some questions regarding FREE WILL?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by mustafhakofi, Aug 26, 2004.

  1. mustafhakofi I sa'id so Registered Senior Member

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    599
    correct me if I'm wrong.
    heres the first querie/question.
    Free will. Christians believe that people who do not accept Jesus as the son of God will go to Hell.?
    Hell is a place defined in the New Testament of the bible which did not exist in the Old Testament.?
    Christians believe that it is not wrong for their god to send his creations to Hell because their god gave mankind "free will". ?
    Free will, according to Christians, is man's innate ability to know right from wrong and make his own choices freely without intervention from their god until they are judged by their god after death.?

    I will ask another after this part is clarified or condemned
     
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  3. mustafhakofi I sa'id so Registered Senior Member

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    as no one as queried the first I take that as being correct, here the next.
    Problem 1. Judgment and punishment.
    The holy bible describes God as omniscient, omnipotent and loving ?. Most Christians are very fond of saying how loving their god is?. If a god is all powerful, and all knowing, then he knows exactly what a person will do before he even creates them?. Before the Christian god creates a man with a soul, he knows whether or not that man will go to Hell. He is omniscient and He created Hell?. The Christian god then makes people anyway, even though he knows he will send most of them to Hell?. Free Will as defined by the Christians is therefore quite completely impossible by their definition of their god?. Why would a loving god make men and send them to hell for being exactly what he created them to be? He is perfect, so he certainly doesn't do it by accident. A god can not be loving, omniscient, omnipotent and send people to Hell. They are mutually exclusive.
     
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  5. Q25 Registered Senior Member

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    b/c hes a sadistic psycho!

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    god as defined by the bible cannot exist

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    www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/index.html click on god
     
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  7. mustafhakofi I sa'id so Registered Senior Member

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    is the re no one to callenge any of this, heres the next part.


    Problem 2. Ethnic Upbringing.
    How can Christians use free will as an excuse for their god sending people to Hell who do not believe in Jesus as the Christ? People born to Muslim parents in a Muslim country where belief in the Muslim faith is a law will almost certainly not grow up to be Christans. Why would this loving god of theirs create men and send them to Hell for growing up to be a good Muslim citizens? If the man is born in a Muslim country to Muslim parents, the chances of him changing his faith to Christianity is lower than his chances of winning the Lotto. Most people stay in the faith that they were raised in. Perhaps not the same sect, but still the same god. 99% of these "Good Christians" would be "Good Muslims" if they had been born in Iran/iraq etc Then they would be going to Hell, too. how fair is that coming from your loving god?.
     
  8. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

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    We have no choices, only options. We all die without having a choice about it. Real freedom, without knowledge, is an illusion .
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2004
  9. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

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    Hell was called "the grave" in the Old Testament. It was simply "the end". But as they became more certain that God promised life and could give life, they started accepting an afterlife. That meant "life" and "death" took on a much deeper meaning. Everything that wasn't eternal life with God would be nothing less than "hell".
     
  10. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    Your point is false because you already decided that God will send all muslims to hell.
     
  11. mustafhakofi I sa'id so Registered Senior Member

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    I am an atheist,I have decided nothing, I am pointing out the contradictions, in the christian faith.
    read it properly, it states the christian god, not allah.
    allah will not send muslims, who have not done anything against there religion, to hell.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2004
  12. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

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    So who decides who goes to hell? You?
     
  13. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    ((Mustafhakofi(

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    i sense you are trying to use reason to try and figure out the mindbendingly contradictory nonesense that the patriarchal mythographers have concocted, which has created a complet mindfuk, not only fo you, but for many many others o ver the many many centuries.

    I am encouraging you to go sraight for the juglar, and see through this silly silly myth. to do so, follow your intuition...how do i mean?

    first off you must explore the missing element. what is TABOO for the mythology you are trying to fathom..ie., the MISSING Goddess. as soon as you begin to explore this 'unspoken of shhhhhhh divorce...and 'wife' battering, things will fall into place

    example. "Hell" research the very word. it is an indo-eurppean form of 'Hol' and underworld goddess...is all

    As another poster said, Hebrews had sheol.....an sady grim resting place. the ancient patriarchal-pagan Greeks also went on about a grim shadowy place mortals went to. showing op their grim imagination me thinks

    but deeper, hell is the Judaic-christian 'STICK'..their 'carrot' being 'eternal reward' IF you accept their completely nosesensical story a male elect has concocted of som e'good god' who seeks to send his 'createes' to everlasting bonfire If they dont follow it...'have faith',...how many people have faced death terrified outta their fukin wits is anyones guess. but what do they care if they're getting the money and property huh?
     
  14. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

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    3,833
    On the contrary, hell is a place of judgment; the judgment that hangs over everyone, no matter what they believe, that God himself will let justice will prevail. If you are under a judge's authority, you don't go back to your daily life if he pronounced you guilty. You might not subject to God's authority, but you accept nature's authority - consisting of the physical world and yourself - and death. But is death justice? If not, then do you believe in justice?
     
