"Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable. A man full of faith is simply one who has lost (or never had) the capacity for clear and realistic thought. He is not a mere ass; he is actually ill." H.L. Mencken Faith:. There has never existed in the world anything more intensely vile, contemptuous, and dangerous to freedom, peace and progress as deeply held blind faith in organized religions and holy dogmas. The Christian dominated society of this country has painted a lovely picture of the faithful flock and how deserving faithful people are of praise and respect. Beneath the Xian whitewash is the plain hard truth. If a person treated his children half as cruelly as the supposedly divine and omnibenevolent Judeo-Christian blood god has treated his children, the Christians would be out to give him the death penalty. Does belief in cruel gods create cruel people, or do cruel people simply make their gods in their own likeness? Faith is the nemesis of logic. Where there is religious faith, there can not be logic. The two are quite completely mutually exclusive. In every endeavor other than religion, if a person accepts things as being true with no quality evidence to support such beliefs, then the person is considered foolish and even contemptible by society. When acting exactly the same way regarding religion, the person is considered as perfectly normal. There is in faith an immunity to reality. Faith is the destroyer of science and progress. Faith in gods creates a horrible aversion to change. The status quo is the rule of thumb and the "faithful" conservative Xian's morals are the worn out morals of liberals from forty or so years before him. Yet along he goes dragging his feet. "Why free the slaves? It's in the bible." The faithful Xians were enraged when Ben Franklin invented the lightning rod. "It's a sin" they screamed. "God surely controls the lightning and who are you to interfere?" There was Galileo who was tried by the Catholic Church for sacrilege because he claimed the world was round and that the earth orbited the sun, and not the other way around as the bible says. The Fundies are this very minute all across the country attempting to remove evolution from the science books, even though it is established as fact. The list is endless. Religion and science are mutually exclusive. Christian Science is nothing but an oxymoron. Faith is the slaughterer of freedom. If there is a concept more hateful to the hearts of the faithful flock than freedom, then it is unimaginable what it would be. Truly the flock pays due lip service to freedom, but their every endeavor is to control and outlaw it. To pass laws to prohibit sexual preferences in the bedroom of two adults is nothing but pure tyranny. Why do these people care who you're sleeping with? What business is it of there's? The faithful claim that they simply want to live life according to the rules of their god, but they want nothing short of making everyone live by those exact rules. Everywhere you find these faithful people you will see them attempting to control the other people around them. They even have the audacity to claim they are persecuted, simply because people resist them and rail against their bids for totalitarian control. The faithful claim they are patriots, but they resemble old Russian Communism much more closely than capitalism. Faith is the destructor of individuality. Everywhere the faithful are trying to enact their version of God's word into law and force the rest of society to be just like them. The faithful proudly claim the title of "Sheep". What more needs be said? Faith is the fountainhead of ignorance. The faithful everywhere cast off logic and science as the temptations of Satan. Any science, theory, or fact which contradicts their religion is perceived to be purely evil. This inevitably leads to the embracing of myths and ignorance and the shunning of rational thinking. Faith is the procreator of intolerance. Faith like nothing else strengthens intolerance and helps it breed and spread. What else would come about from people who claim as divinely inspired a book which espouses slavery, homophobia, murder, infanticide, genocide, racism, rape and kidnapping in the name of a loving god?
