religious growth generated power for those running their sects. However the governing bodies of the day didn't take kindly to the attempt to gain power and admittedly on occasion would destroy these sects and their followers. From what was suggested, there were many variants of text generated at this point in time. To me those texts would suggest that their slight differences were to appeal to the different lands, and the different people of different cities. This is why the Bible itself has so many contradicting chapters. It's even suggested that from such writings identifying one man as being the head of their organisation, it would have caused the authorities at the time to seek him out and deal with him appropiately to set an example for all those that would mock their power. The Theologian also did a very good job of examining how the differing Kings from 1000BC to 1600-1700AD utilised Religion to control the people. I would be interested to see what other opinions people drew from the evidence that was presented.
From what I've learned, the first five books of the Old Testament were a compilation of oral traditions dating back to pre-history. This was about 700BC. The rest of the Old Testament was collected around 200BC. The New Testament wasn't written until after Jesus' death.
marv: From what I've learned, the first five books of the Old Testament were a compilation of oral traditions dating back to pre-history. This was about 700BC. The rest of the Old Testament was collected around 200BC. The New Testament wasn't written until after Jesus' death. ************* M*W: The traditional belief was that Moses wrote the Pentateuch, although many biblical scholars have refuted this. Moses aka the Egyptian Pharaoh Akhenaten fled the throne of Egypt for a second time in 1351 BC due to his newly found religious view of sun worship that he was pushing on the Egyptians. This time when Mo fled, he led a tribe of Habiru Egyptians (ancestors of the Hebrews) with him through the Sinai plain for 40 symbolic years, which is likely referenced to mean 'lifetime.' Biblical researchers have also refuted The Exodus because they have found no archeological evidence that it happened. Mo never made it to the Promised Land we're told, so that would mean he wrote the entire Pentateuch and the Ten Commandments while the nomads were wandering in the desert. That's what nomads do -- they wander, so technically they were just living life as they normally would -- wandering. Now, Mo himself was high-tailing it outta Egypt, but unfortunately he didn't make it outta Egypt. He died mysteriously upon a mountain and god, himself, buried him, which I tend to believe that god=sun to Mo, so I interpret that as the sun decomposed him. Before his passing, Mo had those 40 years to complete his writings which would have beeen written in ancient Egyptian language. The Habiru made it to what is now Israel and they became the Hebrews. Since the OT was written in Hebrew, there had to be some rewriting and mistranslating going on. Another point I wanted to make about all that wandering. The the travel route between Alexandria to the Promised Land was along the Mediterranean seacoast about a mile or so inland. They had access to plenty of water when they needed it, but they had NO rivers to cross. So much for Cecil B. DeMille's depiction! So, what of all this? The ultimate question will come from the researchers, some who postulate that Mo, himself, was a myth! It's highly unlikely, though, as King Tut was Mo's son. If you want to read some scholarly books on Moses, I recommend: Moses and Akhenaten: The Secret History of Egypt at the Time of the Exodus, by Ahmed Osman, 2002 Egypt of the Pharaohs, by Alan H. Gardiner, 1961 Moses and Monotheism, by Sigmund Freud, 1939
Today, religion has been so marginalized that people can say things, like what you said, about how religion is something that can be used to control the poeple. However, if you study the rise and fall of Civilizations you will realize that Religion plays a far more integral role. Civilizations rise on the influence of Religion -- it is only by adopting a Moral System that society can work together and create cooperative mileau that can foster a Civilization. In their natural barbaric state, men would pillage any surplus before it could be nurtured and Civilization made impossible. Then as Civilization establishes itself, and becomes strong in its various institutions, the influence of Religion decreases. Individuals find that as they attack the institutions of Religion, they can pillage their Civilizations -- making themselves rich at the expense of everybody else. As Civilization declines, so do its Institutions. Selfish people do not get together to create and maintain institutions, but Religious People do. As Civilization declines, typically the Religious Institutions, though weak, are yet among the only institutions that survive. It is these Religious Institutions, though overwhelmed by a resurgent Barbarism, which will eventually provide the Moral Nucleus around which Civilization will eventually be able to re-emmerge. Look at Western Civilization. We only call it "Western" Civilization because Protestant Scholars shy away from the Truth which embarrasses them, that they are speaking of Catholic Civilization. You need to understand that Barbarians do not create Civilizations. What many people do not understand is that Catholicism was able to defeat Barbarism and bring us back to one of History's most enduring phases of Civilization. Instead, most people insist that The Dark Ages was the Age of the Church and not as it truly was -- The Age of Barbarism. These same people pretend that the High Middle Ages never occurred -- to them the Dark Ages was immediately followed by the Rennaissance. People can really stand to read a few more honest history books. But the problem with the English Language is that it is a Protestant Language, and the language of a People that largely conquered the World -- a sort of degenerate wave of New Barbarians, such are the British. and so you need to read Histories in the English Language with a good eye for what goes between the lines. Try to find Irish Historians!
