08-27-01, 04:29 PM #1
There is no God?
When I was a kid going to Sunday school. I couldn't believe the B.S. I use to love science and how it dispelled God. But to please my grandmother I finished and I was confirmed. The whole time lying.
Then five months ago my girlfriend of eight years died. Now I'm even more confused. Because now I want to believe in God and one day see my girlfriend once again. But then I get pissed off that she was taken away and who do you blame God. Then all the years of science come back to mind and I'm blaming someone that doesn't exist.
Blind faith just doesn't do it for me! I need something more tangible. Something I can touch or at least see. As far as I can tell religion was made up to give the weak, strength. The fearless, fear. The lost, direction. But above all a basic moral structure.
08-27-01, 05:38 PM #2
I´m so sorry...
It must have been , and still is I guess, a devastating experience to lose a loved person after so many years.
God is a very personal experience and can never be proven in the physical world with science. However, "God", or whatever we prefer to call it, is an entity of great love and compassion built up from the energies of this universe. We are all part of that energy. We, togehter , are God.
But that is of course my personal experience, you may have another one, just as valid as mine.
08-27-01, 05:59 PM #3
You might take a look at this <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1885849524/qid=998952804/sr=1-2/ref=sc_b_2/002-0807048-4460054">book</a>. It goes on solid research and interviews with scientists about the evidence of God.
God as represented in the Bible is not against science--and many good scientists attribute their discoveries to their Biblical beliefs. This is a good place to start.
08-27-01, 08:41 PM #4
What religions do very well is thrive on the weak, frail, and vulnerable, especially at times when someone has died.
Since early times man has had enormous difficulties coming to terms with the non-existence of someone loved, there is that overwhelming feeling of helplessness and frustration at not being able to bring back the loved one who has died.
These feelings are the root cause of every religion. Once man realized that he could do nothing to bring back the dead he then dreamed of other ways that he could reach them. From that came the ideas of an after-life, and in that dream came satisfaction and a level of contentment that gave hope and enabled man to continue life with an expectation that he would one day see those loved ones again.
Following the ideas of an after-life came other ideas of a great benefactor who would protect man from harm. This too is based purely on early man’s vulnerability to agony, pain, suffering, and numerous diseases (that we have now mostly cured). He again needed something to believe that life could not be so bad and that a father-like figure would one day give a relief to such a terrible life. From these desires the ideas of gods were manufactured.
Right up to the present time no one has ever been able to show that an after-life or any gods exist or can exist. With such overwhelming lack of evidence it is only reasonable to assume that such thoughts are no more than self-delusions.
To face the obvious and hard facts of death and the non-existence of someone loved can be hard and requires courage. I cannot offer you anything that can replace the dreams of an after-life or gods since there is nothing there but words; those are the facts of life and death.
But science offers hope since it is the search for truth and knowledge; it is based on facts and proofs, whereas religions are based on delusions, false hopes and dreams. The two can never be mixed and their aims are mutually exclusive.
When someone offers you something fantastic then question it, and ask what proof is there that this thing is real? If no proof is offered then decline the fantasy and request they work harder to offer something real and worthwhile.
Science can be hard but the answers it provides are real and worthwhile.
08-27-01, 09:23 PM #5
wrong wrong wrong!Since early times man has had enormous difficulties coming to terms with the non-existence of someone loved, there is that overwhelming feeling of helplessness and frustration at not being able to bring back the loved one who has died....These feelings are the root cause of every religion.
08-27-01, 09:51 PM #6
Re: wrong wrong wrong!
The very essence of humanity denies the answer of death being final.
These thoughts and feelings could not have evolved, and these feelings all point to a God who is there,
Where does our sense of right and wrong, of justice, of revoltion over death, or of <B>turmoil over the severe injustice of this world</B> come from?