Ditto. (Sorry about the one-worder, but it describes my feelings so well. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! )
Faith does not take away clear and realistic thought. Men (and woman) have done horrible things others and to themselves. Who is to blame? Christianity? or the ones commiting the acts? Christianity tells us to love one another, even to love our enemies cause we are all sinners. False. False. False. Faith and logic work well together. Though "logic" based on what society thinks is illogical unless society has it right. What is considered to one to be perfectly normal, doesn't mean that it to everyone else must be considered perfectly normal. Religion in itself, should be used as a tool for life-guidance, not a tool to know whether or not the earth orbits the sun. Most statements in the Bible regarding science has to do with God's superiority, it's not to show how the world works, it's to show that God is above all. Many passages in the Bible admits that they don't know how it works, "Who can measure the height of the heaven?" and so on. The Bible gives advices for life, and how we should live life, our life doesn't depend on if the earth orbits the sun or not. We live 80 years (at most 120) if we are lucky, we should spend these years on love and respect, so that other people also can live life to the fullest. Do the laws that we shouldn't rape and do sexually immoral deeds decrease your freedom? We get freedom by the law not without it. Cause by following the law, we can do whatever we want to do. If we don't follow the law, then we get caught in situations that are bad for us. The Bible even warns us about the freedom that is accessable through the Christian belief, that we shouldn't use it to sin. Is it wrong to steal? Do it destroy our individuality if we pass a law which states that you shouldn't steal? Is it right that your own individuality gets enhanced while others loose theirs? Scientifical Facts, which really are facts and are proven without any doubt, aren't to be considered temptations of Satan, but if someone looks at those facts and think "God does not exist" then that is a temptation by Satan. If we look at reality, then it doesn't say much. We are free to interpret it as we like. The same with facts. Remember though, science shouldn't make interpretations beyond the facts, and then state their interpretation as a fact. Science cannot say "God does not exist". Because that is not a fact available to them. (and to my belief it will never be available to them, cause it is not a fact). Faith is not the creator of intolerance. All the above examples are things that human beings have to deal with, nothing tells us that those who have faith are more likely to commit a murder or to be racist. We should tolerate and love eachother. We are all sinners (allthough all is not murderers and racists).
Cyperium you are looking thought the eyes of a blind person(blind faith),take a long and leering look at the world, past and present. you will see the light and it wont be coming from any god. The word "faith" when applied to religion is being grossly misused. Faith is believing that something is true even though there is no evidence to support it. Absolutely no scientific claim made in the world is believed to be true by the scientific community, the press, and the majority of the public, including even the most rabid xians/muslims, until other respected and acknowledged scientists can repeat the experiments and come up with the same results as those who claim new discoveries. Even with the overwhelming amount of scientific evidence supporting evolution, xians/muslims fight tooth and nail in their vain and pointless attempts to discredit all of evolution's applicable scientific evidence. How is it that the wild and entirely unsupported claims of the xians/muslim about blood gods, demons, and pits of fire are so easily swallowed by so many and contested by so few? Due to the fact that there is no evidence to support the validity of Xianity/islam, and that there is such a huge amount of evidence directly conflicting with Xianity/islam, the word "delusion" is more appropriately applied where the word "faith" is much more commonly used. Having a delusion is believing something is true even though there is no affirmative evidence to support a contention of belief, and/or the existence of significant evidence to the contrary of the professed belief. xians/muslim have no "faith in God", they have a delusion of God. They are, quite factually, mentally ill. BTW.christian science is a oxymoron,( faith and logic.your having a laugh.) speak for your self, (I am no sinner, and I dont think any other atheist is either, we respect life to much.) sinner: One who has sinned; especially, one who has sinned without repenting; hence, a persistent and incorrigible transgressor; one condemned by the law of God. I/we have no belief in a god/gods, so therefore cannot sin.
Substitute "faith" with "capitalism", or "electricity" and make claims about those if you want to. Faith should be a relationship between you and God, made possible only by God. That's not what miss-t describes above. What she's talking about is Mencken's version of faith, which doesn't come from God. Anyway, I don't think this thread was ever intended to provoke serious discussion. I'm surprised our moderators let it pass.
Why would I look at the world, when all I need is right here? Faith means to me what it means to me. Facts are fine. But some things hasn't been revealed to us. Is there impossible that there are things that only show up once? What if we can test it once and have all the facts to show that it really was there, would we not be able to prove it unless we were able to test it one more time? What if they find the graviton, but then aren't able to repeat the tests again, are we to consider the graviton as unfound then? We have human understanding of things, should we test and repeat that time after time to be able to understand that it is reality that we see? How come when many atheists describe religion they only mention blood, demons and fire? Delusion is when someone believes something that is obviously wrong. That the person himself should know is obviously wrong but still believes it to be correct - to my definition of it. Faith is another deal. That doesn't say anything to me. Sinner = one who has sinned. I agree (obviously). You say you aren't a sinner? Have you ever stolen anything? Have you ever hurt anyone (physically or emotionally)? Have you ever lied to anyone? Can you be honest with yourself, and tell everyone what you have done wrong? Or even THAT you have done wrong? You are deeply mistaken.