I'm on holiday, but I've set my recorder to tape it. I'm glad it sounds like an interesting and well put together programme.
marv: M*W, I'm not quite sure I see the point you're trying to make. ************* M*W: The point was about Moses and the Pentateuch and the dates it could have been written.
"M*W: The traditional belief was that Moses wrote the Pentateuch, although many biblical scholars have refuted this. Moses aka the Egyptian Pharaoh Akhenaten fled the throne of Egypt for a second time in 1351 BC due to his newly found religious view of sun worship that he was pushing on the Egyptians. This time when Mo fled, he led a tribe of Habiru Egyptians (ancestors of the Hebrews) with him through the Sinai plain for 40 symbolic years, which is likely referenced to mean 'lifetime.'" -The sun is still here today... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! http://praiseofglory.com/ -For some reason I didnt manage to put the picture on this post, but just click the link and scroll a little, the Pope-picture, you´ll see what I mean.
Be wary of book titles like "Moses and Akhenaten: The Secret History of Egypt at the Time of the Exodus". Look for something a little more scholarly. Books exposing "secrets" bring flying saucers to mind. So does the book of Ezekiel. M*W, do you have any archeological evidence to support the claim that Moses was in fact Akhenaten? Further, Yahweh was constantly morphing as the condition, wants and needs of the Jews changed. He did not reach a relative maturity until Isaiah, long after Moses. In fact, even Moses acknowledged polytheism if you believe what Moses wrote in Exodus 20:1-6, assuming Moses did write it.
marv: Be wary of book titles like "Moses and Akhenaten: The Secret History of Egypt at the Time of the Exodus". Look for something a little more scholarly. Books exposing "secrets" bring flying saucers to mind. So does the book of Ezekiel. M*W, do you have any archeological evidence to support the claim that Moses was in fact Akhenaten? ************* M*W: marv, Ahmed Osman is one of the foremost Egyptian scholars and archeologists who discovered some ancient Egyptian documents that not only prove Moses to be Akhenaten, but also sheds some new light on the debatable origins of the Semitic religion (Jews). ************* marv: Further, Yahweh was constantly morphing as the condition, wants and needs of the Jews changed. He did not reach a relative maturity until Isaiah, long after Moses. In fact, even Moses acknowledged polytheism if you believe what Moses wrote in Exodus 20:1-6, assuming Moses did write it. ************* M*W: Who do you believe Yahweh was?
Oh! BTW, Akhenaten lived 1369-1332BC and was finally burried in the Valley of the Kings. His sarcophagus was discovered by Theodore Davis. Kinda hard for him lead the Israelites out of Egypt under those conditions. Another point is that Moses is sometimes portrayed as a black man with African features in early Hebrew statuary. Akhenaten also appeared to suffer from Marfan's syndrom, not conducive to the required forty years Moses led the Israelites assuming Moses was more than a teenager when he began. Of course that's not to say that it really was forty years. But then, some scholars think that Moses was really a composite of early religious leaders of the Canaanites anyway. Such is the reliability of the oral tradition and religious texts.
The Holy Spirit of God wrote the Bible...while someone allowing their body to be put to use by Him held the pen. I've had the Holy Spirit write things through me before...a couple of poems...well, they were meant to be letters, but in the form of prose. I was in a trance-like state while the spirit was writing through me. There was a point in the center of my forehead that hurt progressively worse the longer I "wrote". When I got up from writing to walk, my feet felt like lead...I could barely lift them off of the floor. I asked, to myself kind of, why in the hell are my feet so heavy? And God answered me that the spirit that was in me was not used to having to lug the weight of a body around so it felt heavy. I'm still not sure if I understand the dynamics of that answer but...I also noticed that my pupils became extremely enlarged while writing...almost completely blacking out my iris. It was kind of scary looking. When I first saw them in the mirror, I about shit my pants. What else...when I was writing, I noticed that my eyes weren't following the pen across the paper so much as to stare at a point in the middle of the page. My handwriting was not necessarily neat, but it was consistant...and uniform in size and spacing. The words just came...as if someone was dictating to me telepathically. Sometimes it would take me a few tries before I got it entirely correct, but I knew when I got it right because the words would line up perfectly on the page...between the margin lines on the paper...perfectly spaced and symmetrical...and poetic. What came out of me still blows me away. I'm a total math geek...an accountant...always hated poetry...could never understand it. And it wasn't just the words being eloquent or pretty, but it was their meaning...the meaning behind them was so amazing. Meaning that was realized even well after the prose was written. I wrote two "letters"...well, the first had an "introductory letter" of seven paragraphs, and then was followed by another seven paragraphs of beautiful prose...and then there was a second letter that was seven paragraphs of exactly ten lines a piece of prose. When I wrote the first letter, I had sat down to write just a little something to go on a card with some flowers that I was sending to someone. Something short and sweet like "get well soon"...lol...and 14 paragraphs later...I knew that something really weird was going on. I just kept reading it over and over again in amazement saying to myself "I didn't write this...I did not write this". I called my mom and told her that I just wrote something that I didn't write. I had no idea what was happening or how it was happening...I just knew that something was happening. It was during the writing of the second letter that I noticed all of the "trance-like" symptoms being manifest. I'm 37 years old, and completely sane. Never had anything even remotely like this happen to me before, and have never since. And I'm telling you the absolute truth. So... It can happen. Love, Lori
Who wrote the bible simple, followers from Moses to Jesus, just random ppl who were inspired by the prophets. U can look at it in a good side and even a bad side: The Bible was written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit by over 40 different authors from all walks of life: shepherds, farmers, tent-makers, physicians, fishermen, priests, philosophers and kings.... It was written over a period of some 1,500 years, from around 1450 B.C. (the time of Moses) to about 100 A.D. (following the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ).