You deny everyone's humanity so you can have your "truth and knowledge". Truth and knowledge doesn't answer our humanity. Truth and knowledge doesn't answer who we are. Truth and knowledge are a dead end to a world of people needing justice and comfort.
"Facing a cold hard truth" is just another way of saying "deny your own humanity".
Making the world lesser won't make science more powerful, and doesn't help you to control it. You have no answers for real human problems, so don't pull others down with you.
08-27-01, 11:38 PM #7
I may be wrong but my view is that if a church (a minister) preys on the weak (minded or otherwise) that minister should be immediatly fired. In the OT such ministers (prophets) were put to death.
Science and religion are two unrelated topics. One does not disprove the other. Why any of you have come to the conclusion that they conflict in any significant way is beyond me.
Until I can part the mighty mississippi I don't expect to convince you that God is real since apparently it's really a stretch to see how he works for those who reject him(her whatever) because they're above such things.
He sends the prophets they're murdered. He sends 10 plagues and parts the Red Sea they deny him. He comes himself and does miracles and they still deny it. They murder him. He writes a book, it's burned.
08-28-01, 12:37 AM #8
"He sends the prophets they're murdered. He sends 10 plagues and parts the Red Sea they deny him. He comes himself and does miracles and they still deny it. They murder him. He writes a book, it's burned. "
I take it from the way that is writen you must be an eyewitness...otherwise he did nothing because he doesn't exist.
Back to the topic at hand:
I don't know about no God...I certainly agree there is no Christain God....at least I hope so, otherwise I'm a creation of a cruel idiot...and that would suck, I'd be making reservations in Hell....wow imagine spending eternity with God bother's now there's MY hell defined. But I have faith that if there is a superior inteligents its laughing as hard as I am at all the morons (no apololgies, if you can read you have no excuse for being a christain) jumping on the Jesus wagon.
08-28-01, 02:25 AM #9
The point is that there is nothing I can do to prove to you that God exists. People will believe what they want to believe and will find millions of reasons to believe it.
"God the cruel idiot."
Yeah. A God who allows man to be wicked and then lets them into Heaven anyway if they just stop thinking they deserve something is one cruel God.
It's been over 2000 years since the phrase "ex nihlio" was written in Genesis 1:1 and scientists are just now begining to think and prove that the universe came from nothing.
I'm sure it was just a fluke. Moses didn't actually "know" the universe came from nothing. Now the scientists are hard at work trying to prove that there was no need for a cause, no need for God. Good luck and have fun.
Maybe in another 2000 years they'll have the answer. I'm not going to wait.
08-28-01, 02:30 AM #10
Not quite around the table, but various comments
Wow ... um ... okay, I'll start with the shorter post:many good scientists attribute their discoveries to their Biblical beliefs.
The point I'm after here is that it's true that many good scientists attribute their discoveries to Biblical beliefs. They also adapt their personal theologies to accommodate the knowledge they've acquired. As Patman noted in his topic post, science helped him dispel the notion of the God to which he had been introduced. This is simply the way it played out; had God, as such, communicated Himself better to Patman, then perhaps science would have reinforced his understanding of God; but if God exists, It has determined this path for Patman.
Often what those scientists cite is the work ethic they learned from their faith; without it, they would not have made their discoveries. And, certainly, scientists attempting to verify the Bible is perfectly acceptable, and given the relative periods of the Bible and the development of the scientific method and its accompanient standard, it is fair to assert that these investigations into the Bible produced many interesting and compelling results. But none have proven God, nor the Great Flood in the strictly Biblical context (e.g.--acceptable to the literalist); I suppose I should buy the book to learn in what context these discoveries relate to the Biblical belief that inspired them, but if you'd be so kind as to supply us a couple of examples specifically for examination as relates your assertion and its context, we'd be grateful.