Cyperium: sinner: One who has sinned; especially, one who has sinned without repenting; hence, a persistent and incorrigible transgressor; one condemned by the law of God. we have all done wrong there is no doubt, and I am sure the preacher will agree. but I /we cannot sin as we have no belief in a god/gods
The meaning of a sin, is still the meaning that applies to us all, whether or not we believe in God. To Gods view you would still have sinned. But mercy is above the law. God understand that we are weak. the preacher said that he didn't think any atheist had sinned because they respect life too much. I will take into consideration what he said later, but this shows that he thought he had not sinned using the definition of a sin (which is "to do bad things to yourself or/and to others" if you ask me). We shouldn't get caught up in words, a sin is name for something that is bad for you and others. Of course, I can only give you my own understanding, I can't give you the absolute truth since I don't know what it is. I would say it's God, but you would probably disagree. If asked I will still say that it's God. When other people say it's certainly not, then I feel the need to tell them, just to give them my view. I feel it's true, thus I say it. I don't lie and twist the truth just to be "right". If someone comes with an idea that I feel is better than my own, then I have to consider that. It doesn't mean that I have to believe it if I don't feel it's good for me. But as far as this idea of "no sinner if no belief" goes I must disagree.
Pavlosmarcos Your bold of the last part of the definition has no effect. It does not override the first. It is those who sin that are condemned by the law of God, and those who sin without repenting, persistently and incorrigibly, who are condemned by God himself. Sin is not only towards God, it is also sin to do something that you know is wrong, against yourself or against someone else. What does your conscience say, that you are a model of righteousness, love and morality? If your conscience tells you you do wrong, how much more aren't you wrong for denying that you have sinned? Even though you don't believe in God, you are still accused of being a sinner, as we all are.
let them re-define the word. as then I will accept I have sinned. I have done wrong(a moral obligation), in the eyes of my family, friend, my teachers, even the law, that cannot be denied, I do have regrets like any normal human being, but I have not sinned in the eyes of a god/gods. Sin: A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God. A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience.
I have bad news for you - what you consider morally wrong, is what God considers sin. You might not believe in His laws, but you are guilty by your own, and accountable for them. As Paul says to the Galatians: "If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker". It is by what you consider wrong that you make it clear you recognize there is a law, even though you don't recognize where that law comes from, or call transgressing it "sin". Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Jenyar, It is impossible for an atheist to commit a sin. Sin is an imaginary concept created by theists to represent disobedience of the commands allegedly issued by their hypothetical gods. Sin only has meaning to theists. Since atheists hold no such fantasies then the concept cannot be applied to them. For example some children believe that Christmas gifts come from Santa Claus, while others believe otherwise. In this case SC is only relevant to those who believe. In the same way sin is only relevant to theists who believe in sin.
To the thread starter: You titled your thread FAITH (blind faith), please take heed to likewise qualify all instances of faith as used in your initial posting, else your post is irrational.
thefountain, The topic is religious faith which is blind faith. The qualification at the beginning and in the title should be sufficient for anyone to understand the type of faith that is being discussed. To qualify it at every occurence in this topic would be redundant.
fountain head, I am interested in you conclusion. that its not blind faith, could you clarify it for me. thank you
"Delusions are often functional. A mother's opinions about her children's beauty, intelligence, goodness, et cetera ad nauseam, keep her from drowning them at birth." ~Lazarus Long "Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child." ~Lazarus Long "Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself is not sinful -- just stupid.)" ~Lazarus Long
TheFountainHead, Why? Assuming theistic religions here – can anyone effectively demonstrate that a god exists? To date no one has succeeded and that means that only blind faith can sustain such beliefs.