marv: Yahwah was a fabrication like all gods. Who do you think he was? ************* M*W: She was the Serpent (or a reptilian female goddess).
marv: Oh! BTW, Akhenaten lived 1369-1332BC and was finally burried in the Valley of the Kings. His sarcophagus was discovered by Theodore Davis. Kinda hard for him lead the Israelites out of Egypt under those conditions. ************* M*W: My sources say Akhenaten ruled from 1367 BC to 1350 BC, but that's close enough to your dates to be reliable. Yes, he was buried in the Valley of the Kings. Since there has been no archeological evidence to support the Exodus, I would agree. ************* marv: Another point is that Moses is sometimes portrayed as a black man with African features in early Hebrew statuary. Akhenaten also appeared to suffer from Marfan's syndrom, not conducive to the required forty years Moses led the Israelites assuming Moses was more than a teenager when he began. ************* M*W: I've read that Akhenaten had Froelich's syndrome, a glandular disturbance. The 'forty years' may simply indicate a 'lifetime.' I believe he was a teenager of about 17 when the story begins, but all written records would indicate he was about 80 when he died. Some sources say Seti I did him in, and that would put him on the Exodus. In reality, the "exodus" was not that long of an excursion. I would give it about 30 miles total. If a person walked a mile-a-day, it would take a month. In Moses' case, it took 40 years or a lifetime. That's what I meant by '40 years' meaning 'lifetime.' Besides, they were nomads doing what comes naturally -- nomading. I just don't see that they were 'fleeing' Egypt at all. Moses may have been fleeing and hid himself among the Habiru. ************* marv: Of course that's not to say that it really was forty years. But then, some scholars think that Moses was really a composite of early religious leaders of the Canaanites anyway. ************* M*W: True. ************* marv: Such is the reliability of the oral tradition and religious texts. ************* M*W: So, that brings us to the point of the oral tradition. If these people were following the 'oral tradition,' who wrote the Torah? Also, if the Habiru were Egyptians, then Judaism would be based on the 'oral tradition' of the Egyptians and NOT the Jews!
Since the biblical Moses was born around 1600BC and Akhenaten was born around 1370BC, how can these two men, separated by 2-3 centuries, be one and the same? My sources tell me that Akhenaten, to whom the Amarna letters were written, lived during the time of King Saul and King David, much later than the biblical Moses. Saul (the Lion) and David and Beniah and Joab, and even David's father Jessie are all mentioned in the letters to Akhenaten.
Ah, history! Don't you just love the convolutions? One description of the Torah, (Talmud, or Pentateuch), can be found here. The text sounds reasonable although it lacks any outside and objective referrences. And here's one source for the Habiru. Sunni muslims will tell you that the offspring of a Sunni/Shi'a marriage will produce "bastards". I found that on a Sunni religious forum - one full of hate! There are Orthodox Jews and Reformed Jews with differing historical recollection. The same is true in Christianity. Actually, if anyone is really interested in the divergence of every religious belief system, visit the Overview Of World Religions site. Even Mormonism, with less than two centuries of history, has had its splinter groups. The only thing that can be said for Mormonism is that at least we have a more accurate and complete history of it. It's easy to see why I'm an atheist. It's like walking through a candy store and coming out empty-handed because there's so much to choose from that no decision is possible. And if each is "...the one and only true way...", why should any of them be? So, in the end, who really cares who Moses was or when he lived. Or who wrote the Bible or Qur'an or when they were written - or any religious text for that matter. The oral tradition is nothing more than the old game of Rumor we played as school children. As the myths were passed on, so-called "prophets" added and subtracted whatever they wished to suit their desires and wrote down only what they wanted.