One of the reviews at the Amazon page noted that scientists like Stephen Hawking discuss how their discoveries relate to the big questions we all ask. In that sense, does this mean that Hawking is relating to the same perspective of God that any other person holds? That basis for relation is as important to the equation as the discovery itself.WRONG. Completely, utterly, and entirely WRONG. You are a shortsighted bigot for saying such things. You deny the very essence of humanity because of your stupid and ill-thought-out ideals ....The very essence of humanity denys the answer of death being final.These thoughts and feelings could not have evolved, and these feelings all point to a God who is there, and made things that should be better than this.Where does our sense of right and wrong, of justice, of revoltion over death, or of turmoil over the severe injustice of this world come from?
To be more primal about it, our revulsion toward death is inherent in our living experience. The religiously-inspired considerations derive from psychological devices designed to combat the overwhelming fear of death that would otherwise keep us distracted.You deny everyone's humanity so you can have your "truth and knowledge".Truth and knowledge doesn't answer our humanity. Truth and knowledge doesn't answer who we are. Truth and knowledge are a dead end to a world of people needing justice and comfort."Facing a cold hard truth" is just another way of saying "deny your own humanity".Making the world lesser won't make science more powerful, and doesn't help you to control it.You have no answers for real human problems, so don't pull others down with you.
So, accepting the difference 'twixt speech and the typewritten word, do people in real life get flustered and call you "Frank"?
KelvinB--I may be wrong but my view is that if a church (a minister) preys on the weak (minded or otherwise) that minister should be immediatly fired.Why any of you have come to the conclusion that they conflict in any significant way is beyond me.Until I can part the mighty mississippi I don't expect to convince you that God is real since apparently it's really a stretch to see how he works for those who reject him(her whatever) because they're above such things.He sends the prophets they're murdered. He sends 10 plagues and parts the Red Sea they deny him. He comes himself and does miracles and they still deny it. They murder him. He writes a book, it's burned.
Welcome to Sciforums, sir ... we hope you enjoy your time here.
I'm not ignoring your post ... I can't think of any issues to take up from it at the time. Welcome to the Forums ....
Last edited by Tiassa; 08-28-01 at 09:48 AM.
08-28-01, 05:03 AM #11
To a God unknown
If I may ...
My ex and myself were the known Gods who created our son. There was none, we came together in love ... then there was one. ( a divine experience) I am the tangible god who interacts with my beloved son. I am not invisible, confusing nor tyrannical. I act from my own natural human empathy, compassion and inner being, not from an incoherent politico/religious book of antiquity. I draw knowledge and the wisdom of experience from the Gods who created me - my parents and the Gods before them.
Taking this approach back into the ancient mists of time, I am comfortable with the idea of natural evolution, inclusive of myself.
I have a hope that our watchmaker is not blind, but this hope can never blind me to the revelations of science, my appreciation of the great human minds of the present and the past, nor to the bloodshed, inhumanity, futility and total uncertainty of faith.
Taking ones eyes off the enjoyment and experience of the present and material, and focusing ones life on the hereafter and immaterial, is enslavement of ones human potential to an unknown god.
08-28-01, 11:56 AM #12
My ex and myself were the known Gods who created our son.
Often what those scientists cite is the work ethic they learned from their faith;
In that sense, does this mean that Hawking is relating to the same perspective of God that any other person holds?
And why not? It's called learning.
We fear death because it is unknown.
And you can't say the Bible, as history demonstrates the answer for any real human problem is probably detrimental to humans.
Our extremely powerful evolutionary survival instincts that have managed so well to keep us alive must inevitably conflict with having to face eventual death.
Overcoming those difficulties through hard work, study, experimentation, research and curiosity is how we solve problems and find answers.
Believing that an invisible and immaterial fantasy will save us is the height of self-delusion. Trying to actively convince others of such fairy stories is immoral.
08-28-01, 12:03 PM #13
Stretch, Hi old friend, some nice comments.
Tiassa, I think you posed me some questions there, or at least I feel the need to add more, but thanks for expanding on my usual overly brief statements. I guess I've come to expect you to add the real flesh to the skeletons I create. I have to do some real work now but I'll come back later.