  15. mustafhakofi I sa'id so Registered Senior Member

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    599
    obviouslly, according to you religious lot, a god.
    now here the last part.
    Problem 3. Knowing right from wrong.
    Through basic psychology we know that violence can be increased or lessened by stimulating different areas of the brain. We know that people's moods can be altered by introducing drugs, prescription or otherwise, to the brain. We know that children are extremely effected at a subconscious level by the interactions with their family and community at a very young age. How is it that the soul of a person, which is supposed to be innately aware of good and evil, so easily manipulated with material things such as Prozac?

    In short, we know for a fact that each and every adult is a product of the sums of their genetic brain structure, their very early formative years, and random luck such as being born to extremely violent, crime ridden, poverty stricken neighborhoods, or to extremely affluent parents who are politically connected with the community.

    Therefore, a person who is born into an underprivileged drug addicted, and abusive family will have an enormous chance of leading a life full of angry resentment and serious brushes with the law as well as violating the ten commandments with wild abandon. Such a person would be much more likely to go to Hell than a fortunate soul who is born to an extremely well adjusted suburban upper-middle class family which raises their children in the Christian church.

    Go ask all the "evil monsters" who deserve the death penalty in America's prisons about their childhoods. While you're at it, check out their IQ's. IQ tests are not at all a test of education. They contain no vocabulary or math question, but simply are comprised of problem solving exercises. Low IQ's indicate an inability to think in a logical manner, and therefore to create rational thoughts and decisions. Have you ever met an atheist with a low IQ? Have you ever met a relgious Fundamentalist with a high IQ? Do retarded people go to hell for not being good Christians? If not, then at what particular IQ level does this god start issuing exemptions? Why is it that this Christian god who professes to love the poor drops the greatest statistical chances of being patently violent and "ungodly" upon the poor people He supposedly loves so much?

    The religious say it all the time. "There, but for the grace of God, go I." If they consider it God's grace that they were not so afflicted, then how is it that they can forgive their god for so afflicting others? How can a man who's children survived a hurricane say that God was watching out for them and offer prayers of thanks when his neighbor's children are dead from the same storm? Did those other children not deserve God's love so much as his? It is not conceptually sound that children who endure hell on earth should be sent to hell after death by a god who professes to love them so.

    there you have it.
    with thanks to WarOnFaith
     
  16. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

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    Are those rhetorical?

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    God by definition does not need to be forgiven. Although the Christian explanation is ultimately rationally unsound, we see that God has every "right" to take/spare the life of whom He will. See here:

    Romans 9
    14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
    "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
    16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[7] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
    19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[8] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?


    This chapter should address your questions to some extent, although as you can see:

    9One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "

    This is a COP OUT. The writer, unable to explain his way out of the moral dilemma that arises, says quickly "DON'T BLAME GOD BECAUSE THAT'S JUST THE WAY THINGS ARE".


    A shameful exegesis.
     
  17. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    2,669
    As someone comes to the full knowledge of God's eternal being and perfection, their true being and state of soul is eventually manifested. It's less a matter of God picking and choosing but God revealing their true nature, while at the same time allowing us to repent.
     
  18. mario Registered Senior Member

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    John 14:6 says..."Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by Me." That sounds pretty straightforward. If you don't believe in christ as the savior then you're sol. Kinda unfair for those who died before jesus was born or in another part of the world that had never heard of him or was taught something else.
     
  19. fahrenheit 451 fiction Registered Senior Member

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    southstar:
    Thank you. We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view.
    Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.
     
  20. Laser Eyes Registered Senior Member

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    Your first assumption is wrong. There is no such thing as hell. God did not create such a place. It is a concept that was invented by the empire of false Christianity to control people.
     
  21. mis-t-highs I'm filling up Registered Senior Member

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    firstly are you an atheist, as musta and I are, so if you not, then explain how so many xians believe that the serpent, in the garden of eden was the devil.
     
  22. Laser Eyes Registered Senior Member

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    92
    What difference does it make? If I am right and there is no hell then how do my beliefs affect that fact? Do you categorise people depending on what they believe and deal with them accordingly? Why not just deal with the issue?

    I didn't say there was no devil. Indeed there is a devil who tempted Eve just as the Bible says. My statement is there is no such place as hell as the false Christian churches teach. There is no such thing as a place of eternal torment for sinners.
     
  23. mis-t-highs I'm filling up Registered Senior Member

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    436
    just interested, as someone had said you were an atheist, but became a believe. which is interesting only because it's impossible (you could not have been a true atheist)

    Our English word "Hell" appears in the Old Testament Scriptures thirty-one times.
    The Hebrew word "Sheol" appears in the Old Testament in all sixty-five times.
    and the greek word "Hades" is used to translate the Hebrew word "Sheol"
    are we reading the same bible
     

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