08-28-01, 10:46 PM #14
Thanks for sharing
I realize now just how badly I need to learn how to use this computer. I apologize for my lack of ability!
Bebelina , Thanx for the kind words and thought.
Dan1123, You mention a book!?
Cris , It's not that they pray on these people when someone dies, just in general. But in a way I relate this to the gangs and biker clubs popping up all over the place. Don't mean to offend! But it seems to me that these people are "weak" in some way. Be it loneliness, lack of a loving family, or just to be part of something. The church is the oldest club on the planet.
Dan 1123, Dan,Dan Please don't get your panties in a bunch. Name calling WON'T change peoples views. (I'm guessing your somewhat religious and opinionated.) What is the essence of humanity? FEAR TRUTH AND KNOWLEDGE!
Cris, sorry I got you into that one. MY BAD! , You handle yourself very well. thanx for not resulting to anything juvenile.
"AN OPEN MIND IS THE GATEWAY TO KNOWLEDGE!" SORRY DAN!
KalvinB , Sorry to offend anyone but it seems since it's inception the church has always preyed on the weak. THAT'S A LOT OF BULLETS!
Rambler, Thanx for the input. I would like to believe in a higher power and Christians don't have it. There would be no hell if there was an "ALL FORGIVING GOD !!!!!" I have to forgive everyone that F**cked ME OVER and he can't forgive one! (Lucifer)
KalvinB, Sorry that it's been years. But I don't recall what "ex nihlio" Genesis 1:1 is? Sorry. But the thought of people 2000 years ago believing that we came from nothing is not a stretch. All these baby factories that live in projects and pump out kids they can't afford might just believe the same. Sorry don't mean to offend.
TIASSA, I don't smoke anymore. But I might have to. Your opinions are well thought out and very intelligent. I just hope I never rub you the wrong way. Because I can't match brain pans with you. Keep up the good work and thank you very much for the welcome! I hope to push myself and others towards a better understanding of life. KNOWLEDGE! Sorry Dan.
Stretch, Congratulations on the birth of your son. Forget what anyone says on the matter. To this child you are a God in one sense or another. ENJOY LIFE! ENJOY the LIFE you brought into this WORLD!
DAN, DAN, DAN, Prove that someone had the power to create the universe and time itself and I'll personally ask Stretch to denounce his status as a God.
Everyone! Yeah, YOU TO DAN.
I'm sorry if this is out of format but I did the best I knew how!? I'm new at this but will learn with time and hopefully your patiences.
But please remember a couple of things we are all in this together weather we like it or not and KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!
Last edited by Patman; 08-28-01 at 10:56 PM.
08-28-01, 11:45 PM #15
Nice summary, and a good first thread. Most threads are not quite so heated. Many make you learn, others are good fun, and others make you think, and others might make you angry.
But science, the need for proof, and the nead to reason are common for most. The battle between reason and faith is alive and well in the religious forums and there are some great articles in the science forums.
Most here are normal, ordinary people, except perhaps tiassa, who is something special.
Enjoy your time here, even if you don't contribute much there is much to be learnt from others.
08-29-01, 02:47 AM #16
Define weak. It's a very broad unfound statement you present.
Children in religious families are raised on religion just as children in non religious families are raised on their views. To claim one is brainwashing and the other is not is pure rubbish. Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy...yeah you're all so innocent. My parents (religious) refused to let us believe in such things. If they lied about those what credibility do they have with the Bible? As least they didn't knowingly lie to us. And so far I find they havn't lied about religion either.
I could as easily claim it's the weak minded who blindly accept the crap that is found in science and history books used from early childhood.
I don't care that Creation isn't in the books. I just expect as much doubt cast on evolution as evidence in the books. Or at least the book makers to stop presenting it as proven fact. Give both sides or remove it all. I don't want to hear a million variations of how the universe came to be. An honest look at one view would suffice. We don't even get that.
Ex Nihlio simply means "from nothing" and the Bible is the only religious text that presents that idea. Many Christian denominations today deny the idea. Only the old school churches still teach it. None of the new age ones.
08-29-01, 08:02 AM #17
KalvinB, "Weak" Sorry for lack of a better word I tend to group a lot of people as weak.
Weak- Down on your luck.
- In Need of support from other then your family.
- people that just go along with the program.
-people that don't question anything.
I hope that helped.
Question everything because the only true answers are the one's we find for ourselves.
08-29-01, 10:04 AM #18
Mornin' Dan, how goes?Work ethic? How about the philosophy grounded in an intelligent being who does things ingeniously and elegantly that guides their discovery. This is what I see most often.
This model of the Universe described a definitively finite body in which the stars we see were set upon the interior of a hollow sphere, inside which the observable solar system orbited the Earth as the center of God's creation. Intricate, and observationally arguable at the time of its conception, Primum Mobile is observably incorrect. The scientists who achieved this used Biblical ideas as evidence--e.g. the firmament of the heavens.
So I'm wondering about the direct applications; if we must credit Christianity and the Bible for making a scientific discovery possible, or for predating a scientific discovery in its faith assertions, what would be the best example of that you know of?You are so mired in human perspectives of God.If religion is all humanity trying to reach God it will fail. If it is God trying to reach humanity it will succeed.Christianity does not have the marks of humanity trying to reach God.The innate sense of God's presence in the design of the world is enough to get most people to look towards a creator--however, it takes God coming to us in order to go the rest of the way.Why would our evolution place any ideas of perfection or goodness in our minds? Think about it before saying that it helps the species survive--because it does not.In fact, death would help the survival of the species because it reduces the population and takes out the weaker parts of a species.Justice, equal rights for all, and our value for human life actually hurts our species in the long run from an evolutionary standpoint.And if you say it is us now who control our own evolution, you should be very frightened because it isn't the first worlds' best and brightest who are doing all the breeding--that is where the population has stopped or is decreasing.It is more than fear. We look at other people and clench our teeth at the injustice of death, we look at someone who died with the horror of seeing someone who is cold and lifeless. The fact of death pulls at us in a way that we know that this shouldn't happen.This shows why man still needs God, even with all our knowledge and learning in science. This has no forseeable end in the future.Only in your myopic view of history, which apparently doesn't include the Bible's role in liberating women and slaves, helping the poor, creating the first true democratic republic, creating the first hospitals to help the sick, and creating the first schools to teach.Humanity is a lot better off because of the Bible and because of Christians who follow it.
08-29-01, 02:05 PM #19
I would assert that superstition toward those mysteries greater than our capabilities creates that innate sense of God. It all comes down to fear.
And thus man invents God. Just like fear of fire invokes a fire god in the primitive psyche in order to establish terms of human relationship to fire, so, too, do we invent a God to defeat death and grant us that which we crave most: life.
This is the reason why I recommended a book based on scientific research that points to God as found in the Bible. What could Patman get from a couple of paragraphs written in a forum? Would that really help? What could Patman get from some statements about God being real from someone who is basically a stranger--no matter how much evidence supports the claim. Only with a some support for belief outside any holy book or statement of dogma could be an honest basis for having any comfort in an invisible deity.
08-29-01, 07:50 PM #20Originally posted by dan1123
People do not invent all-knowing, all-seeing, perfect judges who they cannot get away from.
Sure, it may be nice for a dictator to have such a god under his control, but that would mean the dictator invented the god, or at least had power over it.
I would like to say that it isn't good for someone to believe in any religion solely based on the comfort that it gives. What kind of comfort would it be anyway?
If the god only existed based on that you'd really like to have him/her/it exist, you're just fooling yourself and setting yourself up for disappointment.